Installation of new electric boat charging bollards

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

If CART/gov.uk don't want to cough up the money, it could be quite easy to get it privately funded --

 

Why would anyone bother? Easy for the government to just ban diesels in inland boats and leave us to sort out how to continue boating, or just stop. 

 

Its our problem and I doubt the government sees any need to lift a finger to help, nor private enterprise. If the hire boat industry wants to continue, I suspect the government's attitude is they can install (and pay for) their own charging points.

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

In reality they're focussed on getting people to events such as the 'launch' of the new e-shuttle between Marsden railway station and the Visitor Centre. Plenty of people there, no room for any on boats unless they'd moored by the station.
I don't believe CRT know how to get more people interested in boating - maybe they hope there will be some kind of osmosis from these events onto the water.

Do they want more people interested in boating  or do they want them interested in the waterways

23 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

In reality they're focussed on getting people to events such as the 'launch' of the new e-shuttle between Marsden railway station and the Visitor Centre. Plenty of people there, no room for any on boats unless they'd moored by the station.
I don't believe CRT know how to get more people interested in boating - maybe they hope there will be some kind of osmosis from these events onto the water.

Do they want more people interested in boating  or do they want them interested in the waterways

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If the government put "rolling out charge stations across the network" as one of CARTs KPIs which they have to meet to get their government grant money, you can bet this would focus their minds PDQ... 😉

 

If CART/gov.uk don't want to cough up the money, it could be quite easy to get it privately funded -- make it a condition of a company being allowed to roll out lucrative EV charging networks on the roads that they contribute (for example) 1% of this spend to a canal charging network fund. Again this needs CART/gov interest/focus to make it happen though, and there's no sign of either... 😞

Just take a look at   How to charge your electric boat (broads-authority.gov.uk)

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do they want more people interested in boating  or do they want them interested in the waterways

Do they want more people interested in boating  or do they want them interested in the waterways

 

 

My thoughts too. The last thing they want is more boats wearing out the system. Just more towpath users. 

[George and Dragon]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do they want more people interested in boating  or do they want them interested in the waterways

 

I have no idea. Do they?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

I have no idea. Do they?

 

 

Why would they, given the fees paid by boats fall well short of the costs of maintaining the system? 

 

 

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Whilst i agree with much of what you say above, you cannot simply pick up a connection where a cable (usually HV) crosses a canal. If no power was available locally, then it would have to come from the nearest substation, which itself may need upgrading.

 

Theft of BEV charging cables is already happening.  Give  most BEV chsrging stations are in populated areas and canal ones would be in rural areas and the cables longer, I expect thieves would target boats over cars.

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10530305/Now-thieves-new-target-electric-cars-charger-cable.html

 

Rolling out charging points sparsely across the whole network is a recipe for them falling into disuse. It makes more sense to put them on a popular route or a local area forst a d develop from that. People will be encouraged to buy electric boats if they see others using them.

 

Using the recent real life cost of installing a power cable from @Alan de Enfield should enable a rough cost per distance unit to be established, but as I said it is not insubstantial. 10 years ago I was paying the DNO's large sums to run cables to substations (which the company I was working for built and provided all equipment for except the supply cable) within new sites.

 

 

The cables I was thinking of were the rural 3-wire-on-pole ones (usually 11kV?), not the high-voltage national grid.

 

However I struggle to think of many stretches of canal where there are absolutely no houses/shops/pubs/factories/power lines next to the canal for many miles, and this is where most of the charging points would be placed on rural areas. Also you don't need a substation to tap into an 11kV line, only a pole-mounted transformer as used here and in many other countries -- a substation is only needed for big loads, which a 7kW charging point (or even a couple) is not.

 

It thieves want to nick copper, there are many places with far more of it than a short low-current connection to a canal charging station -- for example, any high-power EV charging station will have many times more copper connecting it up.

 

I'm not arguing with your cost vs. distance, just your suggestion that long connections would be needed in many places, if at all. As I said (but you ignored...) Alan's case is different because the power had to get to his house from the nearest access point to the grid which was some way away. This is not the same as the canal case of "I need to connect somewhere on this 10-mile stretch of canal to the grid, where's the nearest point?".

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by IanD

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Why would they, given the fees paid by boats fall well short of the costs of maintaining the system? 

 

 

For the entire time I was living aboard, I could never work out why the boat licence was so ridiculously cheap? Look at it today. Say you have a full length narrowboat, the cost is about the same per day as one cup of Mocha or similar in such as a Starbucks, millions of people think nothing of buying a coffee out daily, for a couple on a boat the 2 coffees would cost double the boat licence. This includes full useage of the canal, all water points, rubbish disposal and elsan points. A shorter boat which still uses just as many facilities costs a lot less!! 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Why would they, given the fees paid by boats fall well short of the costs of maintaining the system? 

 

 

Your point of view seems to be that we should all just give up and throw our hands in the air and give up on the canals which CART are hell-bent on destroying.

 

Do you have the same cheerful and positive attitude to life in general, or just CART and canals in particular?

Edited May 3, 2022 by IanD

[Chris Lowe]

On 01/05/2022 at 22:33, PD1964 said:

 I bet you’ve met loads of Narrowboat captains wearing an Australian bush hat, neckerchief and waistcoat though, the uniform of choice for the Rosie & Jim club. 

I have met a narrowboat owner in full uniform with the peaked cap and gold braid

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

I have met a narrowboat owner in full uniform with the peaked cap and gold braid

 

I saw one on (presumably) a stag boat wearing nothing but a smile and possibly woad...

[Chris Lowe]

On 02/05/2022 at 13:51, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

This was on the boat when we bought it - apparently he was fully within his rights (and qualified) to wear it, the plaque alongside was presented to him from his last command.

 

We made sure that both items were removed when we took ownership.

 

 

 

 

My mate like to hire a narrowboat every now and then and he qualifies to wear a cap like that as well, as an ex officer of the watch on HMS Ark Royal he found it quite amusing when the boat yard asked if he had any experience steering boats.

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I saw one on (presumably) a stag boat wearing nothing but a smile and possibly woad...

 

 

C'mon, own up, that was you really wasn't it?!!

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, MtB said:

 

 

C'mon, own up, that was you really wasn't it?!!

 

 

Certainly not -- woad's just not my colour... 😉

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Your point of view seems to be that we should all just give up and throw our hands in the air and give up on the canals which CART are hell-bent on destroying.

 

Do you have the same cheerful and positive attitude to life in general, or just CART and canals in particular?

 

 

My point of view is the same as mrsmelly's. If boaters paid CRT a fee commensurate with the cost of maintaining the system, we would be justified in moaning about their dismal performance.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

The cables I was thinking of were the rural 3-wire-on-pole ones, not the national grid.

 

However I struggle to think of many stretches of canal where there are absolutely no houses/shops/pubs/factories/power lines next to the canal for many miles, and this is where most of the charging points would be placed on rural areas. You don't need a substation to tap into a lowish-voltage line, only a pole-mounted transformer as used here and in many other countries -- a substation is only needed for big loads, which a 7kW charging point (or even a couple) is not.

 

It thieves want to nick copper, there are many places with far more of it than a short low-current connection to a canal charging station -- for example, any high-power EV charging station will have many times more copper connecting it up.

 

I'm not arguing with your cost vs. distance, just your suggestion that long connections would be needed in many places, if at all. As I said (but you ignored...) Alan's case is different because the power had to get to his house from the nearest access point to the grid which was some way away. This is not the same as the canal case of "I need to connect somewhere on this 10-mile stretch of canal to the grid, where's the nearest point?".

 

 

The transformer on a wooden pole usually transform 11kV down to 400V and typically have a rating of 16kVA to 50kVA. Larger ones are usually mounted on concrete poles. They are not usually rated much above their design load (why would they be as it costs the DNO and if an increase is required to accommodate future load it can be charged to the new user?).

 

I can think of many rural stretches of canal where you need to walk at least half a mile to the nearest pub or village, and some where you need to walk twice that.

 

In DNO terms a substation is usually defined as an enclosed space containing  transformer(s) and associated switchgear to bring the voltage down to not less than 400 V.

 

A boat charging location for say 5 boats will introduce a potential load of 20kVA at 4kVA per charger, and would probably include a 16A landline connection too. Small loads can soon add up.

Thieves will steal from wherever convenient. Locally we have had 25kV overhead cable stolen from the WCML!

 

Why is Alan's case different. I don't think his supply cable was "miles" long?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by cuthound
Spillung

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The transformer on a wooden pole usually transform.11kV down to 400V and tropically have a rating of 16kVA to 50kVA. Larger ones are usually mounted on concrete poles. They are not usually rated much above their design load (why would they be as it costs the DNO and if an increase is required to accommodate future load it can be charged to the new user?).

 

I can think of many rural stretches of canal where you need to walk at least half a mile to the nearest pub or village, and some where you need to walk twice that.

 

In DNO terms a substation is usually defined as an enclosed space containing  transformer(s) and associated switchgear to bring the voltage down to not less than 400 V.

 

A boat charging location for say 5 boats will introduce a potential load of 20kVA at 4kVA per charger, and would probably include a 16A landline connection too. Small loads can soon add up.

Thieves will steal from wherever convenient. Locally we have had 25kV overhead cable stolen from the WCML!

 

Why is Alan's case different. I don't think his supply cable was "miles" long?

 

 

So as I said the pole-mounted transformers are fine for rural charging stations, 16kVA (the smallest) will do 2 boats at 32A (or 4 at 16A) which is plenty.

 

Alan's case is different because his house is not (for example) 5 miles long so you can choose to connect to it anywhere along this length, wherever it's nearest to the grid -- don't you see the difference? They had to make a (trenched?) connection over (IIRC) half a mile or so, and he paid a fortune for this.

 

Yes there are rural stretches where there's very little nearby, but how long are they? Even on the most remote stretches I can think of, I doubt that there's *nothing* nearby for (say) 5 miles, there's almost always some habitation (presumably with a mains supply) or a crossing 11kV line at least this often. And even if there aren't then the number of places where a longer connection is needed is likely to be a tiny fraction of the total number of charging points needed, so the overall cost should be acceptable.

 

I'm not trying to be over-optimistic here, just looking at the realities of what is needed, and not using false comparisons to stoke up FUD -- for example, unlike caravans there aren't over a million canal boats to supply, unlike cars charging is not at >100kW per station, and unlike Alan's house you don't need to run a cable miles to one specific spot.

 

If you're so worried about copper theft then surely all EV charging networks are non-viable, as well as all grid connections to remote houses, electric rail lines and so on. Since this obviously is not the case, why are you so insistent that canals are somehow different? You seem to be clutching at any straw to try and show why canal charging stations can't work... 😉

 

(and there may well be good reasons for this (e.g. lack of CART/gov will), but not any that you've come up with as far as I can see...)

Edited May 3, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

I would have thought vandalism and theft would be more of a problem than misuse.

After all you can't inadvertently block a socket by putting things you haven't first eaten in it. 😅

The main damage to bollards is usually caused by boaters pulling away and forgetting to unplug their electric cable. I imagine in future this would more likely to be hire boaters then more regular boat users.

Edited May 3, 2022 by PD1964

[IanD]

1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

The main damage to with bollards is usually caused by boaters pulling away and forgetting to unplug their electric cable.

It's difficult to make anything *completely* idiot-proof... 😞

[Chris Lowe]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's difficult to make anything *completely* idiot-proof... 😞

But idiots can be very clever

[PD1964]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's difficult to make anything *completely* idiot-proof... 😞

If this idea ever comes to fruition, what would be best, normal Bollards with sockets where the boater plugs in his own cable or Bollards with an attached umbilical lead with fitted plug? 

Edited May 3, 2022 by PD1964

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's difficult to make anything *completely* idiot-proof... 😞

 

3 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

But idiots can be very clever

 

My email signature line used to be "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool" until a former client complained it was unprofessional.

 

I didn't renew that contract ...

[George and Dragon]

33 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Thieves will steal from wherever convenient.

Preferably with road access.

 

3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

If this idea ever comes to fruition, what would be best, normal Bollards with sockets where the boater plugs in his own cable or Bollards with an attached umbilical charging lead with fitted plug? 

The former. It would be trivial to ensure that the boater has the correct cable for a standard 16 or 32A connection. The idiocy of multiple connectors for different EVs could be avoided.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

But idiots can be very clever

I've got a t-shirt that says just that...

 

https://teespring.com/shop/eng777?pid=370&cid=6531

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Preferably with road access.

 

The former. It would be trivial to ensure that the boater has the correct cable for a standard 16 or 32A connection. The idiocy of multiple connectors for different EVs could be avoided.

 

And a boater who pulls away without unplugging and damages the bollard will find themselves -- or their insurer -- paying for the damage, since the system will have to know which boat was moored there (and who is paying) for the billing/payment system to work. I guess that hire firms will do the same as for pumpout toilet blockages and charge the boater (e.g. £100), which should do wonders for their memories...