Woodburners in Bedrooms

[tree monkey]

4 hours ago, TNLI said:

Just one safety related point about which fuel is used in canal boat stove/heaters, is that the government do not recommend using normal coal for anything, and part of the reason is that if you have a poorly designed chimney it will get blocked twice as fast as with smokeless. Wood blocks up a chimney 4 times as fast, although it depends on the type of wood and how well seasoned it is.

 

  I don't think canal boats suffer from chimney fires in the same way as a house can if it's not cleaned, but to be honest I think using an appliance designed for use in a house inside the confines of a canal boat is very Iffy. The canal boats that were being used by live aboard folks that I have seen in winter along the Thames had their wood stove/heaters next to the main hatch, and were very well ventilated with a short smoke stack, and another one I saw had the heater, (It was supplying hot water and heating), under an awning between the divided cabins. Both of those boaters were using seasoned wood, although that might be because there was a bulk supplier nearby.

I am curious about the 4x faster comment, it's strangely specific, have you got a link to show where that's from

Edited April 4, 2022 by tree monkey

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

You continually show a lack of understanding about what goes on on UK canals.

 

Have you ever actually been on a UK canal? Reading the above would suggest you havent.

 

The vast majority of multi fuel stove installs are perfectly safe. Though before somebody points it out there will be the odd exceptions.

 

Suggesting a stove in a boat is 'iffy' is just plain nonsense.

I have definitely failed to understand how bad things are as regards the unsafe installations on canal boats. I have done 3 canal boat charters, one on the K & A, one mostly along the upper Thames, and the other on the Oxford canal, in addition to the Panama canal Westbound.

 

Most of the coal/wood stoves were on private canal boats and had no approval. If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

 

Lots of things relating to small boat safety are Iffy, and the vast majority means the BSS or insurance inspection folks are out to lunch or short handed, so that does leave too many floating bombs and CO gas chambers, and I'm not a fan of any gas for cooking unless it's Hydrogen, which alas requires expensive new burners, fairly pricey bottles or electrical gas generators. Hydrogen for cooking is a real safe fuel to use in comparison with Propane. Alas there is only one company making real nice stainless stoves and cookers that burn Hydrogen in the UK, and they are far too expensive at present. Hydrogen itself is not too expensive, but the bottles have to be specially lined to prevent corrosion, so cost more. Hydrogen generators are the cheaper way to go if you have spare power.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TNLI

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, TNLI said:

If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

 

In normal English usage, a multi-fuel stove is one that can burn solid fuel (smokeless or coal) and wood. 

 

A wood burner might look similar but doesn't usually have the correct air controls and/or grate for burning solid fuel so may only be used for burning wood.

 

A gas burning stove or an oil burning stove are completely different.

 

High pressure hydrogen storage on a boat sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, and if you happen to have enough spare power to crack water in useful quantities you might as well use a fraction of it for electric heating instead ...

 

You are once again posting misleading and potentially dangerous comments and advice.  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I have definitely failed to understand how bad things are as regards the unsafe installations on canal boats. I have done 3 canal boat charters, one on the K & A, one mostly along the upper Thames, and the other on the Oxford canal, in addition to the Panama canal Westbound.

 

Most of the coal/wood stoves were on private canal boats and had no approval. If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

 

Lots of things in life are Iffy, and the vast majority means the BSS folks are out to lunch or short handed, so that does leave some floating bombs, and I'm not a fan of any gas for cooking unless it's Hydrogen, which alas requires expensive new burners, fairly pricey bottles or electrical gas generators. Hydrogen for cooking is a real safe fuel to use in comparison with Propane. Alas there is only one company making real nice stainless stoves and cookers that burn Hydrogen, and they are far too expensive at present. Hydrogen is not too expensive, but the bottles have to be specially lined to prevent corrosion, so cost more. Hydrogen generators are the cheaper way to go if you have spare power.

 

 

So why are the towpaths not littered with the remains of boaters who have succumbed to 'iffy' stove installations?

 

It is true that it is not possible to install a stove to the exacting specification demanded by one being installed in a house. I know this from having one installed at home and from our boat having one.

 

However that in itself does not make a multi fuel stove on a boat 'iffy'. The hundreds upon hundreds of them installed on boats without incident is testimony to that.

 

Yes they have to be installed in a safe manner but most builders seem to manage this and avoid killing their customers in the process.

 

And yes of course the flue should be regularly swept, but this a much easier task on a boat than on a house.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[GUMPY]

17 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Most of the coal/wood stoves were on private canal boats and had no approval. If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

There is no regulation that I know of that says multi fuel stoves have to be type approved for marine use before being fitted to canal boats. Please post a link to the detailed regulation that says they must be.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

In normal English usage, a multi-fuel stove is one that can burn solid fuel (smokeless or coal) and wood. 

 

A wood burner might look similar but doesn't usually have the correct air controls and/or grate for burning solid fuel so may only be used for burning wood.

 

A gas burning stove or an oil burning stove are completely different.

 

High pressure hydrogen storage on a boat sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, and if you happen to have enough spare power to crack water in useful quantities you might as well use a fraction of it for electric heating instead ...

 

You are once again posting misleading and potentially dangerous comments and advice.  

 

Correct. Our Charnwood stove at home had to have an optional 'riddle' plate added to 'convert' it from wood burning only to 'multi fuel' use including solid fuel.

 

We burn both.

 

But I havent yet found a way to get it to burn diesel...🤣🤣

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[tree monkey]

29 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

So why are the towpaths not littered with the remains of boaters who have succumbed to 'iffy' stove installations?

 

 

You have been away from the canals for a long time, I have got so fed up of stepping on them I now just push them into the cut

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There is no regulation that I know of that says multi fuel stoves have to be type approved for marine use before being fitted to canal boats. Please post a link to the detailed regulation that says they must be.

 

I think what hes driving at is that a stove on a boat cannot be fitted to the same specification as one being fitted in a house.

 

One specific thing I recall from our house install was the proximity of wood (such as skirting boards) to the stove sides. They get fitted in boats with much less distance between them and things like wooden front cabin steps than would be allowed in a house.

 

 

[Bee]

An effective installation I did years ago was an old 'Parkray' with back boiler removed from a house, front part was not bad looking and enamelled, rest of the thing was plug ugly castings and designed to be stuffed into a fireplace / chimney breast so I surrounded it with nice bricks mortared together. Sides, back and top never got very hot but stored a bit of heat and the thing was very effective. In fact I think I did two. I suppose it would be frowned upon nowadays but it was much safer than a good many multifuel stoves with hot sides and backs.

[GUMPY]

8 minutes ago, Bee said:

An effective installation I did years ago was an old 'Parkray'

We had a Parkray in the cottage, it guzzled a 25kg bag a day, not the most efficient piece of kit.

[George and Dragon]

7 hours ago, Loddon said:

I didn't say they did I was talking about ECP, ASAP, MC etc.

Shhhh. Other people may be listening to our conversation... @Jen-in-Wellies said she preferred to spend her money with millionaires rather than billionaires (well, she didn't but that was the meaning I took).  

[GUMPY]

27 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Shhhh. Other people may be listening to our conversation... @Jen-in-Wellies said she preferred to spend her money with millionaires rather than billionaires (well, she didn't but that was the meaning I took).  

I will spend with whoever will deliver to my door with no extra cost, I hate going into shops with a vengance even more so these days.

 

[TNLI]

3 hours ago, Loddon said:

There is no regulation that I know of that says multi fuel stoves have to be type approved for marine use before being fitted to canal boats. Please post a link to the detailed regulation that says they must be.

What happens when the boat has an insurance related survey or BSS related inspection ?? The insurance might not be required for 3rd party insurance, but if the boat is a homebuilt, is over a certain number of years old, made of wood, or has significant modifications from a production standard, then it normally has to be surveyed, although I only had to send pictures for a full Pantsanus policy for my last boat. I would have thought the BSS survey includes any stove or heater. 

 

In insurance terms boats are like cars a regards insuring a production boat, so if you make significant changes to the standard systems that increase the power or might effect safety, the insurance company should be informed. If you don't get a new non marine stove or cooker accepted in writing or company e mail, then it constitutes an unapproved modification, and that can invalidate the hull part of the policy. In a serious case they use the gross negligence get out clause, to dodge a claim. 

  

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, TNLI said:

What happens when the boat has an insurance related survey or BSS related inspection ?? The insurance might not be required for 3rd party insurance, but if the boat is a homebuilt, is over a certain number of years old, made of wood, or has significant modifications from a production standard, then it normally has to be surveyed, although I only had to send pictures for a full Pantsanus policy for my last boat. I would have thought the BSS survey includes any stove or heater. 

 

In insurance terms boats are like cars a regards insuring a production boat, so if you make significant changes to the standard systems that increase the power or might effect safety, the insurance company should be informed. If you don't get a new non marine stove or cooker accepted in writing or company e mail, then it constitutes an unapproved modification, and that can invalidate the hull part of the policy. In a serious case they use the gross negligence get out clause, to dodge a claim. 

  

There are no standard systems.

 

30,000 boats on the UK waterways are mostly insured and solid fuel stoves are fairly standard.

 

You suggest that Morso should not be selling stoves for boats?

[GUMPY]

The stove needs to be fixed down for the BSS 

Insurance companies only require surveys for boats over 30* years old and then they are more interested in the state if the hull rather than the fittings.

 

* sometimes its 25years and some not at all, depending on value.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I would have thought the BSS survey includes any stove or heater. 

 

All the BSS requires is that the stove be checked for no movement, cracks, and no sign of overheating to materials close to it.

 

There is a draft BS for fitting stoves in boats but it is NOT mandatory and is not part of the BSS.

[David Mack]

9 hours ago, TNLI said:

Most of the coal/wood stoves were on private canal boats and had no approval. If you know of a stove that can be used for multi fuels like diesel, gas or wood, please post a link. 

There is a British Standard Code of Practice:

BS 8511:2010 Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel heating and cooking appliances in small craft

It is guidance and compliance is not mandatory.

And this is what the Boat Safety Scheme has to say on the subject of installing solid fuel stoves.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe-advice/solid-fuel-stoves/new-stove-new-chimney/

 

So while you may not think it a good idea, it is clear that officialdom recognises their use.

[gatekrash]

12 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

You suggest that Morso should not be selling stoves for boats?

Or even that 'Boatman Stoves' needs to change his name and target market !

 

Especially as he specifically sells coloured stoves "to match the colour of your boat".

 

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, gatekrash said:

Or even that 'Boatman Stoves' needs to change his name and target market !

 

Especially as he specifically sells coloured stoves "to match the colour of your boat".

 

 

Can't knock Eddie for trying, but I always thought my black stove matched the hull blacking well enough!

[TNLI]

13 hours ago, David Mack said:

There is a British Standard Code of Practice:

BS 8511:2010 Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel heating and cooking appliances in small craft

It is guidance and compliance is not mandatory.

And this is what the Boat Safety Scheme has to say on the subject of installing solid fuel stoves.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe-advice/solid-fuel-stoves/new-stove-new-chimney/

 

So while you may not think it a good idea, it is clear that officialdom recognises their use.

 

13 hours ago, David Mack said:

There is a British Standard Code of Practice:

BS 8511:2010 Code of practice for the installation of solid fuel heating and cooking appliances in small craft

It is guidance and compliance is not mandatory.

And this is what the Boat Safety Scheme has to say on the subject of installing solid fuel stoves.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe-advice/solid-fuel-stoves/new-stove-new-chimney/

 

So while you may not think it a good idea, it is clear that officialdom recognises their use.

The first link is some type of EU related advertising, and the second good link has this part:

 

Choose an appliance that the manufacturer or supplier says is suitable for boats

 

So if you are a good manufacturer you would want to document the build in terms of the exact statements published by the manufacturer, not the seller or store involved. Then you would follow the rest of the installation BSS or manufacturers recommendations. That way you can dodge a potential legal action after the boat is sold, if the new owner blows themselves or the boat up, or finishes up in A&E with CO poisoning. 

  

Most private boat owners seem to ignore any regulations that do not result in them getting fined, or their boat confiscated or impounded as a danger to navigation, but this forum does seem to have a lot of regular posters that encourage others to install domestic appliances for heating and cooking. In reality part of the issue is with the design of modern canal boats, because if you made them a centre cockpit type, (I have seen a few classic ones with that type of design), then you can install a coal or wood stove under an awning, and with loose fitting roll down side covers that would be a safer place for a small diesel gen set, or coal stove. In fact I have already purchased and tested a small wood or charcoal burner for use above the rescue deck:

Portable Camping Tent Wood Burning Stove Ultralight Wood Stove w/ Chimney Pipes | eBay

 

Note that is not the exact one that I purchased, and the pictures are deceptive. The big issue with them in safety terms seem to be that the chimney tubes don't seal up correctly. There are lots of similar stainless or alloy mini stoves, that can be used for one pot or pan, in addition to the heating of a smallish above decks area. Only a mental case would install one below decks, particularly if they used charcoal rather than wood. Some of the sellers of similar products do say they are suitable for a boat, BUT such comments are of no legal significance, as it's the actual manufacturer you need to check in terms of some kind of approval or recommended for use section of a real company web site. Obviously if the company web site is only in Chinese, with no English version, then that's not going to be good news in quality or safety terms. The actual item does need to me marked with a company name in a manner that is difficult to copy, which most are not. Otherwise there is a risk that the item might be a copy. 

 

   I would note that price of wood and coal heaters or stoves has gone up, as has the classic cost of a good used Primus, (I've already restored one). Not checked if the Origo alcohol Heat Pal or expensive electric/alcohol cookers, (Seriously good marine units, but a tad too expensive for me), have gone up even more, although a German company is now making the smaller one and 2 ring burners. No sign of any smaller hydrogen heaters or cookers yet, as I was hoping some company might be selling burner conversion kits. Hydrogen is one safe fuel, as it can't cause a CO risk and is far lighter than air, so if you have a leak it does not collect in the bilges like Propane. 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by TNLI

[GUMPY]

Hydrogen is safe😂 tell that to the occupants of the R101 and LZ129 😱

Edited April 5, 2022 by Loddon

[Guest]

Ah yes - the quality and standard is clearly way superior to a Morso Squirrel we had on the boat or our (British made) Charnwood C5 we have at home.

 

If only I'd known I could have saved hundreds.

 

 

[TNLI]

19 hours ago, Loddon said:

The stove needs to be fixed down for the BSS 

Insurance companies only require surveys for boats over 30* years old and then they are more interested in the state if the hull rather than the fittings.

 

* sometimes its 25years and some not at all, depending on value.

The insurance game is a complicated one, as it depends on the type of insurance policy and what the boat is made of in addition to the material, wood or wood-epoxy boats, (I quite like wood epoxy builds but only if the epoxy glass job is on the outside only. My topside are wood with fiberglass construction panels or alloy non slip plates), is not popular if you are trying to get full agreed value hull insurance. For commercial use or renting out, including the B&B sites, you will probably find a survey is required every year. 

 

  Even if you are a private owner and only need 3rd party, it's a real good idea to get the entire boat surveyed, as it's very easy to miss something important out that could have serious consequences. Some of the worst hull survey results have seen were for new plastic boats, as they had voids all over the place, and in one case I remember that resulted in a total write off, in another a new alloy boat had been painted with Copper based anti fouling, (I think someone in the yard did not like the owners), and had a section of Cooper water pipe at the very bottom of the bilge. I thought it would take a year or so to damage the hull, but it was written off by a surveyor only 2 months after leaving the yard. 

[tree monkey]

22 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Ah yes - the quality and standard is clearly way superior to a Morso Squirrel we had on the boat or our (British made) Charnwood C5 we have at home.

 

If only I'd known I could have saved hundreds.

 

 

Is he really suggesting that as suitable for a boat, I just might be happy to use that under supervision on a patio away from anything flammable but not within a 100 miles of my boat

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Is he really suggesting that as suitable for a boat, I just might be happy to use that under supervision on a patio away from anything flammable but not within a 100 miles of my boat

 

That is how it reads to me. That is what came up on his link.

 

then you can install a coal or wood stove under an awning, and with loose fitting roll down side covers that would be a safer place for a small diesel gen set, or coal stove. In fact I have already purchased and tested a small wood or charcoal burner for use above the rescue deck:

Portable Camping Tent Wood Burning Stove Ultralight Wood Stove w/ Chimney Pipes | eBay