All Electric?

[IanD]

16 hours ago, Mike1951 said:

Yes. Colecraft they estimate about £20K with Lithium batts 43HP engine bigger alternators, bigger inverter so would be out of our budget. This is based on the last one they did all electric recently

 

Colecraft are taking the p*ss with that figure. I looked at this in depth about a year ago and even allowing for the engine mods (Beta 43 with 2 big 24V alternators and external controller) and bigger inverter and lithium batteries the cost was under £10k, exact figure depends on size of battery bank.

 

Still *way* more expensive than gas, but does give you "proper" 230Vac on board for all appliances not just cooking -- if that's what you want, lots of people don't...

Edited November 12, 2021 by IanD

[Awayonmyboat]

I've no knowledge of Colecraft and whether they are taking the p*ss but having spent all my working life in shipbuilding and boat building I do know most people do not understand the real cost of a "simple change" to a standard production product to a business. As a first rule of thumb we used to use the cost of the equipment being only 30% of the change. The rest of the costs are the ones the customer often does not appreciate. There is almost always extra labour compared to the standard solution, and it is very inefficient labour because it is doing something different from normal and having to plan, stop think, ask questions rather than simply doing the same as usual. Then there is the cost of sourcing the new equipment and maybe new sub-contractors, time on the phone/ computer getting quotes, working out solutions, maybe putting new safety practices and risk assessments in place. On top of that there is the risk cost of the new solution not working properly, needing extra installation work, extra warranty work, change to documents etc.. Finally there has to be some extra profit to make the change worthwhile to the business - to make the change worth doing it has to bring more profit than the standard low risk and proven solution.

 

I'm not defending Colecraft estimate, but just pointing out there is a lot more cost behind it than simply the equipment cost. Only the buyer can decide if it is worth £20,000 to them.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Awayonmyboat said:

I'm not defending Colecraft estimate, but just pointing out there is a lot more cost behind it than simply the equipment cost. Only the buyer can decide if it is worth £20,000 to them.

 

All very relevant, and true.

Maybe the OP would be better off going to an electric boat builder if that is what he wants.

They already have the products available, with the experience and knowledge of building an 'electric boat'.

 

From 2025 no boat can be built with an ICE unless it is capable of being converted to zero propulsion.

From 2035 no boat can be built unless it has zero propulsion.

 

Buying a boat now with a big lump of engine will result in large depreciation over the next few years. Plan ahead

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Awayonmyboat said:

I've no knowledge of Colecraft and whether they are taking the p*ss but having spent all my working life in shipbuilding and boat building I do know most people do not understand the real cost of a "simple change" to a standard production product to a business. As a first rule of thumb we used to use the cost of the equipment being only 30% of the change. The rest of the costs are the ones the customer often does not appreciate. There is almost always extra labour compared to the standard solution, and it is very inefficient labour because it is doing something different from normal and having to plan, stop think, ask questions rather than simply doing the same as usual. Then there is the cost of sourcing the new equipment and maybe new sub-contractors, time on the phone/ computer getting quotes, working out solutions, maybe putting new safety practices and risk assessments in place. On top of that there is the risk cost of the new solution not working properly, needing extra installation work, extra warranty work, change to documents etc.. Finally there has to be some extra profit to make the change worthwhile to the business - to make the change worth doing it has to bring more profit than the standard low risk and proven solution.

 

I'm not defending Colecraft estimate, but just pointing out there is a lot more cost behind it than simply the equipment cost. Only the buyer can decide if it is worth £20,000 to them.

 

 

 

I understand all that, but most of it doesn't apply to the changes under discussion. The changes to the engine are all done by Beta before supplying it (and the cost of this was surprisingly low when I asked), any boat will have an inverter/charger anyway so putting in a bigger one is trivial, and dropping in a single LiFePO4 battery back with integrated BMS is no more difficult than installing a lead-acid battery. No new safety procedures or risk assessments, the only paperwork is changing the equipment orders.

 

The costs for all this with everything bought *at retail prices* (and installation costs added) is under half what Colecraft are charging; they will pay less and put their own markup on top, but this in no way justifies charging £20k -- my suspicion is that either this is "what the market will pay" (i.e. targeted at people with more money than sense), or they're using ridiculously expensive LiFePO4 battery packs when there are plenty of high-quality properly-supported cheaper ones available nowadays -- or the quote is a couple of years or more out of date, LiFePO4 prices have been dropping rapidly.

 

On top of this, "gas-free" or "electric-heavy" solutions like this are available from almost all boatbuilders nowadays as an off-the-shelf option, it's not as if they're having to do everything from scratch for one customer.

Edited November 12, 2021 by IanD

[BEngo]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

my suspicion is that either this is "what the market will pay" (i.e. targeted at people with more money than sense), or they're using ridiculously expensive LiFePO4 battery packs

I think it more likely that they don't want the job and have priced it accordingly.  If pushed into it by somebody with more money than brains at least they have a good margin for error and if it goes unexpectedly well they will have been paid for managing the client's reality, the learning curve,   new documentation etc.

Over the years I have bid several jobs where the aim was to come second!

N

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, BEngo said:

I think it more likely that they don't want the job and have priced it accordingly.  If pushed into it by somebody with more money than brains at least they have a good margin for error and if it goes unexpectedly well they will have been paid for managing the client's reality, the learning curve,   new documentation etc.

Over the years I have bid several jobs where the aim was to come second!

N

Also very possible. The solution is of course to go out and get some quotes from suppliers who might actually want the business, and see how much cheaper they are -- just because Colecraft quoted £20000 doesn't mean that this is what such an installation should (and does) cost, even if it keeps the "why don't you run everything off one 12V battery, you don't need any modern electrical kit on a boat" brigade happy 😉

 

(a valid view which they are of course perfectly entitled to hold for themselves, but shouldn't assume that everyone wants to live the same way they do...)

[ditchcrawler]

38 minutes ago, BEngo said:

 Over the years I have bid several jobs where the aim was to come second!

 

When I was an apprentice my boss did that, we got the job!

[Mike1951]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Colecraft are taking the p*ss with that figure. I looked at this in depth about a year ago and even allowing for the engine mods (Beta 43 with 2 big 24V alternators and external controller) and bigger inverter and lithium batteries the cost was under £10k, exact figure depends on size of battery bank.

 

Still *way* more expensive than gas, but does give you "proper" 230Vac on board for all appliances not just cooking -- if that's what you want, lots of people don't...

Yes I think you are right. Anything non-standard seems to be at excessive prices. 

[Tacet]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From 2025 no boat can be built with an ICE unless it is capable of being converted to zero propulsion.

From 2035 no boat can be built unless it has zero propulsion.

A couple of things wrong here, I feel

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A couple of things wrong here, I feel

 

An omission of "emission" is my impression ...

[IanD]

Of course *any* boat is capable of being converted, just whip out the old diesel and drop in an electric motor and some batteries, so the 2025 date is meaningless -- people can carry on building diesel boats until 2035 if they want to, and carry on using them after that date.

 

2035 is when the diesel is going to hit the fan for new boats...

[MtB]

On 10/11/2021 at 20:00, Slim said:

Specify smaller bottles.  

 

I was about to suggest this too. 

 

For the limited use the OP describes, 3.9kg propane bottles will be fine and easy to manhandle. 

 

Edit to get the size right! 

Edited November 12, 2021 by MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A couple of things wrong here, I feel

 

 

Well it would solve a lot of the worlds problems ............................

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I was about to suggest this too. 

 

For the limited use the OP describes, 3.9kg propane bottles will be fine and easy to manhandle. 

 

Edit to get the size right! 

 

Indeed, cooking uses surprisingly little gas. When I was looking at exactly this solution, it turns out that one of those 3.9kg bottles will keep a mahoosive 6kW wok ring going continuously for about 9 hours. Normal cooking uses a fraction of this...

[MtB]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Indeed, cooking uses surprisingly little gas. When I was looking at exactly this solution, it turns out that one of those 3.9kg bottles will keep a mahoosive 6kW wok ring going continuously for about 9 hours. Normal cooking uses a fraction of this...

 

Quite. Even with a Morco for hot water I'd say the 3.9 bottles used to last me two or three weeks when I lived aboard, and I cooked for myself a lot. I then switched to using 6kg bottles which lasted about a month each.

[Woodwych]

On 10/11/2021 at 09:47, Mike1951 said:

Been looking at the possibility of dispensing with gas - electric oven and induction hob. We will only be living aboard weekends for the next few years as we are still working and we have shore power at the marina, so only one or 2 nights crusing away from the marina. We have a 3KW inverter/charger and 4 x 150AH lead-carbon deep cycle batteries. Any experience/thoughts?

Overall I think you are pushing your luck. We have a very similar setup on Yardarm. A Beta 38, 3KW Victron and a 510AH AGM battery bank. We too only do short trips and don't do roast dinners! We have a Siemens induction hob which has a useful power control setting where you can alter the maximum power draw ( we have this set to 1500W) and this works well. Boiling a kettle for a cup of tea uses 2% of the 510AH. Initially we experimented with an electric oven but found the power consumption too high- using 20% for a 30 minute ready meal. Our solution was to fit a diesel Wallas oven which is superb but expensive. We also upgraded the standard Beta alternator to a Bosch 200AH one with a Mastervolt controller- this is fantastic and has halved the battery recharge time - and associated pollution and noise.

[Mike1951]

2 minutes ago, Woodwych said:

Overall I think you are pushing your luck. We have a very similar setup on Yardarm. A Beta 38, 3KW Victron and a 510AH AGM battery bank. We too only do short trips and don't do roast dinners! We have a Siemens induction hob which has a useful power control setting where you can alter the maximum power draw ( we have this set to 1500W) and this works well. Boiling a kettle for a cup of tea uses 2% of the 510AH. Initially we experimented with an electric oven but found the power consumption too high- using 20% for a 30 minute ready meal. Our solution was to fit a diesel Wallas oven which is superb but expensive. We also upgraded the standard Beta alternator to a Bosch 200AH one with a Mastervolt controller- this is fantastic and has halved the battery recharge time - and associated pollution and noise.

Thanks Woodwych. Very useful experience. 

[Up-Side-Down]

On 10/11/2021 at 13:10, nicknorman said:

I think of all the ways to kill or injure yourself on a boat, gas is not in the top 100. We had a new boat built in 2010. We turned the gas on. Hmmmm, here we are 11 years later and the gas is still on. Never turned it off (except to change a cylinder). Nothing blown up yet! The BSS and gas installation standards for boats is extremely high so I can’t see why the system would suddenly spring a dangerous leak. We change a gas bottle about once a year - it would probably be every 4 months if we were permanently live aboard. 13kg cylinders are quite heavy but you can always ask a Marina person to install it, surely?

 

I just think you are focussing to much on some (to be honest, imagined) issues at the expense of making the boat a whole lot harder to live with

It could just be that the OP is anxious to dispense with hydrocarbons altogether on his boat as he's spotted that there is a climate emergency. This is certainly an area that the IWA SBG, having put together a route map for sustainable propulsion, is now turning its attention to. To that end this thread, and others like it on CWDF, is extremely valuable. As are the informed observations s that IanD and the like make. Please keep it coming!

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

It could just be that the OP is anxious to dispense with hydrocarbons altogether on his boat as he's spotted that there is a climate emergency. This is certainly an area that the IWA SBG, having put together a route map for sustainable propulsion, is now turning its attention to. To that end this thread, and others like it on CWDF, is extremely valuable. As are the informed observations s that IanD and the like make. Please keep it coming!

 

I think the OP mentioned (mid-thread) that his main concern is that gas bottles are heavy to lug about at his advancing age, and also that relatives he lends the boat to might forget to turn the gas off when leaving the boat. 

 

Even so, I agree with you, discussions on how to persuade boats to be ever more fossil-fuel-free are always a Good Thing.

[matty40s]

However , getting boats to be fossil free might be a bigger challenge.

[Up-Side-Down]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think the OP mentioned (mid-thread) that his main concern is that gas bottles are heavy to lug about at his advancing age, and also that relatives he lends the boat to might forget to turn the gas off when leaving the boat. 

 

Even so, I agree with you, discussions on how to persuade boats to be ever more fossil-fuel-free are always a Good Thing.

Possibly not a very subtle way of partially highjacking the thread I would agree! Still, with COP26 winding up just down the road from me I thought it was an opportune moment to bring out this dimension to the topic and give it a wee polish so to speak!!

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

However , getting boats to be fossil free might be a bigger challenge.

It certainly is but having grappled with propulsion in our vision document, we can't very well ignore the domestic side of inland boating. I've a suspicion that this might be an area of GHG emissions greater than from the engines themselves.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

It certainly is but having grappled with propulsion in our vision document, we can't very well ignore the domestic side of inland boating. I've a suspicion that this might be an area of GHG emissions greater than from the engines themselves.

 

I think the domestic GHG emissions from boats will turn out to be far higher than from propulsion, given there are lots of CCers on the cut who only cruise for about one hour a fortnight.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I've a suspicion that this might be an area of GHG emissions greater than from the engines themselves.

 

It's a dead cert.  Solid fuel stoves, LPG cooking and heating, diesel heaters, petrol generators, chainsaws ...

[Up-Side-Down]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think the domestic GHG emissions from boats will turn out to be far higher than from propulsion, given there are lots of CCers on the cut who only cruise for about one hour a fortnight.

....... and run their engines for leccy generation in the meantime??

[MtB]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's a dead cert.  Solid fuel stoves, LPG cooking and heating, diesel heaters, petrol generators, chainsaws ...

 

 

It's quite amusing to think back to that long and bad tempered thread six or seven years ago, when we were arguing vehemently about whether living on a narrowboat was more 'eco-friendly' than living in a house, or less. The answer seems blindingly obvious nowadays that it is so much less.