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Installation of new electric boat charging bollards


Alan de Enfield

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26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Well that should en6asure that the price of secondhand diesel boats continues to rise, as most new bosters won't be able to afford a new electric boat.

 

 

But, with a high depreciation as the diesel powered boat will be all but worthless in 2050 when it must either be modified to a zero emission propulsion system, or, be taken off the water.

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29 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Well that should en6asure that the price of secondhand diesel boats continues to rise, as most new bosters won't be able to afford a new electric boat.

 

 

 

I agree with the first bit (this will ensure s/h boat prices rocket) but not the second. it won't be because new boaters can't afford an electric boat, they will just buy second hand. It will be because a proper electric boat (i.e. one not relying on diesel to charge the batteries) will have bugger all range compared to a s/h diesel boat as there will still be no charging points. 

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

I agree with the first bit (this will ensure s/h boat prices rocket) but not the second. it won't be because new boaters can't afford an electric boat, they will just buy second hand. It will be because a proper electric boat (i.e. one not relying on diesel to charge the batteries) will have bugger all range compared to a s/h diesel boat as there will still be no charging points. 

 

Yes, perhaps I should have said "most new boaters won't want or be able to afford a new electric boat".

 

I agree there isn't the will to put charging points in. CRT can't afford to do it, the hire companies struggle to make money as it is and there are not enough inland boaters to make it viable for the private sector to do it, so unless subsidies are brought it I can't see it happening.

 

I remember electric (lead acid battery hire) boats being discussed in the late 70's, there was talk of BW installing moorings with charging points every 8 hours cruising around the system. Nothing happened and it was easier to raise government money to pay for it back then.

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A lot can happen between now and 2050. A press report a couple of days ago mentioned that Brussels is being lobbied to amend the present EC  "100% zero Carbon emissions cars by 2035" to 90%. Reasons include the concern about universal adoption of things that rely on foreign technology and raw materials, especially the stuff being sourced and proposed to be sourced, from China. The problems that are arising from the heavy reliance on single sources such as Russian gas seems to have focussed minds dramatically. 

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19 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

So they dont run their 200Kva generator

Maybe they only have a 200Kva generator because there are no charging points. 

If enough charging points were able to be installed in an economically viable way then newer electric boats would have no need for a generator.

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22 hours ago, MartynG said:

So you wouldn't resent a  narrowboat doing the same thing?

 

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

Edited by Murflynn
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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

 

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

 

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

 

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

 

 

You obviously feel very strongly about this - enough to say it four times !

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You obviously feel very strongly about this - enough to say it four times !

kept getting a freeze on the screen and a message that t'internet ain't working.  I know it's the day of rest but I expect better service, even from from the gremlins.

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I think any government plan for 2050 can fairly safely be treated as irrelevant nonsense. If electric boats are seriously an answer,  which I doubt, then it would mean replacing steel boats with plastic to save weight and power drain. You'd all be on cruisers (not me, though, not in 2050)

But all that's assuming the waterways are still viable (some hardly are now). Could you run a dredger from a plastic or all electric boat? Could you get a lockgate to a location in one?

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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52 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think any government plan for 2050 can fairly safely be treated as irrelevant nonsense. If electric boats are seriously an answer,  which I doubt, then it would mean replacing steel boats with plastic to save weight and power drain. You'd all be on cruisers (not me, though, not in 2050)

But all that's assuming the waterways are still viable (some hardly are now). Could you run a dredger from a plastic or all electric boat? Could you get a lockgate to a location in one?

 

just out of interest what is the carbon footprint of the construction of a GRP hull, compared with a steel hull?

 

there was a discussion on Radio 4 the other day and the conclusion seemed to be that an electric car had an overall larger footprint than a petrol car for a driver who keeps a car for say 10 years and has a modest mileage of say 8000 miles a year.  And replacing an old petrol car that had mileage left in it given proper maintenance and repair was hugely less carbon intensive than replacing it with a new electric car.  For anyone who believes in the modern trend that ageing cars should be scrapped, the TV series Wheeler Dealers should put their minds at rest.  The most significant factor is the relatively recent adoption of a throw-away philosophy that is supported by anti-social ideas that growth, fashion and one-upmanship are more important than a conservative (note the small c) approach to living.

Edited by Murflynn
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5 hours ago, Number 9 said:

Maybe they only have a 200Kva generator because there are no charging points. 

If enough charging points were able to be installed in an economically viable way then newer electric boats would have no need for a generator.

 

I used to project manage the installation of critical power for a living to things like data centres, hospitals and telephone exchanges.

 

As a rough metric for estimating we used £1000 per kW ten years ago. Costs have risen considerably since.

 

The cost assumed anadequate, nearby supply of electricity to tap into, which won't be the case for many rural mooring locations.

 

Even at those prices a single 16 amp charging point would be about £4000 and how many would be needed?

 

Several would be needed at each mooring place and the mooring places would need to be about 10 lock miles apart (similar distance to sanitary stations/water points to cover the network.

Edited by cuthound
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22 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

These are more likely fuel consumption. I did an electric consumption, for the electric boat, based on 3kW for 8  hours a day over 7 days, but grossly over estimated diesel. With these, an electric hire fleet still probably comes out slightly ahead, or even compared with a diesel boat, assuming a five year hire life, several tens of kilopounds extra build cost and similar resale values, but doesn't leave anything much to contribute to the cost of the electric bollards needed to recharge them around the cruising route. That would still need to be funded by other means some how. So back to the same problem. If it is built, then they would use it, but it isn't going to be built under what is currently politically thinkable.

I suggest that for hire companies, a near-worst-case scenario would be the best basis for planning, especially in terms of the amount of electricity consumed. Boats that ran 'dry' especially at night would almost certainly be 'bothering' the hire company to rescue them. Either it would be necessary to develop some means of preventing consumption by the motor above a certain level or assume that it is run at least dawn to dusk midsummer.

 

There is also the issue of heating, for all-electric. This could be an even larger consumer, especially on chilly shoulder seasons. 

 

Boat owners could choose to adapt their demands whilst continuously monitoring their battery levels. Hirers are notably exempt from such considerations!

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There have been a lot of contributions on this topic but none seems to have tried to pull things together so I'll have a go.

  1. The most likely system going forward must surely be the straightforward Battery Electric Boat, the equivalent of electric cars.
  2. The game changer is likely to be the appearance of solid-state electrolyte batteries. These have been "a couple of years away" for several years now but when they finally do appear should have energy densities sufficient to make weekly charging a realistic proposition.
  3. This would dramatically reduce the number of charging points needed, making their installation more likely.
  4. Fast chargers will largely be a waste of money as most charging will be done overnight, for which straightforward 32A (7 kW) sockets should suffice.
  5. There is no reason why ageing diesel engines should not be run on Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil (which by then should be made using green Hydrogen and be 100% Carbon neutral) until they expire.

Meanwhile, if anyone can get hold of small solid-oxide fuel cell (about 1 kW) and run it on LPG they will have an interim solution which knocks spots off the best current generator-based, electric-drive boats.

 

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10 hours ago, Murflynn said:

 most certainly I would but in my experience on the Thames narrowboat owners are not arrogant and "self-entitled" like the blokes wot wear peaked caps with gold braid, and love to lounge on their flying bridge looking down on the hoi-polloi.

I can't say I have met a leisure boat owner who wears a peaked cap let alone one with gold braid although I can't say I have done any boating on the Thames.

Even so you seem to have a stereotypical view  which is very probably not applicable in the majority of  cases.

 

Wasn't there a video clip posted on here of a narrowboat owner ramming a GRP cruiser on the Thames?. Now if ever 'self arrogant self entitled' adjectives applied that was him (the narrowboat skipper).

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

There is also the issue of heating, for all-electric. This could be an even larger consumer, especially on chilly shoulder seasons. 

 

Circa 15 years ago we hired a boat on the Southern Oxford for ourselves and our two teenaged children at  Easter. We had around 4" - 5" snowfall the first night, and the rest of the week was pretty cold during the day too.  Central heating was by diesel, but could only be operated for 8 or 9 hours when moored up before the batteries were drained low enough to automatically turn the heating off. First thing in the morning we had to run the engine to put some charge back in the batteries before the heating would work, fortunately no other moored boats in sight to cause annoyance to. 

 

 I hate to think what size of battery would be needed to provide even 8 hours of electric  heating for a 60' boat in the sub-zero temperatures we do sometimes get in the UK in spring and autumn, let alone in the depths of winter.

 

The boats we used to hire in the 1970's usually had central heating using a gas boiler and gravity circulation for the radiators, and could be left on all night in cold weather without draining the batteries  

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Wasn't there a video clip posted on here of a narrowboat owner ramming a GRP cruiser on the Thames?. Now if ever 'self arrogant self entitled' adjectives applied that was him (the narrowboat skipper).

 

Funny you should mention him. He is currently overstaying in Banbury. Or rather his boat "Justice" has been there every time I've visited Banbury over the last three weeks. Maybe he goes on a 100 mile cruise each time I leave Banbury and gets back just in time for my next passing visit...

 

Or maybe not. 

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

I can't say I have met a leisure boat owner who wears a peaked cap let alone one with gold braid although I can't say I have done any boating on the Thames.

 I bet you’ve met loads of Narrowboat captains wearing an Australian bush hat, neckerchief and waistcoat though, the uniform of choice for the Rosie & Jim club. 

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32 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 I bet you’ve met loads of Narrowboat captains wearing an Australian bush hat, neckerchief and waistcoat though, the uniform of choice for the Rosie & Jim club. 

 

Doubt it on the Trent.

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9 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 I bet you’ve met loads of Narrowboat captains wearing an Australian bush hat, neckerchief and waistcoat though, the uniform of choice for the Rosie & Jim club. 

Now you mention it that does sound familiar.

But in the minority . I wouldn't like to suggest all narrowboaters are the same as they certainly  are not .

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7 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 

Why? Lots of places to moor up on the Trent.

 

I know, that's not the point I was responding to though. You were talking about hats.

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