I'm new to boating.. Where is the best to start my journey from?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, IanD said:

You're right about pricing, IIRC residential moorings in West London (e.g. Engineer's Wharf) are about £500/month.

 

Engineers Wharf was £6000 per annum in 2015, has it not increased since then ?

 

 

Limehouse Marina Residential mooring £10,000 - £12,000 per annum

 

When C&RT London moorings go to auction it is not unknown for them to achieve £15,000 per annum depending on location.

Look at C&RTs "Waterside Moorings"

  :: Waterside Moorings

 

For both fixed price and auctioned moorings.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Engineers Wharf was £6000 per annum in 2015, has it not increased since then ?

 

 

Limehouse Marina Residential mooring £10,000 - £12,000 per annum

 

When C&RT London moorings go to auction it is not unknown for them to achieve £15,000 per annum depending on location.

Look at C&RTs "Waterside Moorings"

  :: Waterside Moorings

 

For both fixed price and auctioned moorings.

 

Don't know, their website is down -- but I guess the answer is probably "yes"...

 

The exact amount isn't the issue (and I doubt the OP is looking at Limehouse), the main point is that if the OP wants to stay moored in West London (what she asked for) it's going to cost her quite a lot. For CCing to work she's going to have to go a lot further out (e.g. Brentford to MK) and move every couple of weeks and spend a lot more money on travel -- probably still a lot cheaper than residential mooring in London + Tube fares, though...

Edited February 8, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

14 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Which is exactly why she came here Smart Alec..

 

 

The problem is that few use the search facility on this site by the looks of things, as new boaters are asking the same or similar questions week in week out. Maybe it’s just how people are these days,  they would rather ask a repeat question and just look at the replies then spending time researching.

[Tam & Di]

It will be interesting to see what 'Bia' makes of the comment so far as there's a lot for her to take in that she maybe never took into account when plans of boat living came into her mind. However she's gone far enough to be having a survey today, which may give her a bit of a shock too   😧

 

Tam

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

The problem is that few use the search facility on this site by the looks of things, as new boaters are asking the same or similar questions week in week out. Maybe it’s just how people are these days,  they would rather ask a repeat question and just look at the replies then spending time researching.

 

The search function can be tricky to tame, especially for new members.

 

And importantly, if people stop asking stuff, particularly a new boater in the 'new to boating section' (clue is in the name)  information can quickly become outdated and of no help what so ever to a new boater. To me 'research' includes asking on here.

 

If in anyway people are irritated by repeat questions surely the easiest thing to do is just ignore it, and leave it to someone who has the patience to actually answer their question.

 

Which helpfully some people have actually done.

[PD1964]

7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

The search function can be tricky to tame, especially for new members.

 

And importantly, if people stop asking stuff, particularly a new boater in the 'new to boating section' (clue is in the name)  information can quickly become outdated and of no help what so ever to a new boater. To me 'research' includes asking on here.

 

If in anyway people are irritated by repeat questions surely the easiest thing to do is just ignore it, and leave it to someone who has the patience to actually answer their question.

 

Which helpfully some people have actually done.

Quite simple actually, just search “London” and lots of relevant info all quite current, like this on at the end of November.

 All the replies on here will be quite irrelevant as @Tam & Di says above she is having a survey done today and hopefully buying the boat, maybe it would of been more beneficial if she started her research and asked questions 6 month ago and not the day before her Survey.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Quite simple actually, just search “London” and lots of relevant info all quite current, like this on at the end of November.

 All the replies on here will be quite irrelevant as @Tam & Di says above she is having a survey done today and hopefully buying the boat, maybe it would of been more beneficial if she started her research and asked questions 6 month ago and not the day before her Survey.

 

Yes. Current now. But might not be current in a month or three or four.

 

Also filled with superfluous information not asked for. I'm sure within the 10,000 results there would be something relevant. When I said it was 'hard to tame' I meant to get the info. actually needed, not just by sticking one word in and getting a load of irrelevant stuff.

 

Easy being wise after the event isn't it?

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[Stroudwater1]

I cant see that Ealing was mentioned in that one TBF ☺️

[PD1964]

3 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Yes. Current now. But might not be current in a month or three or four. Also filled with superfluous information not asked for.

 

Easy being wise after the event isn't it?

 

 

  As you say current now and she is asking the question now, so could be beneficial to her now, I imagine the CC’ing problems around London haven’t changed much in a couple of month.

1 minute ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I cant see that Ealing was mentioned in that one TBF ☺️

I’ve haven’t read it, as probably like most replying here I’m not in London, but I imagine she would get some idea of the problems she will face in the London canal area with CCing.

[Guest]

Just now, PD1964 said:

  As you say current now and she is asking the question now, so could be beneficial to her now, I imagine the CC’ing problems around London haven’t changed much in a couple of month.

 

 

You miss the point, yes she is asking now but what happens if somebody wants to know the same thing in 6 months? And they just look at old posts? Because they saw somebody complained about repeat postings from newbies? And CRT are now carrying out maintenance on a set of moorings that are now not available but been mentioned in a six month old post?

 

This is why people get put off coming here and gravitate to things like the London boaters Facebook pages and other Facebook groups.

 

Or to ask it another way.

 

How is information on here to be kept current if a newby just gets told to 'use the search function'.

 

 

[PD1964]

20 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

 

You miss the point, yes she is asking now but what happens if somebody wants to know the same thing in 6 months? And they just look at old posts? Because they saw somebody complained about repeat postings from newbies? And CRT are now carrying out maintenance on a set of moorings that are now not available but been mentioned in a six month old post?

 

This is why people get put off coming here and gravitate to things like the London boaters Facebook pages and other Facebook groups.

 

Or to ask it another way.

 

How is information on here to be kept current if a newby just gets told to 'use the search function'.

 

 

 She is asking current, as I say she could read the post from November and get a pretty much up to date answer to CCing. Can you please give her the current situation as of today and your experience of CCing this week in London this month? Anyone?

 Maybe she is better off going on London Boaters Facebook, as they live in London and are current with the situation.

  

[Guest]

Just now, PD1964 said:

 She is asking current, as I say she could read the post from November and get a pretty much up to date answer to CCing. Can you please give her the current situation as of today and your experience of CCing this week in London this month? Anyone?

 Maybe she is better off going on London Boaters Facebook, as they live in London and are current with the situation.

  

 

The only way it could work is if there was an a FAQ section that was kept up to date with somebody being designated to keep each FAQ completely up to date. It could be done for a number of things that frequently come up. However I doubt many/any would take this on.

 

Until then then repeat questions will come up so we will just have to accept that.

[Tam & Di]

My problem with Newbie questions is the newbies - there are too many of them. Some may change their mind when they read the answers, but too many don't and the system cannot accommodate them. But on the other hand I just cannot bring myself to deflate a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed person's ideas without at least letting them down gently.

 

I probably wouldn't have been trying to save canals in the 50s and 60s if I knew they were going to become what they are now, but who knows? - each newbie has the potential to become a person with a deep love of canals, viewing them as far more than as cheap accommodation. And in the meantime, if someone asks about CCing with access to Ealing I'm willing to throw in my pennyworth.

 

Tam

 

[dave moore]

Tam, you are not alone. My involvement goes back to the early 60s, when as a schoolboy I joined the crew of Bumblebee, the school’s wooden joey, converted by a previous woodwork master. This was at Harris’s yard, Netherton, and I was fortunate to meet Malcolm Braine there soon afterwards. He opened my eyes to a wider canal world than the school boat and I became an enthusiast, involved with restoration projects and the tail end of carrying, which you know so much better than I. The majority of boaters then we’re enthusiasts too, committed to preserving the system and respectful, in the main, of the prevailing ethos. Sadly, this has been eroded as more and more boaters have come to the cut with little or no interest in how things were or what has gone before and there is much more of a client mentality abroad these days. All of the older greybeards that I’m in touch with have a similar mindset...the Wain’s, Coopers, and many others. I doubt that little can be done about this, Ian Kemp thought that the things we oldies hold dear will be carried forward by a caring few. 

I hope he’s right!

[Rob-M]

28 minutes ago, dave moore said:

Tam, you are not alone. My involvement goes back to the early 60s, when as a schoolboy I joined the crew of Bumblebee, the school’s wooden joey, converted by a previous woodwork master. This was at Harris’s yard, Netherton, and I was fortunate to meet Malcolm Braine there soon afterwards. He opened my eyes to a wider canal world than the school boat and I became an enthusiast, involved with restoration projects and the tail end of carrying, which you know so much better than I. The majority of boaters then we’re enthusiasts too, committed to preserving the system and respectful, in the main, of the prevailing ethos. Sadly, this has been eroded as more and more boaters have come to the cut with little or no interest in how things were or what has gone before and there is much more of a client mentality abroad these days. All of the older greybeards that I’m in touch with have a similar mindset...the Wain’s, Coopers, and many others. I doubt that little can be done about this, Ian Kemp thought that the things we oldies hold dear will be carried forward by a caring few. 

I hope he’s right!

Hopefully there are enough of us who want to continue to see the canals for what they were and not as a floating caravan park.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

 And in the meantime, if someone asks about CCing with access to Ealing I'm willing to throw in my pennyworth.

 

You will be happy to know that there is a 2nd lake in that park ripe for occupation.😁

[BilgePump]

Firstly, I wish the OP the best. They came to ask questions in a very respectful post. The fact that some folks here may have had decades of experience on the canals and have seen many similar posts before should not stop those old hands from again offering their significant knowledge. Links or cut/paste work fine, and smug post don't make anyone look good.

 

There are so many newspaper articles, TV shows, YouTube channels etc all hyping up the loveliness of living on a boat and cruising in July. They don't show being stuck in December with a broken alternator, immobile, no 12v and by the end only half a toilet tank empty because the full one on the back deck is near frozen solid, even if you could trundle it a mile to the loo station. For me, on my own, that was two weeks of fun, and pints in the pub when recharging laptop and phone. For some people, it would be hell. And I could have run off to a bricks and mortar home if it was too much. 

 

I really do encourage the OP not to do anything in haste and do a bit more research. The realistic expectations of CaRT - ABABAB isn't acceptable. Continuous cruising is a journey that goes ABCDEDEFGHIHJKL etc. You may backtrack to nip back to a shop but there is a progression. If someone goes 25 miles in one direction from their favoured place, backtracks and then goes 25 on the other side, within a year, in multiple movements, they'll be happy. Only wanting to move a couple of miles either side of a favoured place and that won't work. A mooring would be necessary. Sometimes better to Google 'Cart Section 8' than picture perfect depictions of life on the cut.

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Hopefully there are enough of us who want to continue to see the canals for what they were and not as a floating caravan park.

 

I'm not sure what it is that you want from new boat owners Rob? 

To see the canals 'as they were' is not possible, because there are so few genuine traditional boats around, and there is almost no busy commercial boat traffic, as there was in the 19th century canal heydays.

The old days are a memory, not a reality. There is nothing to see except film footage, interviews and old photos. What do you want boaters to do? Are you offended because they 'see' the waterways in a different way to you? 

 

What time period would you prefer your ideal image of the canals to be taken? Is it the age of Lister engines, or should it be only horses, which would probably be more authentic in terms of the true commercial life of the canals? 

Many new boaters don't know anything about the history of the waterways, because its something you have to go proactively looking for.

Are you saying they should make a study of this, and conjure up an inner respect and love for a canal culture that largely stopped almost a century ago? 

 

Don't get me wrong- there is something lovely about the sound of the fuel boat engines, and the lines of those craft. But we cant live in them. Even their hardy crews tell me they stay aboard only for the actual trip. The reality at the moment is that very few people are going to buy trad narrowboats with tiny stern cabins to live on the canals They are going to buy boats they can live on.

If that makes the canals a floating caravan park, then its probably worth remembering that the license fees paid by those floating caravan owners add up to several tens of millions, and make a substantial contribution to the works that keep the locks functioning and the waterways clear. 

Without all the floating caravans using them and helping to pay for their upkeep, it is not 100% certain that all of the current locks and other infrastructure would have a future as functioning hardware. 

The restoration work of the canal societies has been invaluable, and without their selfless dedication we would not have many stretches of canal that we now have, but being hostile and dismissive to owners of modern boats might not be the best way to win over converts to the cause of waterways preservation.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Tony1

[Rob-M]

25 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'm not sure what it is that you want from new boat owners Rob? 

To see the canals 'as they were' is not possible, because there are so few genuine traditional boats around, and there is almost no busy commercial boat traffic, as there was in the 19th century canal heydays.

The old days are a memory, not a reality. There is nothing to see except film footage, interviews and old photos. What do you want boaters to do? Are you offended because they 'see' the waterways in a different way to you? 

 

What time period would you prefer your ideal image of the canals to be taken? Is it the age of Lister engines, or should it be only horses, which would probably be more authentic in terms of the true commercial life of the canals? 

Many new boaters don't know anything about the history of the waterways, because its something you have to go proactively looking for.

Are you saying they should make a study of this, and conjure up an inner respect and love for a canal culture that largely stopped almost a century ago? 

 

Don't get me wrong- there is something lovely about the sound of the fuel boat engines, and the lines of those craft. But we cant live in them. Even their hardy crews tell me they stay aboard only for the actual trip. The reality at the moment is that very few people are going to buy trad narrowboats with tiny stern cabins to live on the canals They are going to buy boats they can live on.

If that makes the canals a floating caravan park, then its probably worth remembering that the license fees paid by those floating caravan owners add up to several tens of millions, and make a substantial contribution to the works that keep the locks functioning and the waterways clear. 

Without all the floating caravans using them and helping to pay for their upkeep, it is not 100% certain that all of the current locks and other infrastructure would have a future as functioning hardware. 

The restoration work of the canal societies has been invaluable, and without their selfless dedication we would not have many stretches of canal that we now have, but being hostile and dismissive to owners of modern boats might not be the best way to win over converts to the cause of waterways preservation.

 

 

Canals were built for boats to move along so that would be a good start, having some understanding of the history or at least an interest in why canals were built would also be my preference.  I own a modern boat so not expecting everyone to be restoring old working boats and I have modern additions like an inverter and LED lights unlike when I boated with my parents who had paraffin lights and a single 12v leisure battery.

I do volunteer with the heritage working boats so I get opportunities to take old working boats out and have spent 5 days living in a small cabin and wouldn't want to do it full time.

 

[Tony1]

24 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Canals were built for boats to move along so that would be a good start, having some understanding of the history or at least an interest in why canals were built would also be my preference.  I own a modern boat so not expecting everyone to be restoring old working boats and I have modern additions like an inverter and LED lights unlike when I boated with my parents who had paraffin lights and a single 12v leisure battery.

I do volunteer with the heritage working boats so I get opportunities to take old working boats out and have spent 5 days living in a small cabin and wouldn't want to do it full time.

 

 

 

Apologies Rob, I hadn't realised you were referring to boats being static when you made the caravan comparison. 

I personally agree with you about the boats moving thing, in fact I could live with a 7 day max mooring period and a LOT more active enforcement of the rules, as opposed to some people seeming to stay in the same 48 hour mooring for months on end. So yes, I'm with you on that. 

But that's only my view, and I know it seems like lots of London boaters take the mick, with only moving 20 miles per year and using their boats as cheap accommodation- but on the plus side, they have created a large community of people who are contributing to the life of the city, in terms of living and working within London, and they also constitute an interesting and unique sub-culture. They are creating what will become the modern cultural history of the London waterways. That doesn't feel like a bad thing.

 

And I must say again that the work of the volunteer societies who just love the waterways has been invaluable- its amazing to think we wouldnt have the Anderton boat lift if not for the help of volunteers. 

 

I think many boaters would admire the history and culture of the waterways if they knew it, but the reality is that it does seem at the moment to be a waning area of interest. One cant force new boaters to feel a connection with the history, so maybe a more positive engagement by the older and more knowledgeable people is the way to do it. 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Tony1

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Tony1 said:

But that's only my view, and I know it seems like lots of London boaters take the mick, with only moving 20 miles per year and using their boats as cheap accommodation- but on the plus side, they have created a large community of people who are contributing to the life of the city, in terms of living and working within London, and they also constitute an interesting and unique sub-culture. They are creating what will become the modern cultural history of the London waterways. That doesn't feel like a bad thing.

 

When I moved to London in 1980, the picture was very different. The last remants of commercial traffic were still there on the lower Lee and a little at Brentford, but the Grand Union, Paddington Arm and Regents were virtually deserted. The BW yard at Bulls Bridge was still operational, with Tam and Di's place opposite. Then nothing until you reached the permanent moorings at Little Venice, the wide east of Maida Hill Tunnel, St Pancras Basin and Battlebridge Basin. Then nothing again until Springfield Marina on the Lee. Paddington Basin, City Road Basin, Wenlock Basin, Kingsland Basin were all empty. Limehouse Basin, larger then than now, was just an empty expanse of water with the odd load of scrap metal being loaded from a wharf on the north side. You would be lucky to see a boat, moving or moored on the Regents. It was all regarded as 'badlands', and it was frequently suggested that it was unsafe to go there alone. Boaters rarely ventured down there, and organised cruises made up a significant proportion of the total boat traffic. The towpath was mostly closed off - you had to know where the few access points were to get on and off. If you cycled them, as I did, you were supposed to have a bike permit (but I never got one). The surroundings were mostly scruffy industrial (or ex-industrial), with decaying factory buildings up to the waters edge, or vacant sites where buidlings had been demolished but redevelopment was yet to happen.

London IWA were desparate for ideas how to get people to use these waterways more.

It has all changed enormously since then!

[john.k]

AS someone commented....at least the OP asked advice ......how many watching the latest "Tiny Houses" series on telly will just barge ahead   ...(pun there ,for the ex headmasters).....,and be extremely agressive and obnoxious. to get what they want...........I see at least one "living cheap on a canal barge" segment on telly every week now.........buuut,the silliest thing Ive seen involved a one car garage converted ....the walls and end put on wheels so the whole structure can be reduced to its approved size when the council inspectors come calling......

[doratheexplorer]

12 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Apologies Rob, I hadn't realised you were referring to boats being static when you made the caravan comparison. 

 

 

 

If all those static boats started moving, there would be chaos.  Beware what you wish for.

[Tam & Di]

12 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

 but on the plus side, they have created a large community of people who are contributing to the life of the city, in terms of living and working within London, and they also constitute an interesting and unique sub-culture. They are creating what will become the modern cultural history of the London waterways. That doesn't feel like a bad thing.

 

Though as far as the local Councils who have to fund all the services are concerned they don't contribute any Council tax element. Nor as CCers do they contribute via mooring fees to CRTs coffers.

 

Tam

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

Though as far as the local Councils who have to fund all the services are concerned they don't contribute any Council tax element. Nor as CCers do they contribute via mooring fees to CRTs coffers.

 

Tam

 

Tam, I'm not here to mount a defence of the London boater community- for one thing I don't know enough about it. There are better-qualified people for that job. 

 

But from a sense of fairness, I will say that they do at least pay their CC license, and for that they obtain water, refuse and elsan-type facilities, the same as the other CCers- so they are paying something. 

 

You could also argue that they don't use some of the services of the local council (eg refuse and water), they are using CRT services instead.

So they are not getting a completely 'free ride' in that respect. 

 

And Dora makes a good point- imagine if the thousands of London boats were suddenly forced out onto the general system. Things are already busy enough in the summer months.