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Tim Lewis

CRT Annual Lockage Report

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Possibly a few dodge numbers in there?

 

For example on the T&M.

Trentham 4,228
Etruria (summit)  878

I assume the equipment at Etruria is unreliable, (and if you look at the report was for the previous 2 years as well).

 

 

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35 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Possibly a few dodge numbers in there?

 

For example on the T&M.

Trentham 4,228
Etruria (summit)  878

I assume the equipment at Etruria is unreliable, (and if you look at the report was for the previous 2 years as well).

 

 

Possible, but many boats belting up and down the Gailey-Shardlow-Stone "Shiny triangle" would never dream of going through Stoke and Harecastle, so maybe it's real?

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I would love to know who's built a new lock(s) just South of the Welford Arm on the Leicester line.

One big statistic is Stonebridge Lock on the Lee Navigation. Over 5000 lockings means that enforcement is working forcing boats to move further than just Hackney to Kings Cross. It's only 10 years since I was down that way and for most of the year it was a couple of lockings a week.

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1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

Possible, but many boats belting up and down the Gailey-Shardlow-Stone "Shiny triangle" would never dream of going through Stoke and Harecastle, so maybe it's real?

You have me confused.

Trentham is probably only 5 miles South of Etruria, with little more than the environs of Stoke in between, so why would there be over 4000 lockings at Trentham and well under a 1000 at Etruria?

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58 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

You have me confused.

Trentham is probably only 5 miles South of Etruria, with little more than the environs of Stoke in between, so why would there be over 4000 lockings at Trentham and well under a 1000 at Etruria?

Because Trentham is where urban Stoke starts? Actually, I suspect Barlaston might be a better choice for this. I don't know! 

 

MP.

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On 31/01/2020 at 17:34, alan_fincher said:

You have me confused.

Trentham is probably only 5 miles South of Etruria, with little more than the environs of Stoke in between, so why would there be over 4000 lockings at Trentham and well under a 1000 at Etruria?

I also think this must be a mistake. This used to be our home turf for several years and people don't turn around at Trentham in significant numbers. Stoke is just as busy with people doing the 4 counties and the Caldon.

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On 31/01/2020 at 15:30, alan_fincher said:

Possibly a few dodge numbers in there?

 

For example on the T&M.

Trentham 4,228
Etruria (summit)  878

I assume the equipment at Etruria is unreliable, (and if you look at the report was for the previous 2 years as well).

 

 

Yes, that figure for Etruria must be wrong. It's on the Four Counties Ring! It can't have fewer workings than Keadby.

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47 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Yes, that figure for Etruria must be wrong. It's on the Four Counties Ring! It can't have fewer workings than Keadby.

Looking at the report, and applying the same common sense logic, then there are quite a few figures in there that look very wrong. If the person who produced this report had any knowledge of the canal network then they would have added a note to the suspect figures. Its a very interesting rough guide as to what is going on but I really hope CRT don't use it for making any strategic decisions.

 

In general its is an example of over dependence on dodgy instrumentation and lack of real world understanding. Its sad that real data from Standedge and Harecastle tunnels, and Tuel Lane lock etc etc are not included. These are recorded by CRT staff and should be much more reliable.

 

...............Dave

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But we must be careful - the data is for lockages not boat movements. One of the ways in which the relationship could change is if a lock keeper is routinely deployed at a monitored lock who maximises the boat movements to lockages by sharing or turn taking etc. Overall it would be unwise to use this data to base strategy concerning boat movement (as a measure of demand) other than in the very broadest terms.

 

Looking at the lists it does seem that they have issues regarding equipment reliability but I don't know what can reasonably be expected given the environment.

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From my limited experience that way I have found that arriving at Trentham from which ever direction I am normally alone whereas at Eutoria I normally find boats waiting to both go up and down

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33 minutes ago, dmr said:

Looking at the report, and applying the same common sense logic, then there are quite a few figures in there that look very wrong. If the person who produced this report had any knowledge of the canal network then they would have added a note to the suspect figures. Its a very interesting rough guide as to what is going on but I really hope CRT don't use it for making any strategic decisions.

 

In general its is an example of over dependence on dodgy instrumentation and lack of real world understanding. Its sad that real data from Standedge and Harecastle tunnels, and Tuel Lane lock etc etc are not included. These are recorded by CRT staff and should be much more reliable.

 

...............Dave

Given the number of boat movements on the HNC/Rochdale I doubt that Standedge and Tuel Lane would give any revelations -- there's only about 300 movements a year on both canals. Which is great for those of us who don't like queues... 😉

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36 minutes ago, IanD said:

Given the number of boat movements on the HNC/Rochdale I doubt that Standedge and Tuel Lane would give any revelations -- there's only about 300 movements a year on both canals. Which is great for those of us who don't like queues... 😉

 

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

Given the number of boat movements on the HNC/Rochdale I doubt that Standedge and Tuel Lane would give any revelations -- there's only about 300 movements a year on both canals. Which is great for those of us who don't like queues... 😉

The Rochdale is actually interesting, report shows over 1000 lockings at Lock5 (just above Tuel Lane),  but only 133 at bridge 51 and 310 at Littleborough.

 

Lock 5 will be the Shire Cruisers Hire fleet plus some boats going from the C&H to Hebden (and back). The 133 and 310 figures will reflect through passages so why are they so different? Does anybody really turn back at Rochdale? or does the hire fleet ever get down to Littleborough then turn back? (almost certainly not).

 

After restoration the Rochdale was limited to 800 movements per year but I don't know if this still applies or even matters. 

 

...............Dave

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I suspect there's a number of CCers that go as far as the Rochdale pound but no further - there's often one or two moored at the back of Littleborough Station. Numbers at Lock 5 will also be boosted by the day hire boats from Hebden Bridge which often go as far as (but not through) Tuel Lane, and which will notch up 2 passages per trip.

Edited by David Mack

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Statistics, Lies and damn lies I tell you!!

 

Let's look at the Stratford:  Discounting River lock 56 as it has a raft of trip boat movements from Bancroft Basin, 2241 at Wilmcote top then 2015 at Maidenhead Road - oops we've lost 226!  OK so there was a hire base between the two but that was closed in early June.

 

Onward to the Oxford:

 

3467 at Roundham then 3340 at Dukes - another lost 127?  Onward to Isis 3649?  Pull the other leg, that's 309 missing movements.

 

The figures don't stack up.  Especially at Hillmorton where it was claimed 9,000 movements this year before being trimmed back to 8362.

 

You couldn't make it up - correction - CRT have

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49 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I suspect there's a number of CCers that go as far as the Rochdale pound but no further - there's often one or two moored at the back of Littleborough Station. Numbers at Lock 5 will also be boosted by the day hire boats from Hebden Bridge which often go as far as (but not through) Tuel Lane, and which will notch up 2 passages per trip.

Shire Cruisers and Bronte Boats to a slightly lesser extent, do account for a big part of the Rochdale traffic. I have assumed that the boats at Littleborough are making a slow onward passage. They probably need to be near a train station but having done all the crappy stuff getting out of Manchester why not go on to Todmorden or even Hebden that also have train stations? ....though the lockage report does suggest they have approached from the C&H end and got as close to Manchester as they dare.

 

I suspect that the "leave empty" requirement at the Littleborough lock might somehow be a factor in these figures.

It would be interesting to know how CRT obtain these figures, does a single fill or empty count as a locking? And does a fill-empty cycle count as one or two? or is there a time limit on the fill-empty?. On a "leave empty" wide lock a fill-empty could be anything between 1 and 4 boats.

 

................Dave

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56 minutes ago, dmr said:

Shire Cruisers and Bronte Boats to a slightly lesser extent, do account for a big part of the Rochdale traffic. I have assumed that the boats at Littleborough are making a slow onward passage. They probably need to be near a train station but having done all the crappy stuff getting out of Manchester why not go on to Todmorden or even Hebden that also have train stations? ....though the lockage report does suggest they have approached from the C&H end and got as close to Manchester as they dare.

 

I suspect that the "leave empty" requirement at the Littleborough lock might somehow be a factor in these figures.

It would be interesting to know how CRT obtain these figures, does a single fill or empty count as a locking? And does a fill-empty cycle count as one or two? or is there a time limit on the fill-empty?. On a "leave empty" wide lock a fill-empty could be anything between 1 and 4 boats.

 

................Dave

Most Shire boats out for a week are likely to turn at Littleborough rather then daring to venture into the urban wastelands of Rochdale and beyond, where the maps say "here be yobboes"...

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Most Shire boats out for a week are likely to turn at Littleborough rather then daring to venture into the urban wastelands of Rochdale and beyond, where the maps say "here be yobboes"...

I reckon most get no further than the summit and quite a few not even that far.

We have met a group of experienced hirers who do the Rochdale every year and they get to the summit but spend a whole day there rather than going down into Littleborough. Its a lot of locks just to turn round.....even if there is cheap beer.

As you appear to know the Rochdale....is it possible to turn a full length boat in the Littleborough winding hole (by the bridge?)

 

................Dave

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7 minutes ago, dmr said:

I reckon most get no further than the summit and quite a few not even that far.

We have met a group of experienced hirers who do the Rochdale every year and they get to the summit but spend a whole day there rather than going down into Littleborough. Its a lot of locks just to turn round.....even if there is cheap beer.

As you appear to know the Rochdale....is it possible to turn a full length boat in the Littleborough winding hole (by the bridge?)

 

................Dave

I don't know, I've never done it. Looks big enough, but if it's silted up you might not get round. Maybe somebody who's turned there can help?

 

(and you're right, only enthusiastic lock fanatics like us would get as far as Littleborough -- or do the HNC-Rochdale ring from Sowerby Bridge, 197 locks in 10 days IIRC...)

Edited by IanD

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't know, I've never done it. Looks big enough, but if it's silted up you might not get round. Maybe somebody who's turned there can help?

 

(and you're right, only enthusiastic lock fanatics like us would get as far as Littleborough -- or do the HNC-Rochdale ring from Sowerby Bridge, 208 locks in 10 days IIRC...)

Most of the Rochdale winding holes are too silted to turn a big boat. I would like to know about the Littleborough one because, as you say, if we cant turn there the next one is right in the Rochdale Badlands.

 

We have met a couple of Shire hirers having a miserable time, they were just not prepared for the physical effort required to do the Rochdale locks, and one hated all the "scruffy" boats at Hebden bridge....lets hope they never go to the K&A 😀

 

..................Dave

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14 minutes ago, dmr said:

Most of the Rochdale winding holes are too silted to turn a big boat. I would like to know about the Littleborough one because, as you say, if we cant turn there the next one is right in the Rochdale Badlands.

 

We have met a couple of Shire hirers having a miserable time, they were just not prepared for the physical effort required to do the Rochdale locks, and one hated all the "scruffy" boats at Hebden bridge....lets hope they never go to the K&A 😀

 

..................Dave

I'd say that none of the Rochdale locks from the junction with the Ashton up are anything like as hard work as the Rochdale Nine on a rainy day, so I hope they never got that far -- if by "a couple of Shire hirers" you mean two people on a boat either would be very hard work, I wouldn't want to do the Rochdale with fewer than four unless i had *lots* of time.

 

Every Shire boat we've ever met on both HNC and Rochdale (several trips now) was having a great time, but then they all knew what to expect -- which was of course precisely why they (and we) were there. I think that HNC/Rochdale ring was probably the most enjoyable trip we've ever done, and we've seen most of the system on holidays in the last forty years or so, parts of it several times.

 

Of course if it was as packed with boats as some of the more popular canals it wouldn't be half as enjoyable, so let's hope it stays a secret only known to the privileged few -- but still enough of us to keep it open 😉

Edited by IanD

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13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

Of course if it was as packed with boats as some of the more popular canals it wouldn't be half as enjoyable, so let's hope it stays a secret only known to the privileged few -- but still enough of us to keep it open 😉

We're venturing up that way for the first time this summer. Looking forward to it.

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7 minutes ago, Proper Charlie said:

We're venturing up that way for the first time this summer. Looking forward to it.

Can suggest some good stopping places if you need any advice -- what are your plans, just a nice slow bimble across the area or a particular schedule?

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

It would be interesting to know how CRT obtain these figures, does a single fill or empty count as a locking? And does a fill-empty cycle count as one or two? or is there a time limit on the fill-empty?. On a "leave empty" wide lock a fill-empty could be anything between 1 and 4 boats.

And on a relatively lightly used canal like the Rochdale, some locks fill and empty (at least partially) on their own, depending on leakage through the gates, water flowing down from lengths upstream etc, so you could easily get some phantom lockages recorded when nothing is actually happening. The likelihood of this occurring may be dependent on how much water level difference counts as a 'lockage'. Is it only from (nearly) full to (9nearly) empty or vice versa, or will a smaller change in level near the mid point also get counted?

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