All Electric?

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well it depends on how much lithium you want, obviously! The OP’s batteries are pretty expensive, my 600Ah cost £1800, but if I’d bought them this year it would have been more like £1400. So £10k gets you about 4200Ah. Which is “quite a lot a”!

Those prices are pretty cheap -- new or secondhand, bare cells or batteries, home-brewed or commercial BMS?

 

No boat builder (OP is specifying a new boat) is likely to use second-hand cells or a cheap home-brewed BMS because of support/warranty issues. Commercial prices are at least 50% higher than your figures, or even double depending on supplier...

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Mike1951 said:

£10K of batteries to go Lithium

Even buying them form Amazon would only be £2K for the same Ah as your lead Acid and you get nearly twice as much from them and can put it back twice as fast

19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well it depends on how much lithium you want, obviously! The OP’s batteries are pretty expensive, my 600Ah cost £1800, but if I’d bought them this year it would have been more like £1400. So £10k gets you about 4200Ah. Which is “quite a lot a”!

The batteries the OP specified are going to cost a grand so about the same price as off the shelf Lithium's for the same usable power.

[pearley]

We've had 14 years living on a gas free boat but with a 7 KVA generator to power most things.

 

Our new boat has a 175amp alternator, 600 amp/hr of Leoch Lead Carbon batteries and Victron 3000 Multiplus. For cooking we have a 2 ring induction hob, each ring rated at 1200w, Neff oven dated at 3000w, kettle at 2200w and toaster 1200w. 

 

For winter we are on a shoreline so use the Multiplus to do it's thing and boost the 16a supply if necessary. When out, we can boil the kettle for tea and use the toaster for breakfast, but we don't do it at the same time. We can use one ring of the hob if we want but generally the hob would be used at the same time as the oven. That's why we also have a Beta 10 gennie.

 

We have the mindset of always counting power consumption to ensure we stay within the inverter capacity.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Even buying them form Amazon would only be £2K for the same Ah as your lead Acid and you get nearly twice as much from them and can put it back twice as fast

The batteries the OP specified are going to cost a grand so about the same price as off the shelf Lithium's for the same usable power.

A reputable boatbuilder is not going to use no-name lithium cells off Amazon or Ebay, there are a huge number of substandard cells out there, either QC rejects or lowest-grade cells from the Chinese factories -- they'll want to buy a matched set of cells from a reputable supplier, together with a known-to-work and supported BMS that protects them properly. Otherwise there's no way they can provide the warranty and support needed for a new boat build. Go and talk to people building electric boats if you don't believe me.

 

For all this, the cost is considerably higher than the numbers which keep being floated around, which are basically for DIY builds from the cheapest possible sources -- which is fine if you've got the knowledge to do that, and accept the responsibility if it all goes tits-up...

18 minutes ago, pearley said:

We've had 14 years living on a gas free boat but with a 7 KVA generator to power most things.

 

Our new boat has a 175amp alternator, 600 amp/hr of Leoch Lead Carbon batteries and Victron 3000 Multiplus. For cooking we have a 2 ring induction hob, each ring rated at 1200w, Neff oven dated at 3000w, kettle at 2200w and toaster 1200w. 

 

For winter we are on a shoreline so use the Multiplus to do it's thing and boost the 16a supply if necessary. When out, we can boil the kettle for tea and use the toaster for breakfast, but we don't do it at the same time. We can use one ring of the hob if we want but generally the hob would be used at the same time as the oven. That's why we also have a Beta 10 gennie.

 

We have the mindset of always counting power consumption to ensure we stay within the inverter capacity.

Having an onboard diesel generator solves a lot of the problems. Also costs about £10000, which I suspect the OP would not like...

 

He's trying to do "gas-free" on the cheap, and I suspect will find out quite quickly all the problems of cutting corners in doing so.

 

Doing gas-free properly (bigger inverter/battery bank/generator/LiFePO4 -- many possibilities) is worthwhile (for some) but expensive...

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[Detling]

So how about 4 of these ?

https://www.lifebatteries.co.uk/product-page/150ah-lifepo4

£635.00 x 4 = £2540 for which you have 600 Ah capable of 400amps plus discharge charge ridiculously fast so some alternator protection system to control the alternator add 4 or 500 quid and as they say jobs a good un.  Lithium prices have come down and will probably go down more yet.  It is getting close to a no brainer on a new build as you are likely to have to replace at least once if not more with any form of lead for the same lifespan. Retrofitting lithium is more expensive as so much needs changing but when buying new you haven't got those bits to throw away. Another 'essential' is solar even if only a few hundred watts, it will save CO2 production somewhere either your engine, or the power station, and even on shorepower will pay for itself in a few years, offgrid probably in the first year or so.

https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/complete-packages/295W-victron-kit-mppt-mounting

£450 just needs fitting.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Detling
extra information

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, Detling said:

So how about 4 of these ?

https://www.lifebatteries.co.uk/product-page/150ah-lifepo4

£635.00 x 4 = £2540 for which you have 600 Ah capable of 400amps plus discharge charge ridiculously fast so some alternator protection system to control the alternator add 4 or 500 quid and as they say jobs a good un.  Lithium prices have come down and will probably go down more yet.  It is getting close to a no brainer on a new build as you are likely to have to replace at least once if not more with any form of lead for the same lifespan. Retrofitting lithium is more expensive as so much needs changing but when buying new you haven't got those bits to throw away. Another 'essential' is solar even if only a few hundred watts, it will save CO2 production somewhere either your engine, or the power station, and even on shorepower will pay for itself in a few years, offgrid probably in the first year or so.

https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/complete-packages/295W-victron-kit-mppt-mounting

£450 just needs fitting.

 

 

So including alternator controller that's about £3000 for 600Ah, which is just over double the £1400 that Nick quoted -- which is precisely what I said... 😉

 

In reality this will give more usable capacity than 600Ah of lead-carbon, but also at 2.5x the cost. LiFePO4 would make this up with longer lifetime in the long term if you used the boat every day, but having batteries that would last 30 years instead of 10 with the OPs planned use isn't really helpful...

 

I'm all in favour of lithium where they make sense, but this doesn't seem to be the case here -- lead-carbon will be topped up to 100% when plugged into the shoreline (most of the time) so no long engine hours running to get to 100%, will have enough lifetime to outlast the OP when only used for short weekend trips, and are less than half the price.

 

Solar is great for keeping batteries topped up and avoiding generator/engine running for CCing, but neither are relevant to the OP. From the money point of view, a 300W kit will yield about 1kWh/day average in summer and 200Wh/day in winter, say 0.6kWh/day average over the year which is 220kWh/year, worth about £40. So payback period is more than 10 years...

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Those prices are pretty cheap -- new or secondhand, bare cells or batteries, home-brewed or commercial BMS?

 

No boat builder (OP is specifying a new boat) is likely to use second-hand cells or a cheap home-brewed BMS because of support/warranty issues. Commercial prices are at least 50% higher than your figures, or even double depending on supplier...

New bare cells. In my case yes with home-brewed BMS but a REC BMS wouldn’t add much to the bill. Lots of,people have bought “drop in replacement” batteries from Victron, Mastervolt etc at massive cost and still had problems. Anyway, a boat builder will probably install whatever you want, it’s just that he may or may not agree to support and warranty it. This was certainly the case with our Empirbus system - Steve didn’t particularly want to install it as he didn’t understand it, but was happy to do so to my design and my responsibility.

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

In reality this will give more usable capacity than 600Ah of lead-carbon, but also at 2.5x the cost. LiFePO4 would make this up with longer lifetime in the long term if you used the boat every day, but having batteries that would last 30 years instead of 10 with the OPs planned use isn't really helpful...

 

I bet he doesn't get 10 years with his planned usage, Cooking dinner in an electric oven or electric hot plate with that sort of capacity and then needing to run the engine for 6 hours the next day to get them near recharged.

IMO the op's plan is not feasible and needs rethinking in ether not being all electric or design an electrical system that will support his plans

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I bet he doesn't get 10 years with his planned usage, Cooking dinner in an electric oven or electric hot plate with that sort of capacity and then needing to run the engine for 6 hours the next day to get them near recharged.

IMO the op's plan is not feasible and needs rethinking in ether not being all electric or design an electrical system that will support his plans

Beta 43 with Travelpower would be my minimum for that sort of thing. And a hospital silencer so you can run it without being too annoying!

[IanD]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

New bare cells. In my case yes with home-brewed BMS but a REC BMS wouldn’t add much to the bill. Lots of,people have bought “drop in replacement” batteries from Victron, Mastervolt etc at massive cost and still had problems. Anyway, a boat builder will probably install whatever you want, it’s just that he may or may not agree to support and warranty it. This was certainly the case with our Empirbus system - Steve didn’t particularly want to install it as he didn’t understand it, but was happy to do so to my design and my responsibility.

Which is great for you, you're an expert lithium/BMS hacker 😉

 

No use for the OP though, he needs a working supported system which doesn't rely on him to be an expert, and this costs about double your figure -- as the numbers above show.

 

I really wish people would think about what the person asking the question actually needs, not just come up with low prices based on what they did themselves... 😉

 

(are you taking note, Peter?)

Just now, nicknorman said:

Beta 43 with Travelpower would be my minimum for that sort of thing. And a hospital silencer so you can run it without being too annoying!

That could make more sense, but might be more expensive given the price of a Travelpower... 😉

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Which is great for you, you're an expert lithium/BMS hacker 😉

 

No use for the OP though, he needs a working supported system which doesn't rely on him to be an expert, and this costs about double your figure -- as the numbers above show.

 

I really wish people would think about what the person asking the question actually needs, not just come up with low prices based on what they did themselves... 😉

 

(are you taking note, Peter?)

increasingly though, there are people out there who are competent with lithium battery systems who could be contracted to build and install your system. I’m sure it would be a lot cheaper than a Victron or Mastervolt system. I thinking of this chap in particular…

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/lithium-batteries/

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

increasingly though, there are people out there who are competent with lithium battery systems who could be contracted to build and install your system. I’m sure it would be a lot cheaper than a Victron or Mastervolt system. I thinking of this chap in particular…

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/lithium-batteries/

 

Indeed -- and by the time he's bought the components, built and installed and tested the system, and paid himself for his work and what he's invested in bringing all this up (it's obvious that he really knows his stuff), I can pretty much guarantee the end cost will be about 2x that of the raw cells...

 

(still cheaper than Victron or Mastervolt though, their prices are much higher still)

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That could make more sense, but might be more expensive given the price of a Travelpower... 😉

And that's the rub, there isn't a cheap way for what the OP is trying to do. Yes its possible but its going to cost. At the end of the day a standard gas installation is the cheapest way to go. Why a gas bottle, regulator and length of copper pipe should cost so much on a new build I don't know

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Why a gas bottle, regulator and length of copper pipe should cost so much on a new build I don't know

 

"Because they can"

 

You want a new boat, you pay the asking price.

[dmr]

My views on this are a little different to most others.

I did assist in putting out a boat fire in the summer which was due to taking big currents out of a 12volt battery.

If you must go all electric/cook electric then taking 100's amps out of 12 volt batteries is inelegant, inefficient and potentially dangerous so I suggest a 48 volt system based on something like the Pylontech Lithiums. Get at least 6kW-h. There are 48 volts alternators available (Balmar) but they cost. A 48 to 12 volt converter should drive all the low current 12 volt stuff like lights and pumps. I think you can use a Victron solar controller for this. A single 12 volt battery might be needed. A nice big 48 volt inverter charger will keep the batteries charged on landline and let you cook or run a washing machine off grid.

This will all work out a bit more costly than gas. 😀

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, dmr said:

My views on this are a little different to most others.

I did assist in putting out a boat fire in the summer which was due to taking big currents out of a 12volt battery.

If you must go all electric/cook electric then taking 100's amps out of 12 volt batteries is inelegant, inefficient and potentially dangerous so I suggest a 48 volt system based on something like the Pylontech Lithiums. Get at least 6kW-h. There are 48 volts alternators available (Balmar) but they cost. A 48 to 12 volt converter should drive all the low current 12 volt stuff like lights and pumps. I think you can use a Victron solar controller for this. A single 12 volt battery might be needed. A nice big 48 volt inverter charger will keep the batteries charged on landline and let you cook or run a washing machine off grid.

This will all work out a bit more costly than gas. 😀

I agree that higher voltage batteries is the way to go, I suggested 24V because the OPs planned Beta 38 can have a 24V 100A alternator fitted (polyvee driven), with an external controller if required.

 

If he goes to a Beta 43 this can have 2 series 24V 100A alternators fitted with an external alternator controller like the Wakespeed, this is much cheaper than a 48V Balmar alternator and a lot friendlier on the polyvee drives -- I had a lot of conversations with Tim Watts at Beta about this when I was looking at a gas-free boat.

 

The lithium vs. lead-carbon decision in independent of voltage, for the OPs planned usage (not very much!) the longer lifetime of lithium (and no long equalisation) aren't an advantage but the bigger cost is a disadvantage.

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

I agree that higher voltage batteries is the way to go, I suggested 24V because the OPs planned Beta 38 can have a 24V 100A alternator fitted (polyvee driven), with an external controller if required.

 

If he goes to a Beta 43 this can have 2 series 24V 100A alternators fitted with an external alternator controller like the Wakespeed, this is much cheaper than a 48V Balmar alternator and a lot friendlier on the polyvee drives -- I had a lot of conversations with Tim Watts at Beta about this when I was looking at a gas-free boat.

 

I don't like the idea of series alternators, just feels wrong. You could maybe make an argument that two alternators on opposite sides of the engine help cancel out the side load on the main bearings but this does not appear to be a real issue. I was having a quick look at 48 volt systems just to have a "plan B" half ready should the TravelPower ever fail beyond repair. I would even consider 96volts but the components just aren't available so 48 looks like the best option to me.

If I was going for full electric drive then maybe 96 would be the way to go.

 

The Balmar does look very expensive, I suspect it might work out cheaper to find somebody to re-wind a 12 volt alternator. 😀 (which is what TravelPower does)

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I don't like the idea of series alternators, just feels wrong. You could maybe make an argument that two alternators on opposite sides of the engine help cancel out the side load on the main bearings but this does not appear to be a real issue. I was having a quick look at 48 volt systems just to have a "plan B" half ready should the TravelPower ever fail beyond repair. I would even consider 96volts but the components just aren't available so 48 looks like the best option to me.

If I was going for full electric drive then maybe 96 would be the way to go.

 

The Balmar does look very expensive, I suspect it might work out cheaper to find somebody to re-wind a 12 volt alternator. 😀 (which is what TravelPower does)

 

2 series 24V Iskra (standard) alternators is exactly what the Beta parallel hybrid solution (needs Beta 43) has used for years with no problems, cost was about a quarter of a single Balmar 48V and with more output at lower engine speeds -- and easier to cool, and easily replaceable from stock if they ever die. The belt issue is not just side thrust but belt loading, plus extra cost for Beta to mount/setup/test the Balmar 48V and check that it doesn't cause any problems -- I suggest you talk to Beta (like I did) instead of speculating 😉

 

Boatbuilders won't go above 48V (even for electric drive) because this gets you into the "high voltage" domain where all of a sudden lots of extra safety/insulation/shielding requirements come in.

 

A lower cost alternative which should meet the OPs requirements would be to keep the Beta 38 with a 65A/12V alternator for engine/lights and a 24V/100A alternator for domestic power (again, talk to Beta, this is not in their standard list), then he can use a Multiplus II 24/5000 and a 24V battery bank -- though a 48V/5000 MP II is £500 cheaper...

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Boatbuilders won't go above 48V (even for electric drive) because this gets you into the "high voltage" domain where all of a sudden lots of extra safety/insulation/shielding requirements come in.

 

Many years ago I was working with Jaguar on moving to 48v as the harness was too big and stiff, increasing the voltage meaant they could reduce the cable size.

It didn't happen because whilst it was a 48v system the charging (alternator) voltage ran over into the HV legislation and the rules just made it impractical.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Many years ago I was working with Jaguar on moving to 48v as the harness was too big and stiff, increasing the voltage meaant they could reduce the cable size.

It didn't happen because whilst it was a 48v system the charging (alternator) voltage ran over into the HV legislation and the rules just made it impractical.

48V isn't HV nowadays even allowing for maximum possible battery voltage, which is why all the mild hybrid cars use 48V. I think maybe the legislative voltage boundary was tweaked upwards by a few volts for exactly this reason...

 

BTW here are some alternator plots which might be relevant -- shows why a Wakespeed controller which can pull back current at idle revs is a good idea... 😉

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by IanD

[Slim]

9 hours ago, Mike1951 said:

Heaving heavy gas bottles as we get older

Specify smaller bottles.  

[PD1964]

Have you got a boat builder booked? Or are you just speccing out in your head before you visit a builder to discuss?

  If you have a builder, will you name them?

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by PD1964

[Mike1951]

Yes. Colecraft they estimate about £20K with Lithium batts 43HP engine bigger alternators, bigger inverter so would be out of our budget. This is based on the last one they did all electric recently

 

[David Mack]

So £20k for Lithiums, or £1,300 for gas, or no hot food. Seems a no brainer to me!

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So £20k for Lithiums, or £1,300 for gas, or no hot food. Seems a no brainer to me!

 

Deliveroo?