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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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34 minutes ago, IanD said:

There's a much bigger risk if composting fans keep on arguing that "it doesn't smell really" or "nappies and dog poo are just as bad or worse", as has being going on for many pages, complete with numbers about dog poo size and frequency.

 

The person who was mainly responsible for this asked me privately to "stop my campaign against composting toilets" because some marinas have cottoned on to these arguments, and are now saying that since they banned composting toilets (which unlike CaRT they can easily enforce by not allowing boats with them to moor in the marina), if dog poo is even worse then maybe we should ban dog poo from our bins as well -- which they can presumably do by not allowing boats with dogs to moor either...

 

This is not me panic-mongering or whipping up resentment against composting toilets, it's a request from a composting supporter to please stop arguing about this in public, because it's now raised the dog-poo issue and the consequences could be severe.

 

It should be obvious even to dog-poo haters that marinas doing this is grossly unfair since the same ban doesn't apply to the 1000x more dogs whose owners live in houses; there are a lot of people with dogs on the canals (far more than with babies), and marinas either banning them from marinas or even saying that they can't use their bins for the bags would have a huge detrimental effect on the canal community. Unfortunately marinas could probably do this legally, fair or not, because they get to choose who moors there.

 

I agreed to stop posting if the pro-composters did the same, and it seems to have got quieter, but hasn't stopped. For the good of the canal community, could I suggest that other people do the same?

 

If any pro-composters want to still continue putting their arguments forward (which they can of course do, free speech and all that...) they can start and own a thread of their own; that way if the raging poo fire ignites again and other boaters (e.g. dog owners) suffer the consequences, it will be clear where the blame lies. I would hope they'd resist the temptation to do this, no matter how much they want to personally, to avoid the possible negative impact on the boating community.

 

I'm going to ask the moderators to close the thread I started to any further comments (and copy this post to it), maybe Alan could do the same with this thread?

 

For once I agree fully with Ian.

This argument could end with many waste management companies refusing to take any poo in their commercial bins and that would be very very bad for dog owners. Please can we stop discussing this topic.

I have also asked the mods to close this thread and the others and not got a particularly helpful answer!

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3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

For once I agree fully with Ian.

 

I have also asked the mods to close this thread and the others and not got a particularly helpful answer!

 

 

You agree with censorship and the removal of free speech ?

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You agree with censorship and the removal of free speech ?

As per my comment on the other thread.

Lets not fight to have the last comment.

If you continue to push, the inevitable conclusion to me will not be good for dog owners. I dont have a dog.

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8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

As per my comment on the other thread.

Lets not fight to have the last comment.

If you continue to push, the inevitable conclusion to me will not be good for dog owners. I dont have a dog.

I don’t think this thread should be closed just because it’s not going in your favour...if we start doing that on every topic in the forum we will be back to the dark days of a few years ago. The problem won’t suddenly be solved by silence. 

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5 minutes ago, frangar said:

I don’t think this thread should be closed just because it’s not going in your favour...if we start doing that on every topic in the forum we will be back to the dark days of a few years ago. The problem won’t suddenly be solved by silence. 

But he claims that it's not to do with him and his toilet any more, it's all for the greater good of the majority of boaters.

 

Which is strange, because entire his toilet argument is all about what's best for him and against what most boaters (and CaRT) want.

 

It's always possible that he's had a revelation and suddenly become altruistic, this does happen to people sometimes.

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You might close this thread, but I imagine the discussion will continue elsewhere, and I presume that the vloggers who have promoted 'compost' toilets in the past will continue to be vocal. I can't see stopping this thread having much impact on the wider discussion.

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OK guys. My last post on the subject. I do not want to argue about this topic. Both sides have put their views.

I have a professional interest in waste recycling. I work for a company that works closely to waste management companies. I know how they make their money. I have had a conversation over the last few days that tells me that at least one waste management company is not wanting dog poo in their bins and has told a marina not far from here to stop. All councils in this country accept this waste in domestic bins in this way. However being 'commercial', they have the power to say no.

The discussion on the CWDF on the topic has raised the issue. It has made others aware of dog poo in bins. That has resulted in the conversation I referred to earlier. I know waste management companies. I strongly suggest we stop this discussion - nothing to do with winning or loosing. I do not have a dog. I do not put poo in bins. However continued discussion will only lead to claim and counter claim that will ultimately lead to severe restrictions on where you can dispose of dog poo.

I asked IanD yesterday if we could let this die down and he agreed that penalty for not doing so could have a wider issue. I have contacted the mods who dont see an issue. AlandeE obviously doesnt care less about wanting to discuss dog poo - yet risks something that I guess many many will be concerned about.

I will not post again as I dont want to see a huge number of people disadvantaged. If they are then blame it on AlandeE, Athy and Magie Patrick who dont see it as an issue. It may already be too late.

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24 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

If they are then blame it on AlandeE, Athy and Magie Patrick 

He doesn't like being called Magie when he's on duty.

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26 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I have contacted the mods who dont see an issue. AlandeE obviously doesnt care less about wanting to discuss dog poo

 

Maybe look back and see who it was that raised the subject and repeatedly went on and on and on about the fact that there were 7 million dogs, each producing 350g per day of poop and implied that much of it was going into C&RT bins.

The same person did graciously suggest that despite nappies being a similar problem it was unlikely, that due to the small number of babies on the waterways, that it impacted on C&RTs levels of 'offensive waste'.

 

If dogs are banned at marinas there is only one person that 'rocked the boat'.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Damien at CRT?

 

He just loosened the 'lines' allowing it to start rocking, it didn't take long before a Zealot came on board and the rocking started to reach the critical downflooding angle.

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I appears that the feelings of many on this forum have spilled over onto general social media with people who are having new boats built posting that they didn't realise what composting meant and they will be sending their toilets back and having cassettes fitted instead.

 

There is a ground swell of support to stop the poop-bag-bin practice.

 

It appears that C&RT will get a lot of support for their decision, the problem now is what to do in the short term.

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On 05/03/2021 at 01:00, Foggy66 said:

Well maybe a positive outcome from this will be people who previously bagged and binned will start composting which is more in the spirit of owning a waterless toilet. 
 

 

 

It would be great if that happened, but keeping a 'rolling 12 months' of poop under the bed (so it takes several buckets) on a NB is not easy.

If they have access to their own 'land' then, as other boaters have shown, it can work well.

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Could evidence of C19 in sewage be another reason to avoid 'poop-bag-bin'  ?

 

 

Covid 19 Found in sewage systems of 80% of UK schools tested.

 

 

Covid was present in the sewage of 80% of 16 primary and secondary schools in England during December, and researchers detected the virus about a week before community testing, according to Mariachiara Di Cesare, a senior lecturer in public health at Middlesex University who led the study.

“In the earlier weeks, it was around 20% [of schools],” she said. “Starting from the end of November, we saw an increase in the percentage that returned positive. And that was in line with a lag of a week before what was happening in the community.”

 

Di Cesare and other researchers from Term, a collaboration involving universities and the Joint Biosecurity Centre, saw a steady increase to 50% then 80% of schools taking part in the project, at a time when cases nationally seemed to be falling. “We were really worried, but the samples were consistent in the school and in other schools in the area, so we could see the virus was circulating,” she said.

 

 

Di Cesare was keen to emphasise that the study, which took samples every five minutes from each school’s wastepipe for eight hours a day, had been attempting to show that wastewater could be used to discover Covid outbreaks, rather than their scale or how transmission might be occurring.

“This is not data we would expect to be used to close a school,” she said. “One of the problems we are working on is how to communicate the data to public health teams.”

 

Maggie Rae, the president of the Faculty of Public Health, said having an effective early warning system in place was vital for preventing further outbreaks. “Test and trace is not cost effective and it’s not an early warning system,” Rae said. “Testing doesn’t tell us how many people have got the virus, just those who have come forward for a test,” she added.

“Wastewater could give you a very very good sense of unknown infections that you can then track.”

Local authority public health teams could potentially identify an area where Covid may be about to break out, and go door-to-door offering advice, support and testing equipment, she said.

The water supply and sewerage systems have been used for public health ever since John Snow, a London physician, proved in 1854 that cholera was spreading from a well in Soho.

The National Wastewater Epidemiology Surveillance Programme began looking last summer at whether Covid could be reliably detected in sewage, taking samples at 96 treatment plants in England, Wales and Scotland.

 

Andrew Singer, who leads N-WESP, said they were able to detect Covid in the sewer system when at least one in 10,000 people is infected – about 15 people in a city the size of Oxford.

The growth of new Covid variants is also detectable, he said. “You can get an early insight into variants of interest and quickly assess how worried we should be about them.”

The programme is being expanded to more than 200 sites in England, covering 80% of the population. Sewage is routinely monitored in Australia to detect Covid outbreaks, and before the pandemic wastewater analysis was part of polio and norovirus detection in the UK.

“We have the oldest sewer network in the world, practically. When you compare that with Australia’s, which has pipes that are 20 years old, and documentation that shows where they are – to be honest, I’m envious how easy it is.”

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36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Could evidence of C19 in sewage be another reason to avoid 'poop-bag-bin'  ?

 

 

Covid 19 Found in sewage systems of 80% of UK schools tested.

 

 

Covid was present in the sewage of 80% of 16 primary and secondary schools in England during December, and researchers detected the virus about a week before community testing, according to Mariachiara Di Cesare, a senior lecturer in public health at Middlesex University who led the study.

“In the earlier weeks, it was around 20% [of schools],” she said. “Starting from the end of November, we saw an increase in the percentage that returned positive. And that was in line with a lag of a week before what was happening in the community.”

 

Di Cesare and other researchers from Term, a collaboration involving universities and the Joint Biosecurity Centre, saw a steady increase to 50% then 80% of schools taking part in the project, at a time when cases nationally seemed to be falling. “We were really worried, but the samples were consistent in the school and in other schools in the area, so we could see the virus was circulating,” she said.

 

 

Di Cesare was keen to emphasise that the study, which took samples every five minutes from each school’s wastepipe for eight hours a day, had been attempting to show that wastewater could be used to discover Covid outbreaks, rather than their scale or how transmission might be occurring.

“This is not data we would expect to be used to close a school,” she said. “One of the problems we are working on is how to communicate the data to public health teams.”

 

Maggie Rae, the president of the Faculty of Public Health, said having an effective early warning system in place was vital for preventing further outbreaks. “Test and trace is not cost effective and it’s not an early warning system,” Rae said. “Testing doesn’t tell us how many people have got the virus, just those who have come forward for a test,” she added.

“Wastewater could give you a very very good sense of unknown infections that you can then track.”

Local authority public health teams could potentially identify an area where Covid may be about to break out, and go door-to-door offering advice, support and testing equipment, she said.

The water supply and sewerage systems have been used for public health ever since John Snow, a London physician, proved in 1854 that cholera was spreading from a well in Soho.

The National Wastewater Epidemiology Surveillance Programme began looking last summer at whether Covid could be reliably detected in sewage, taking samples at 96 treatment plants in England, Wales and Scotland.

 

Andrew Singer, who leads N-WESP, said they were able to detect Covid in the sewer system when at least one in 10,000 people is infected – about 15 people in a city the size of Oxford.

The growth of new Covid variants is also detectable, he said. “You can get an early insight into variants of interest and quickly assess how worried we should be about them.”

The programme is being expanded to more than 200 sites in England, covering 80% of the population. Sewage is routinely monitored in Australia to detect Covid outbreaks, and before the pandemic wastewater analysis was part of polio and norovirus detection in the UK.

“We have the oldest sewer network in the world, practically. When you compare that with Australia’s, which has pipes that are 20 years old, and documentation that shows where they are – to be honest, I’m envious how easy it is.”

 

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

There appears to be ever increasing risk & evidence that it should be banned.

 

I think the guidance on domestic waste that has been in contact with an infected person is to bag it and keep it for three days before disposing in the normal way.  Sampling of sewage systems is presumably picking up traces in freshly produced "material", as I expect it moves fairly quickly from producer to treatment plant. I wonder how long the virus can survive in that fairly aggressive environment, or indeed in a cassette, or dry toilet.

 

Thinking of some of the small, smelly and poorly ventilated enclosures around elsan points that I have used to empty my cassette, this might be a bigger risk than disposal of dry solids. I hadn't thought of it before, but each time I go to visit one in the future I might be wondering how much of the aerosol created by the previous "pourer" is hanging around for me to breathe in.

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21 minutes ago, alias said:

Sampling of sewage systems is presumably picking up traces in freshly produced "material",

 

And, that is much of the problem, a proportion of the stuff in a 'dry-toilet' will be fresh, for example, Dr Bob has has said his toilet only has a '5-day bucket' so when he empties it (in the composting bin whilst in the marina) there is a range of 'ages' of the poop from 5 days to 5 minutes.

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33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And, that is much of the problem, a proportion of the stuff in a 'dry-toilet' will be fresh, for example, Dr Bob has has said his toilet only has a '5-day bucket' so when he empties it (in the composting bin whilst in the marina) there is a range of 'ages' of the poop from 5 days to 5 minutes.

 

Hence the expression: "I'd give it a minute if I were you." ?

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Covid was present in the sewage of 80% of 16 primary and secondary schools

Either dodgy methodology or dodgy reporting. I think it would be very difficult to say anything was or wasn't found in the sewage from 12.8 schools.

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12 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Either dodgy methodology or dodgy reporting. I think it would be very difficult to say anything was or wasn't found in the sewage from 12.8 schools.

Samples were taken every hour over a time period, a lot more data than just 16 schools being done once.

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3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The Government understands a lot more about things than our media is prepared to report as often that doesn't make good news. Now get Boris to promise what date we can all go to Spain and it doesn't happen, that's real news.

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