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Obsolete mooring set-up


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First, thanks for the mostly on point and thoughtful replies. I have less time for the newbies, feeble and hide bound comments but I suppose you take the rough with the smooth.

 

I do actually know horse towing was done from the centre post. Doubt I'll be doing much of that unless diesel gets much more dear though!  Similarly, not planning on towing a butty which would call for cross tying to dollies.

 

No reason properly sized and affixed marine cleats can't be just as robust as T studs, centre post and dollies.  I wasn't really planning on screwed in lightweight stainless fittings.

 

The two centre cleats will be affixed to the roof at the sides not the gunwales.  This would also reduce/prevent the lines from fouling anything steer on the roof. This would also make spring lines effective when used with less roof fouling. Similarly, positioning the bow cleats just where the bow starts to flare out would reduce paint issues and make the cleats easier to reach from both the well deck and the bank. 

 

In practice cleats are very versatile to use.  Most mooring lines used on vessels equipped with cleats have an appropriately sized loop spliced into one end. This loop can be either dropped over the clear or taken ashore and dropped over (often with a cow hitch) over a bollard.  In locking, the line would normally be looped securely through the on board cleat using a cow hitch and the line tended from the lock side. 

 

In general, my opinion is cleats are more versatile, easier to use and more fit for today's purpose - which is securing boat to bank not towing.  My opinion, admittedly, is formed not through extensive narrowboat experience but rather through 40 years of small boat handling and instruction. 

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16 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Buy tying to a cleat on the side of the gunwale at the middle of the boat rather than using a centre line attached to the roof will cause less roll on the boat when there is passing traffic.

I was referring to a cleat on the bow cant rather than on the gunwale midway along the boat.  Because the cleat is not on the low centre line of the hull, the leverage from a rope on the side of the boat will be greater causing a greater roll moment.

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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Tying to a Tee stud or cleat on the side of the bow rather than a central Tee stud will cause more roll on the boat when there is passing traffic.

We don't find that. At the bows, the rope is attached to the T stud and after going round or through something on the bank ( bollard,  ring, nappy pin, morning pin ) it is tied off on the extra cleat in front of the cratch. Similarly at the stern the rope forms a triangle and boats can go.past as fast as they like but Kelpie never moves in any direction . 

The extra cleats are painted the same colour as that part of the boat and are unobtrusive  but they are very effective. 

 

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18 minutes ago, TomIre said:

......

My opinion, admittedly, is formed not through extensive narrowboat experience but rather through 40 years of small boat handling and instruction. 

So your opinion on how best to moor a narrowboat is based on your experience of a different type of boat, not sure if by small boat you mean dinghies or boats with a cabin, but either way they are different to narrowboats.

Also narrowboats are generally used on canals (often narrow canals) which are different to the rivers, lakes, estuaries and sea where small boats are normally used.

 

My boating experience is varied so I often use techniques learnt on one type of boat on other types of boat,  sometimes this helps, but often I am just using a technique out of habit and because it feels more familiar and comfortable to me, not because it is the best available way of doing things.

 

I've no doubt your suggestions would be the best method for you, but that doesn't make them the best for everybody.

Also the idea of 2 centre cleats on the roof seems similar to having fairleads on either side of the roof for the centre line which is not uncommon, it really comes down to personal preference, not everyone needs to do everything the same way, what works well for one person may not work for someone else.

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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

It's fine for tieing off back to the boat. But it isn't appropriate for the end of the rope which is permanently attached to the boat. For that an eye splice cow-hitched over tee stud, bollard or cleat is secure yet easy to remove when necessary.

Aha, yes, I'd misunderstood you.  I agree with all this.

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In respect of quarter cleats/studs being accessible from the bank do the RYA not teach that working a fitting on the boat while standing on the bank is poor practice?

 

In my experience the centre line is rarely tied back onto the boat as it only used temporarily and goes around a ring or bollard on the bank.

 

On canals springs are not necessary if the bow and stern line are tied correctly. Those are generally tied back onto a T stud or dolly.

 

I think some of @TomIre’s ideas may reflect experience on moving water but are potentially over thinking things for still water. A lot may depend on where he intends to boat with the craft in question.

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Foredeck drain cutouts are quite handy for mooring with. Just lead a line through and tie to something that won't get drawn through the hole. Usually dead Canada geese are good for this and help with shock absorbing but other than that a bit of two by four or the head or a recently decapitated cyclist cable tied to his front wheel can work. 

 

Nice to have a low down attachment point close to the piling height. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

So your opinion on how best to moor a narrowboat is based on your experience of a different type of boat, not sure if by small boat you mean dinghies or boats with a cabin, but either way they are different to narrowboats.

Also narrowboats are generally used on canals (often narrow canals) which are different to the rivers, lakes, estuaries and sea where small boats are normally used.

 

My boating experience is varied so I often use techniques learnt on one type of boat on other types of boat,  sometimes this helps, but often I am just using a technique out of habit and because it feels more familiar and comfortable to me, not because it is the best available way of doing things.

 

I've no doubt your suggestions would be the best method for you, but that doesn't make them the best for everybody.

Also the idea of 2 centre cleats on the roof seems similar to having fairleads on either side of the roof for the centre line which is not uncommon, it really comes down to personal preference, not everyone needs to do everything the same way, what works well for one person may not work for someone else.

Not just a different type of boat, a different type of waterway too.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Not just a different type of boat, a different type of waterway too.

 

Quite.  It does seem that people from a yachting/sailing/sea background are quite quick to try to impart their "knowledge" of how things should be done.  I wonder how it would go down if we did the same on a yachting forum?

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4 hours ago, Loddon said:

Yes it does mean that C has to get out of her chair to move the rope 😎

 

 

You could always buy an additional line (rope is the material from which lines are made) so you have one on both cleats. C would be grateful and you'd be proof that narrow boaters can think out of the box! 

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45 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

So your opinion on how best to moor a narrowboat is based on your experience of a different type of boat, not sure if by small boat you mean dinghies or boats with a cabin, but either way they are different to narrowboats.

Also narrowboats are generally used on canals (often narrow canals) which are different to the rivers, lakes, estuaries and sea where small boats are normally used.

 

My boating experience is varied so I often use techniques learnt on one type of boat on other types of boat,  sometimes this helps, but often I am just using a technique out of habit and because it feels more familiar and comfortable to me, not because it is the best available way of doing things.

 

I've no doubt your suggestions would be the best method for you, but that doesn't make them the best for everybody.

Also the idea of 2 centre cleats on the roof seems similar to having fairleads on either side of the roof for the centre line which is not uncommon, it really comes down to personal preference, not everyone needs to do everything the same way, what works well for one person may not work for someone else.

Good points particularly about the familiarity and comfort. On reflection, I do try to do things on a boat in a very repeatable, consistent manner. That may be carrying over here. 

 

I had first thought of fairleads either side if the centre post but then figured cleats where the fairleads go is just simpler. 

 

My small boat experience is mainly in coastal cruising in power and sail boats under 100 feet. I've taught many courses on coastal navigation (set, drift  current, dead reckoning), celestial navigation and boat handling. 

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Cleats on the roof for use as spring points? I am sure they would make the boat roll just as much as a centre mounted centre line, with or without fairleads.

 

I had chunky fairleads on JennyB for the bow line from the centre stud. The line only fouled the paintwork when on very low piling with the bow pulled in for painting etc.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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The lines and how they are worked/attached for when you are moored are different to when you pass up/down through locks - several times a day if you are cruising extensively. UK canal boats are loosely based on the working craft that preceding them as you obviously appreciate, but I suspect you may not have much locking experience, certainly not with this style of craft on UK canals. Use of a line attached to the roof for mooring will lead to a very uncomfortable time as the boat will roll as any boat passes.

 

Tam

 

a slight diversion, but I have recommended putting cleats on either side just aft of the fore tee stud for people wishing to cruise in France with a UK narrow or wide beam craft, but that is for a different reason and not relevant here.

Edited by Tam & Di
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48 minutes ago, IanM said:

 

Quite.  It does seem that people from a yachting/sailing/sea background are quite quick to try to impart their "knowledge" of how things should be done.  I wonder how it would go down if we did the same on a yachting forum?

There are some on here who may also have  significant experience of yachting/sailing/sea going in addition to  inland waterways. The principles of seamanship are common to all forms of boating. 

 

Howard

 

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2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Not just a different type of boat, a different type of waterway too.

 

This is a very important point and, I think, the crux of why narrowboats have the mooring arrangements they have.

I started boating on the sea going yachts. In this type of boating (and most types of boating actually), you un-moor, go out for the day then moor up at the end of the day. On canals, mooring and unmooring is something you might do 20 times a day or more of you're doing a big lock flight.

 

In other words, on canals mooring/un-mooring is a big part of the operation and techniques and boat design have evolved around this....you can more easily throw or loop a rope around a big T stud or dolly. The centre line is another example of this evolution.......you'd never have a centre line on a yacht. In most other forms of boating, mooring is a minor part of the daily operation. 

 

So rather than obsolete, I'd describe narrowboat mooring techniques as having evolved. 

Edited by booke23
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2 hours ago, TomIre said:

The two centre cleats will be affixed to the roof at the sides not the gunwales.  This would also reduce/prevent the lines from fouling anything steer on the roof. This would also make spring lines effective when used with less roof fouling. 

Anyone who uses a roof mounted  line to moor a boat in any way is an idiot.

They should only used for boat handling ;)

Bits on the gunwales however do work well for attaching  mooring springs.

I use two centre lines to one fixing in the centre of the roof, these are fed through fairleads which work well.

I have only a small experience of all types of small craft having started boating  in 1960. 😎

 

 

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2 hours ago, haggis said:

We don't find that. At the bows, the rope is attached to the T stud and after going round or through something on the bank ( bollard,  ring, nappy pin, morning pin ) it is tied off on the extra cleat in front of the cratch. Similarly at the stern the rope forms a triangle and boats can go.past as fast as they like but Kelpie never moves in any direction . 

The extra cleats are painted the same colour as that part of the boat and are unobtrusive  but they are very effective. 

 

I really like this idea of bow cleats and T stud.  Any chance you have a picture of the cleats so I can see where they are mounted?

 

7 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Anyone who uses a roof mounted  line to moor a boat in any way is an idiot.

They should only used for boat handling ;)

Bits on the gunwales however do work well for attaching  mooring springs.

I use two centre lines to one fixing in the centre of the roof, these are fed through fairleads which work well.

I have only a small experience of all types of small craft having started boating  in 1960. 😎

 

 

I guess I can't quite grasp the difference in having a centre post and two fairleads with just eliminating the centre post and replacing the fairleads with cleats.  Same angle of pull just less fittings and chances of anything fouling.

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Thread title has a blatant error in it. 

It does!  Oops.  Not sure how to fix it though.

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11 minutes ago, TomIre said:

 

I guess I can't quite grasp the difference in having a centre post and two fairleads with just eliminating the centre post and replacing the fairleads with cleats.  Same angle of pull just less fittings and chances of anything fouling.

 

For general handling, nothing. 

 

I have two centrelines, one each side,  attached to raised handrails.  The lines do need to be securely attached though as they often get used for "strapping" the boat to a halt.  

 

I'd not use any variant of a centreline for mooring though, except perhaps as a very slack "belt and braces" insurance line.

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12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's easier for the mods if you just report the original post, for "another reason."

 

I tend to associate  'reporting posts' with reporting something that could cause offence, upset or breaches the forum rules.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I tend to associate  'reporting posts' with reporting something that could cause offence, upset or breaches the forum rules.

 

 

 

That's why there's three different categories of report.

 

Calling someone a spammer for a title typo seems a bit harsh, as does claiming they've breached forum rules.

 

The "for another reason" seems the best option ...

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

That's why there's three different categories of report.

 

Calling someone a spammer for a title typo seems a bit harsh, as does claiming they've breached forum rules.

 

The "for another reason" seems the best option ...

 

I rarely use it so Im not particularly familiar with the options.

 

Im sure tagging them will get their attention.

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  • Athy changed the title to Obsolete mooring set-up

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