Installation of new electric boat charging bollards

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

Quiet build in marine generators are not cheap 

 

https://www.manelservice.com/en/generator-sets-for-sale/marine-generators/cummins-onan-mdkdl-quiet-diesel-marine-generator-set-7-kw-avr

Cheaper are available, in reality a 48 volt dc genny would be better, as it can charge batteries and run a 48 volt inverter and electric motor direct in necessary 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, cuthound said:

You have ignored the cost of running cables in rural locations. This is mega expensive. I'm sure @Alan de Enfield had a fairly recent cost for providing power to his rural house.

 

 

8 hours ago, IanD said:

I haven't ignored the cost of running cables in rural locations, but the situation is not the same as Alan's house where they had to route a supply to exactly his house location when there was no supply nearby.

 

It was 2005 costs have increased tremendously since.

Overhead line (Non a HV Pylon) ~600 yards away across the fields, Cost to provide cable, install a transformer, pull the cable and connect the transformer was £20,000.

IF - I dug the trench, laid the ducting, backfilled the trench and had my electrician connect the cable at the house end.

[PD1964]

55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

It was 2005 costs have increased tremendously since.

Overhead line (Non a HV Pylon) ~600 yards away across the fields, Cost to provide cable, install a transformer, pull the cable and connect the transformer was £20,000.

IF - I dug the trench, laid the ducting, backfilled the trench and had my electrician connect the cable at the house end.

As you say, costs have increased tremendously from 17 years ago. So you can’t compare anything with today’s costing, never mind in 10-25 years time, when all these bollards might be of use.

Just done a quick search for comparison with copper prices per Tonne, sorry it’s in $

2005 $1700

2022 $9800

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by PD1964

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

It was 2005 costs have increased tremendously since.

Overhead line (Non a HV Pylon) ~600 yards away across the fields, Cost to provide cable, install a transformer, pull the cable and connect the transformer was £20,000.

IF - I dug the trench, laid the ducting, backfilled the trench and had my electrician connect the cable at the house end.

 

Thanks Alan, 600 yards really isn't that far to run a supply cable. Not the "miles" that someone suggested.

 

Proves my point that connecting to the grid isn't necessarily cheap even though you did the labour intensive bits, not the DNO.

 

 

[Slow and Steady]

Those who like to choose where they moor in order to get away from it all and/or other people are not going to get on well with a regime of batteries and limited charging point locations? Will it be the end of towpath mooring?

[IanD]

15 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

To make my getaway with the 200g of copper.

 

You're just being difficult.

And you missed fuel system. But why not put it under the stern? It could even be used to drive the boat which would reduce the need for battery charging stations.

 

Oh! I see someone else had the same idea:

 

 

I'm not being difficult, it's just that having been through this process during my boat design I know exactly what the actual cost and space issues are of such an installation, even in a planned-from-scratch new build.

 

It is under the stern (along with all the other "engineering bits", including fuel) but it still takes some extra space (total length to cabin is 9') and costs plenty of money -- at a rough guesstimate based on component costs, getting on for £15000 installed today. And before anyone comes in and says "but I've seen much cheaper generators", don't forget the cost of all the non-optional extras (e.g. dry exhaust, keel cooling) -- and the fact that the generator suppliers have all put their prices up a lot recently (e.g. 13% last month) but this hasn't made it through to many price lists yet... 😞

 

It does indeed produce more than enough power to drive the boat, otherwise such a boat would be completely impractical nowadays without charging stations -- unless you rely on solar and don't travel much in the summer, and not at all (or plug in to a marina) in winter.

 

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Cheaper are available, in reality a 48 volt dc genny would be better, as it can charge batteries and run a 48 volt inverter and electric motor direct in necessary 

 

In reality this isn't as good a choice as it at first appears...

 

Good-quality cocooned 48V generators are only available from a few suppliers (e.g. Fischer-Panda) and are several grand more than a similar power AC generator from the same supplier, because the AC one generates directly but the DC one is internally AC and has to go through a power converter similar to a charger with high-current output. Add on the fact that suppliers of such generators are at the expensive end of the market anyway, and "DC" generators are more complex and made in much smaller volumes, and you end up with roughly a £5000 premium compared to a more widely available AC generator -- and yes I looked at this in detail... 😉

 

You end up with the same efficiency when being used to charge batteries (AC-DC inside "DC generator" instead of combi like a Victro Quattro), but lower efficiency (more heat to get rid of) if the generator is also being used to power AC loads since the power goes through 2 conversion stages (AC==>DC==>AC) instead of one. Also the total AC power available is limited to that provided by the Quattro, not the sum of this plus the AC generator power. And in a boat which is heavily dependent on AC power to be liveable on, with a DC generator if the combi fails you have no mains, with an AC generator you can switch this directly through in an emergency -- and solar will still charge the batteries so you have some propulsion too.

 

All of which is why most series hybrid installations use AC generators...

 

You can go through a similar analysis comparing parallel and series hybrids; many of the apparent advantages of the Hybrid Marine parallel system disappear when you look into the actual costs (all expensive hand-made low-volume gear, with LA batteries), efficiency on a canal boat is lower, belt drives whine gently and the engine is noisier than a generator, no AC backup -- hence my decision to go series hybrid. For a seagoing vessel needing much higher continuous power a parallel hybrid (or the Integrel super-alternator system) might be the best choice, but not a narrowboat where 15kW/20hp is plenty.

 

As usual the facts change when you really dig into them in detail as opposed to just looking at publicity material (or reviews...), and you really *do* need to go a long way down the generator/hybrid rabbit-hole to work all this out, and this takes a lot of time and effort and detailed discussions with suppliers -- not just a quick "I think this is better" post 😉

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

It was 2005 costs have increased tremendously since.

Overhead line (Non a HV Pylon) ~600 yards away across the fields, Cost to provide cable, install a transformer, pull the cable and connect the transformer was £20,000.

IF - I dug the trench, laid the ducting, backfilled the trench and had my electrician connect the cable at the house end.

 

All true, if the nearest supply to the canal is this far away.

 

I still say that this is unlikely to be the case for the vast majority of canal charging stations; popular mooring areas tend to be near/in towns/villages anyway, and if the question to the DNO was "where's the nearest available 15kW power feed to this 5-10 mile stretch of canal" the answer will almost always be "right next to it, so long as you put it here next to this [house/shop/pub/road/powerline].

15 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Without looking into the actual tech stuff, yes it will charge the batteries and also propel the boat, far cheaper then having an electric motor/control system and generator.
 Is a Hybrid the way to go in the costing battle rather then having a separate expensive electric propulsion unit and expensive generator to charge the batteries? 

No. You need to look into the "actual tech stuff" and real costs. See my earlier post 😉

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Those who like to choose where they moor in order to get away from it all and/or other people are not going to get on well with a regime of batteries and limited charging point locations? Will it be the end of towpath mooring?

Solar 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I'm not being difficult, it's just that having been through this process during my boat design I know exactly what the actual cost and space issues are of such an installation, even in a planned-from-scratch new build.

 

It is under the stern (along with all the other "engineering bits", including fuel) but it still takes some extra space (total length to cabin is 9') and costs plenty of money -- at a rough guesstimate based on component costs, getting on for £15000 installed today. And before anyone comes in and says "but I've seen much cheaper generators", don't forget the cost of all the non-optional extras (e.g. dry exhaust, keel cooling) -- and the fact that the generator suppliers have all put their prices up a lot recently (e.g. 13% last month) but this hasn't made it through to many price lists yet... 😞

 

It does indeed produce more than enough power to drive the boat, otherwise such a boat would be completely impractical nowadays without charging stations -- unless you rely on solar and don't travel much in the summer, and not at all (or plug in to a marina) in winter.

 

 

In reality this isn't as good a choice as it at first appears...

 

Good-quality cocooned 48V generators are only available from a few suppliers (e.g. Fischer-Panda) and are several grand more than a similar power AC generator from the same supplier, because the AC one generates directly but the DC one is internally AC and has to go through a power converter similar to a charger with high-current output. Add on the fact that suppliers of such generators are at the expensive end of the market anyway, and "DC" generators are more complex and made in much smaller volumes, and you end up with roughly a £5000 premium compared to a more widely available AC generator -- and yes I looked at this in detail... 😉

 

You end up with the same efficiency when being used to charge batteries (AC-DC inside "DC generator" instead of combi like a Victro Quattro), but lower efficiency (more heat to get rid of) if the generator is also being used to power AC loads since the power goes through 2 conversion stages (AC==>DC==>AC) instead of one. Also the total AC power available is limited to that provided by the Quattro, not the sum of this plus the AC generator power. And in a boat which is heavily dependent on AC power to be liveable on, with a DC generator if the combi fails you have no mains, with an AC generator you can switch this directly through in an emergency -- and solar will still charge the batteries so you have some propulsion too.

 

All of which is why most series hybrid installations use AC generators...

 

You can go through a similar analysis comparing parallel and series hybrids; many of the apparent advantages of the Hybrid Marine parallel system disappear when you look into the actual costs (all expensive hand-made low-volume gear, with LA batteries), efficiency on a canal boat is lower, belt drives whine gently and the engine is noisier than a generator, no AC backup -- hence my decision to go series hybrid. For a seagoing vessel needing much higher continuous power a parallel hybrid (or the Integrel super-alternator system) might be the best choice, but not a narrowboat where 15kW/20hp is plenty.

 

As usual the facts change when you really dig into them in detail as opposed to just looking at publicity material (or reviews...), and you really *do* need to go a long way down the generator/hybrid rabbit-hole to work all this out, and this takes a lot of time and effort and detailed discussions with suppliers -- not just a quick "I think this is better" post 😉

Ricky was on about making a 48 volt DC genny at one point Ian which is why I suggested it, he was going to use a motor in reverse if I remember rightly?

[PD1964]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

No. You need to look into the "actual tech stuff" and real costs. See my earlier post 😉

No I don’t, as not interested in electric boats as quite happy with Diesel engined boats and I’m sure the guy that fitted the Hybrid did his research, as your not the only one that looks into it for the best solution in relation to expense.
 He was happy with his system as it suited his needs. Your boat fits your needs at about 3x the price then his cost, even though your both using the same shell builder. You mention real costs and seam to forget your builder has a staff he needs to pay, so the cost of the boat reflects this.

[Mike Todd]

22 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Why do you think charging points are as prone to failure as pumpouts? Why is charging for the power complex?

 

Experience of car charging stations suggests the opposite, that availability is pretty good for ones with properly designed billing systems (which is usually where the problem is) like Tesla, and that payment/cost recovery is actually pretty simple.

 

Electrons are a lot easier and cleaner to move around than liquefied sh*t... 😉

Most current EV charging stations are installed in association with other facilities. Supply to the site is already there. The only overnight options for most people are at home - again the supply is already there and the metering adequately secure. The bills are sent to a long term registered customer.

 

It has been suggested that most boaters would want to charge overnight. Charging stations would need, for economy, to be grouped together and I am not sure what the minimum might realistically be. Whatever. it would eliminate my preference to moor as far away from everyone else as possible! 

 

I may be wrong, but it is my impression that the limited experiences of providing card based bollards, that charge to a registered customer rather than having to buy pre-pay cards, has not been good. The mechanisms are not (yet) designed to be robust enough to be used daily by different people and, like pump outs, have a high level of breakdowns.

 

For the network to cope with the current numbers of boats, then it is necessary to avoid adding 'bunching' causes. Another thread has commented on the aggro levels at places such as one way tunnels, aqueducts and lock flights. 

 

I suspect the advocates of such bollards imaging that they would frequently be available, meaning located in the middle of nowhere. Even with rubbish disposal, CaRT are finding it increasingly difficult to find contractors prepared to go more than a couple of meters of a proper road. Maintenance of bollards (let alone the installation costs) at reasonably distributed locations, could well be prohibitively expensive. Whilst you can cope with Stoppage Notices that require you to carry your rubbish on to the next facility, that is unlikely to be an option with daily charging. Of course, all this would change if the technology were introduced that enabled much longer charging intervals but I suspect that is some way off even if it does not flout basic physics/chemistry.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Ricky was on about making a 48 volt DC genny at one point Ian which is why I suggested it, he was going to use a motor in reverse if I remember rightly?

 

He was, because a standard PMAC motor and controller can also do regeneration -- but the pair of these also costs quite a lot, and then you have to add the diesel to drive it, and the cooling, and the control, and the enclosure, and everything else. My guess is that a "DIY 48V generator" like this would end up rather cheaper than buying one (e.g. from Fischer-Panda), but you'd have to sell a lot of them to pay back all the engineering time/effort needed to design and develop it -- which may be OK if you've got nothing else to do with your time, but I think you know how busy Ricky is at the moment...

 

It still doesn't get round the fact that an AC generator gives you power assist and two sources of AC power, which in a boat like this is high on the priority list.

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Most current EV charging stations are installed in association with other facilities. Supply to the site is already there. The only overnight options for most people are at home - again the supply is already there and the metering adequately secure. The bills are sent to a long term registered customer.

 

It has been suggested that most boaters would want to charge overnight. Charging stations would need, for economy, to be grouped together and I am not sure what the minimum might realistically be. Whatever. it would eliminate my preference to moor as far away from everyone else as possible! 

 

I may be wrong, but it is my impression that the limited experiences of providing card based bollards, that charge to a registered customer rather than having to buy pre-pay cards, has not been good. The mechanisms are not (yet) designed to be robust enough to be used daily by different people and, like pump outs, have a high level of breakdowns.

 

For the network to cope with the current numbers of boats, then it is necessary to avoid adding 'bunching' causes. Another thread has commented on the aggro levels at places such as one way tunnels, aqueducts and lock flights. 

 

I suspect the advocates of such bollards imaging that they would frequently be available, meaning located in the middle of nowhere. Even with rubbish disposal, CaRT are finding it increasingly difficult to find contractors prepared to go more than a couple of meters of a proper road. Maintenance of bollards (let alone the installation costs) at reasonably distributed locations, could well be prohibitively expensive. Whilst you can cope with Stoppage Notices that require you to carry your rubbish on to the next facility, that is unlikely to be an option with daily charging. Of course, all this would change if the technology were introduced that enabled much longer charging intervals but I suspect that is some way off even if it does not flout basic physics/chemistry.

 

EV charging stations are a completely different kettle of fish because they need direct grid connections rated at hundreds of kW to a megawatt or more.

 

Card based bollards -- meaning, where you insert the card -- are a terrible idea, card readers like this are prone to failure/vandalism. Contactless (with comms links) is the obvious way to go, and there's very little to go wrong with these and nothing to maintain except the connector (if it gets damaged).

 

If you want to carry on mooring in the middle of nowhere away from other boats *and* charging points, don't get an electric boat. Same argument as EVs, if you don't want one or they're too expensive or don't do what you want, stick with diesel. And it'll be a lot longer before diesel boats disappear from the canals than diesel cars disappear from the roads... 😉

 

As for EVs, electric boats aren't the best solution for everybody and they do have disadvantages, especially with no onboard generator (in which case they're not electric, they're series hybrid) -- but they will be the best solution for a lot of boaters once charging stations are widespread and there are enough of them to cope with the number of boats. Just like EVs on the roads...

 

Until then they're an expensive luxury for the small number of people -- like me -- who are willing to pay (a lot!) for silent cruising 🙂

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

@IanD can I ask if you will be living on the boat full time?

  As you say an expensive luxury for a small number of people, I imagine the cost is well in excess of £200k, but that’s how things are going.
 I would say not an expensive luxury if in your 20’s or 30’s and can get 20 plus years of enjoyment from it.
  It could however be a big waste of money if your 65 or older. As there’s always the risk that things could change quickly, due to age related health or injuries and your restricted to how much you can use it. Then you could always pass it to family in their 20’s or 30’s and the enjoyment starts afresh.

  So depending on the way you look at it, it could be an expensive luxury for you or long term enjoyment for future family generations.

 I hope the latter and your boat is enjoyed and appreciated as it should. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by PD1964

[mrsmelly]

On 03/05/2022 at 15:02, PD1964 said:

The main damage to bollards is usually caused by boaters pulling away and forgetting to unplug their electric cable. I imagine in future this would more likely to be hire boaters then more regular boat users.

This is easily overcome. One of my boats when plugged in to a shoreline had some isolater built in and it was not possible to start the engine until shore power was removed. This would be an easy fix on lectric boats.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This is easily overcome. One of my boats when plugged in to a shoreline had some isolater built in and it was not possible to start the engine until shore power was removed. This would be an easy fix on lectric boats.

 

They can also do it for EV's so I cant see it being an issue for electric boats.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

@IanD can I ask if you will be living on the boat full time?

  As you say an expensive luxury for a small number of people, I imagine the cost is well in excess of £200k, but that’s how things are going.
 I would say not an expensive luxury if in your 20’s or 30’s and can get 20 plus years of enjoyment from it.
  It could however be a big waste of money if your 65 or older. As there’s always the risk that things could change quickly, due to age related health or injuries and your restricted to how much you can use it. Then you could always pass it to family in their 20’s or 30’s and the enjoyment starts afresh.

  So depending on the way you look at it, it could be an expensive luxury for you or long term enjoyment for future family generations.

 I hope the latter and your boat is enjoyed and appreciated as it should. 

I won't be living on the boat full time and have no plans to do so, but I will be decreasing working time and increasing vacation time over the next few years, moving to more of a consultancy role than a hard retirement, so I aim to have multiple extended holidays on it per year, and my children (in their late 20s) will also be using it for holidays -- possibly for longer than I will, though I hope to get many years of use out of it before joining the choir invisible... 😉

 

A high-end series hybrid gas-free all-the-comforts-of-home boat like this (mine's from Finesse) is an expensive luxury in the sense that it costs significantly more than a less well-equipped diesel boat, but my view is that I'm only going to buy one boat, and spending an extra £xx000 to get what I want is worth it to me.

 

I certainly aim to get many years of enjoyment out of it, always assuming CART and the Tories between them don't destroy the UK canal system... 😞

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

@IanD can I ask if you will be living on the boat full time?

  As you say an expensive luxury for a small number of people, I imagine the cost is well in excess of £200k, but that’s how things are going.
 I would say not an expensive luxury if in your 20’s or 30’s and can get 20 plus years of enjoyment from it.
  It could however be a big waste of money if your 65 or older. As there’s always the risk that things could change quickly, due to age related health or injuries and your restricted to how much you can use it. Then you could always pass it to family in their 20’s or 30’s and the enjoyment starts afresh.

  So depending on the way you look at it, it could be an expensive luxury for you or long term enjoyment for future family generations.

 I hope the latter and your boat is enjoyed and appreciated as it should. 

 

My biggest concern would be depreciation.

 

Lots of people have put very expensive unusual boats on the UK canals and then find if they have to sell they lose thousands upon thousands.

 

Whitfield any one?

[George and Dragon]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

I'm not being difficult

Sorry, I missed out the smiley.

[George and Dragon]

9 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Those who like to choose where they moor in order to get away from it all and/or other people are not going to get on well with a regime of batteries and limited charging point locations? Will it be the end of towpath mooring?

If I had any input into the planning of this scheme I'd suggest putting a few fast charging points in amongst the slow ones or perhaps at water points. That could enable boats with suitable charging systems and batteries to grab a quick boost perhaps while filling with water and then moor up in the middle of nowhere if they choose.

Hire boats are going to need to be able to handle pretty fast charging if they come in empty in the morning and go out full the same afternoon.

[Slow and Steady]

I'm still struggling with expecting this from CRT who won't even maintain lock paddles TBH. I guess providing elec bollards will be another excuse to cut other maintenance

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

My biggest concern would be depreciation.

 

Lots of people have put very expensive unusual boats on the UK canals and then find if they have to sell they lose thousands upon thousands.

 

Whitfield any one?

That is only true if you sell it. My boat is gas free, hydraulic drive, it suits me and I have had 20 years use out of it next month. If I get another 5 that will be great, at that point I don't really care how much it sells for.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by ditchcrawler

[Guest]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

That is only true if you sell it.

 

 

Sometimes something goes without saying because its so bleedin obvious.

 

That's a good example.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

My boat is gas free, hydraulic drive, it suits me and I have had 20 years use out of it next month. If I get another 5 that will be great, at that point I don't really care how much it sells for.

 

 

You did that trick of adding a bit.

 

A lot depends on when you have to sell it and why.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, George and Dragon said:

If I had any input into the planning of this scheme I'd suggest putting a few fast charging points in amongst the slow ones or perhaps at water points. That could enable boats with suitable charging systems and batteries to grab a quick boost perhaps while filling with water and then moor up in the middle of nowhere if they choose.

Hire boats are going to need to be able to handle pretty fast charging if they come in empty in the morning and go out full the same afternoon.

Could be a good idea so long as power feed is available. Don't forget that the hardware to do super-fast charging like EVs costs more money on both boat and shore (grid connection, high current hardware, battery cooling...).

 

The EV fast chargers also work with 400V or 800V DC systems, which have far more stringent H&S regulations than the 48V commonly used on boats (for exactly this reason).

 

A standard 32A/7kW charging point (and hardware on the boat) will charge a 35kWh lithium battery pack in about 5 hours, which is typical hire boat TAT.

Edited May 4, 2022 by IanD