Woodburners in Bedrooms

[Alan de Enfield]

4 hours ago, TNLI said:

BUT, that differs from the specifications page, so it appears that ASAP have not listed this alarm correctly.

 

Amazing what you find out when you do the proper research and due dilgence.

It is useful to ensure your facts are correct before accusing people of 'deleting' parts of your post.

 

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

I did not know anyone on a canal boat used coal for heating.

 

Maybe take some time to learn about the canals and the boats that use them.

I think you'll find that more boats use 'coal' (smokeless fuel) for heating than use wood, diesel and gas combined.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

I did not know anyone on a canal boat used coal for heating. I've only seen them using wood and gas.

 

Are you being serious? Unless you mean actual 'coal' of course.

 

If you mean 'solid fuel' then this is pure nonsense.

 

What do you think the fuel boats have in all those bags they cruise around the system with?

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Are you being serious? Unless you mean actual 'coal' of course.

 

If you mean 'solid fuel' then this is pure nonsense.

 

What do you think the fuel boats have in all those bags they cruise around the system with?

And all the discussions on this forum about the relative merits and prices of different smokeless fuels.

[Tracy D'arth]

6 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

That figure of 10 years has nothing to do with the battery, as there is a warning for low voltage, It is the life of the unit, after it expires you are supposed to replace the unit. There is no end of life warning, as it would be impossible to use a clock or counter due to flat battery issues. If the alarm keeps going off, the battery goes flat fairly quickly, which is why alarms approved for commercial use have to be wired to the mains with the internal battery as a back up.

  

If you buy safety gear it's a real good idea to check if the company you buy from actually checks if the product is a copy. Very few suppliers do that until after they get a complaint. Also the alarms BG supply were made for them, they are not just ordered from a far Eastern web site that deals with bulk orders. 

 

 

 

 

Why have you removed the second approval, as I posted it as a question about what the second part signifies, so here it is again:

Certified to BS EN50291-1:2010+A1:2012 & BS EN50291-2:2010 

It's the -2:2010 that might signify part 2

 

As far as I can see it does have the approval for part 2, but for some reason only the first part is marked on the unit. 

 

In which case the BSS examiner will fail it as not approved. I think you need to understand what you are being told.

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Thames Bhaji said:

I googled this as I’d never heard of it and was intrigued. If it’s the thing I found (carbon fuel burning device but with combustion products left inside rather than outside) I’d make very, very sure your CO monitor works! 
 

ps I’d be a lot more worried about having any of these on a boat than a correctly flued coal stove.

It's an alcohol burner, and far safer than any other fuel for heating or cooking. In theory it's possible to get some CO produced by any fuel that uses a carbon compound, BUT there has not been one proven CO fatality caused by any type of alcohol, (Meths in the UK), burner as the result of burning alcohol is CO2 and H2O. 

  Even if you have a correctly installed inspected and cleaned coal or charcoal heater/stove, there is no guarantee you will not suffer a CO poisoning incident caused by something unexpected, like a dead rat or damp birds nest.

  If you have a BSS part 2 certified, (I will copy the reply from ASAP about the error with their description where the picture and specifications does not match the Key Features list), CO monitor, buy a second one from a good source that has a digital readout of the actual ppm figure. I've got one that is a combined smoke and digital CO monitor, and I have tested and it works well, but will be replaced before I depart, as it will probably fail prematurely due to corrosion which is made far worse by salt in the air, unless I head for one of the Ukrainian rivers. 

 

One note for folks that are not familiar with my style of posting on this forum, is that I often post several links for further information, BUT the Word program on my old fathers PC is not working, so in order to copy and paste the links one at a time, I have to submit the reply before I've finished writing the post, I even get timed out and have to finish the post with a part 2. YBW forum does allow corrections to a post to be made anytime, which is far better if you need to add or correct or delete a post. 

 The few full time Canal irregulars do know that is how I post, so they always jump in a reply before I've finished. I'm not an expert on BSS regulations apart from they are about as efficient at monitoring safety matters as the government department that overlooked the flammable cladding used on many high rise buildings. For example I've seen canal boats where there is no means for a person who falls overboard getting back onto the boat, (The same is true for many sea going boats), even when a boat builder does include a fold down ladder and a night light to help people find it, they often so what Sunseeker and Princes do, and hide it in a retractable manner just to make it look better.

 

  One of the best old test pilots I flew with as flight test co-pilot many moons ago, Cdr Nick Bennet RN, lost his life when he fell between the bank of the Kennet and Avon canal and his small canal boat after a few whiskies in the local pub. The water was around 0C at the time and he was over 60 years old, so the cold shock in combination with the effects of the alcohol would have knocked him out. He did have a means of boarding his boat unaided, but he was not wearing any type of thermal insulation, like I do. 

 

  If you have to get on and off a boat in a winter, nothing beats a real dry suit, although the cheapest certified one is around 500 quid. I bought a used one for 75 quid from the family of a Papa Alpha rig fire survivor who passed away a few years ago, It is rather dirty with ingrained Carbon particles from the fire, but it is in perfect working order, so I can swim out to a boat in winter, as long as it takes less than about 20 minutes, as that is how long it takes to cool off. The suit I have is a top of the range fire proof one made by a company in Finland, it's listed at 1400 quid new!

 

Carbon monoxide poisoning - NHS (www.nhs.uk)

 

Reply to Tracy:

As regards the post above from a BSS inspection expert, wait until ASAP reply, as they might be selling a different version to the detector in the picture, otherwise they need to change the Keywords section to match the spec's tab and what they are selling.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by TNLI

[GUMPY]

Just purchased one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00503T72E?

For the Caravan, meets the -2 spec and is way cheaper than ASAP 😱

I have similar on the boat and at my BSS inspection this week they were checked to see if they were -2 or not 🤭

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, TNLI said:

For example I've seen canal boats where there is no means for a person who falls overboard getting back onto the boat,

 

So you are suggesting that as it is an RCD legal requirement, to have a means for a 'man overboard' to re-board the boat, all these boats have been built and fraudulently signed off as RCD compliant.

 

Or, 

 

Maybe you just cannot see the means as it is below the water line.

 

Action is taken aganst builders that do not comply - this case that went to court was because the builder did not provide a means or reboarding, stove not fixed and using the wrong glass in the windows :

 

After being found guilty in April of offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

 

 

Hughes admitted to failing to use safety glass in the windows of two doors; that the solid fuel stove had not been bolted to the floor and that he had altered the provision for reboarding without updating his technical documentation.

The court found him guilty on other counts:

. The marine engineer had fitted a propshaft water lubrication intake without a shut-off cock in what Hughes believed was a standard installation to the sterngear manufacturer's specification.

. A grommet had not been fitted to a wire passing through the steel topsides to a light, risking short circuit.

. Gas bottles were not secured.

. The galley door could impact on the gas pipe leading to the cooker risking gas leaks.

. The fuel tank maker hadn't labelled the tanks with capacity information.

. The technical documentation stated that 15,000sq mm of low-level ventilation would "normally" be fitted, but Hughes had provided the 12,500 sq mm required by this particular gas installation.

The magistrates accepted that the breaches were at the lower end of the scale, but that the regulations are in place to ensure the safety of boat users - the bench had a serious concern at the lack of a quality check system. Billy Hughes is now a criminal with a fine amounting to £600.

However the outcome was insufficient for the London solicitor to pursue him for the bigger claim for compensation, which Hughes settled out of court with his customer.

The whole business ultimately put Deeside Narrowboats some £30,000 out of pocket and his customer £10,000. 

 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Just purchased one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00503T72E?

For the Caravan, meets the -2 spec and is way cheaper than ASAP 😱

I have similar on the boat and at my BSS inspection this week they were checked to see if they were -2 or not 🤭

 

This is identical to the model on the boat we hired last week.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Just purchased one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00503T72E?

For the Caravan, meets the -2 spec and is way cheaper than ASAP 😱

I have similar on the boat and at my BSS inspection this week they were checked to see if they were -2 or not 🤭

I bought some of these from Amazon some time ago. They were on a special offer, cheaper,  with Prime which I don't like so I joined, paid and cancelled.

I still got them delivered!

I think they were about £8.

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

This is identical to the model on the boat we hired last week.

ASAP are not cheap, but how do you know if the seller is selling the real item, not just a bad copy in the same box. If it fails all you can do against the majority of online sellers is get your money back. If you buy it from a big shop or real company that is fully registered, then you or your life insurance company can take legal action for selling fakes if it results in a CO incident. 

 

Some of the worst offenders in both the far East and near East buy up containers full of factory rejects, then sell them direct or ship the container to the UK or EU. So what they are selling looks perfect, with all the right packaging, but fails to work. That's why the inspectors should be asking for the associated documentation, like they do for aircraft parts, although we still get issues with faked engine hours or manufacturer date stamps, for so called certified used parts. The fakes are restricted to various nuts and bolts and the FAA and CAA are fairly good at testing and then stopping them getting into the supply chain.

 

  I always fit 2, one for the BSS or insurance surveyor, and the other so I can see a digital read out, for some reason the BSS don't require that feature which is very useful in terms of detecting an exhaust or stove issue well before it sets the alarm off. That second unit is a combined CO and smoke detector.

  

Edited April 2, 2022 by TNLI

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, TNLI said:

ASAP are not cheap, but how do you know if the seller is selling the real item, not just a bad copy in the same box. If it fails all you can do against the majority of online sellers is get your money back. If you buy it from a big shop or real company that is fully registered, then you or your life insurance company can take legal action for selling fakes if it results in a CO incident. 

  

 

Why are you asking me?

 

I've never bought one from Amazon nor in fact one like that at all. 

 

But as you asked you can see on the link @Loddon provided those models are sold and despatched by Amazon themselves not a third party seller. Highly unlikely/impossible to be copies/fakes.

Edited April 2, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[Guest]

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, TNLI said:

ASAP are not cheap, but how do you know if the seller is selling the real item, not just a bad copy in the same box. If it fails all you can do against the majority of online sellers is get your money back. If you buy it from a big shop or real company that is fully registered, then you or your life insurance company can take legal action for selling fakes if it results in a CO incident. 

  

If you don't want your money going to Bond villain Jeff Bezos, then Screwfix do the same Fireangel CO9X model for £16.79. Saves you £11.61. Their cheapest alarm that still has the -2 approval needed for the boat safety scheme is the CO-9B that uses AA batteries, rather than a seven year one and comes in at £14.99. Screwfix do a two pack of TCO-09XQ's that are also -2 compliant for £28.49, so a BOGOF deal, compared with ASAP.

Big retailer, with a good returns policy, so low risk of dodgy fake products. ASAP are firm believers that selling to marine customers means it is fine to double the price.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

ASAP are firm believers that selling to marine customers means it is fine to double the price.

 

Only double?  They must be having a spring sale!

[GUMPY]

7

7 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you don't want your money going to Bond villain Jeff Bezos, then Screwfix do the same Fireangel CO9X model for £16.79. Saves you £11.61. Their cheapest alarm that still has the -2 approval needed for the boat safety scheme is the CO-9B that uses AA batteries, rather than a seven year one and comes in at £14.99. Screwfix do a two pack of TCO-09XQ's that are also -2 compliant for £28.49, so a BOGOF deal, compared with ASAP.

Big retailer, with a good returns policy, so low risk of dodgy fake products.

Amazon is cheaper and I wouldn't have to drive 10 miles to get it.

Amazon are also a big retailer, with a good returns policy, so low risk of dodgy fake products.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

7

Amazon is cheaper and I wouldn't have to drive 10 miles to get it.

Amazon are also a big retailer, with a good returns policy, so low risk of dodgy fake products.

Screwfix are round the corner for me and have most things in stock. If they don't have it then Toolstation is close by and probably does and is probably cheaper still, so more convenient than waiting a day for Amazon. Your situation is different.

Not denying your second sentence at all for their own products.

[TNLI]

27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Screwfix are round the corner for me and have most things in stock. If they don't have it then Toolstation is close by and probably does and is probably cheaper still, so more convenient than waiting a day for Amazon. Your situation is different.

Not denying your second sentence at all for their own products.

Amazon and Ebay are in no way responsible for the goods that an independent seller provides to a customer, and don't inspect anything, although they do respond to customer complaints or government directives. Some of the electrical and electronic components are rather dangerous, cheap inverters in particular. I've bought 3 over the past 4 years just as an interim power supply during the build, and 2 have failed with a dead short. There are no manufacturers ID marks anywhere on one so you can't even figure out who made it, in terms of finding an associated web site. 

 

Screwfix are quite good, and it's one place I use for tools and odds and ends.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by TNLI

[TNLI]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you are suggesting that as it is an RCD legal requirement, to have a means for a 'man overboard' to re-board the boat, all these boats have been built and fraudulently signed off as RCD compliant.

 

Or, 

 

Maybe you just cannot see the means as it is below the water line.

 

Action is taken aganst builders that do not comply - this case that went to court was because the builder did not provide a means or reboarding, stove not fixed and using the wrong glass in the windows :

 

After being found guilty in April of offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

 

 

Hughes admitted to failing to use safety glass in the windows of two doors; that the solid fuel stove had not been bolted to the floor and that he had altered the provision for reboarding without updating his technical documentation.

The court found him guilty on other counts:

. The marine engineer had fitted a propshaft water lubrication intake without a shut-off cock in what Hughes believed was a standard installation to the sterngear manufacturer's specification.

. A grommet had not been fitted to a wire passing through the steel topsides to a light, risking short circuit.

. Gas bottles were not secured.

. The galley door could impact on the gas pipe leading to the cooker risking gas leaks.

. The fuel tank maker hadn't labelled the tanks with capacity information.

. The technical documentation stated that 15,000sq mm of low-level ventilation would "normally" be fitted, but Hughes had provided the 12,500 sq mm required by this particular gas installation.

The magistrates accepted that the breaches were at the lower end of the scale, but that the regulations are in place to ensure the safety of boat users - the bench had a serious concern at the lack of a quality check system. Billy Hughes is now a criminal with a fine amounting to £600.

However the outcome was insufficient for the London solicitor to pursue him for the bigger claim for compensation, which Hughes settled out of court with his customer.

The whole business ultimately put Deeside Narrowboats some £30,000 out of pocket and his customer £10,000. 

 

 

Never said anything about RCD, although most new gin palaces or powerboats seem to have a boarding ladder of some type. The fire risk and fire fighting standards for new boats are a joke. For example a new Sunseeker Manhatten 46 caught fire in the yard some years ago, and the CCTV shows that the time from first visible smoke to max flame height, (Big ball of fire), was 6 minutes. Wild guess but if it had been at sea, then it would have resulted in an evacuation time limit of 2 to 3 minutes before serious smoke and flames. Most plastic, (I refer to polyester as plastic, but high grade real epoxy resin as fiberglass, as there is a huge difference in the two types), boats burn at the same horrific rate, and their designers do not include a serious fire fighting capability into their design concepts. For many bad fires the only way to go is flood valves for the lower section and serious hose spray down from the top through a fire port designed to fit the size of hose. That's how it's done with big ships, and it does work. The only aspect of the RCD that is good relates to smoke detectors. The rest seems to be written with canal boats in mind where suddenly jumping off onto the bank to get away from a fire or sinking near the bank is not the end of the world.

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

I'm still doing some research into which type of heater to fit, as there seem to be some new stainless heaters that run on diesel and are made for Volvo and Merc trucks. I spoken to some users but can't figure out which units are involved. Might finish up using a gen set for direct heating and water proof heat pads for direct local heating. Also looking at heaters like the Origo heat pal that can also be used for cooking.

Are you aware of the deaths due to truck diesel heaters being fitted to boats

[Tracy D'arth]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Are you aware of the deaths due to truck diesel heaters being fitted to boats

He is aware of everything but knows nothing. Pain in the butt.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

He is aware of everything but knows nothing. Pain in the butt.

 

He appears to know so much but in reality knows nothing of use to the forum. His posts often verge on the dangerous, and 'at best' doing as he suggests could involve someone in greater expense than doing the job properly in the 1st place.

[Richard10002]

5 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you don't want your money going to Bond villain Jeff Bezos, then Screwfix do the same Fireangel CO9X model for £16.79.

Are you dure that your money doesnt go to a  Bond villain when you give it to Screwfix?

[TNLI]

6 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I bought some of these from Amazon some time ago. They were on a special offer, cheaper,  with Prime which I don't like so I joined, paid and cancelled.

I still got them delivered!

I think they were about £8.

You don't buy from Amazon, they just connect you with a seller. The Screwfix tip looks good, as that's a real company not an internet seller who can disappear, very quickly. The company that make them seem to have a UK agent arranging sellers for Ebay and Amazon, so there are 2 layers of deniability between the seller and the manufacturer. ASAP do seem a bit over priced on occasions, although their prices for routine service items is OK.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TNLI said:

You don't buy from Amazon, they just connect you with a seller. 

 

That is utter BS.

 

You are confusing Amazon with eBay.

 

Amazon is a direct online retailer but it also runs a 'market place' which allows sellers to use their plarform to sell through.

 

 

[GUMPY]

ASAP owned by the same dodgy company as Euro Car Parts

Screwfix owned by Kingfisher PLC 

Amazon does not run the  same way  as eBay .