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monkeyhanger

Goodbye Red Diesel?

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14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I use kero for the bubble stove and whispergen, I have two tanks and neither is for propulsion! still it means I can buy in bulk to reduce the price

 

I use red for my diesel drip stove, which has a separate tank. At present fill it from the propulsion tank via an inbuilt transfer pump, but in future I will buy either 20 or 205 litres of red at a time and use that, as it is around £1.28 - 1.42 per litre, depending on quantity.

 

https://www.ryeoil.co.uk/shop/red-diesel-20-litre/

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I travel to empty my Porta Potty casette and all my business is in that so I should be able to get the business discount. :closedeyes:

  • Haha 1

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8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I use red for my diesel drip stove, which has a separate tank. At present fill it from the propulsion tank via an inbuilt transfer pump, but in future I will buy either 20 or 205 litres of red at a time and use that, as it is around £1.28 - 1.42 per litre, depending on quantity.

 

https://www.ryeoil.co.uk/shop/red-diesel-20-litre/

You might as well go to Asda and buy white road diesel at those prices CH. Last week red was 81p at my local tractor shop.

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6 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

You might as well go to Asda and buy white road diesel at those prices CH. Last week red was 81p at my local tractor shop.

 

Yes, when I was working I often ordered red diesel to fill the bulk tanks on project completion. Used to pay around £0.45 a litre in 2013 for 10,000 litres plus.

 

Problem these days will be the potentisl for fuel degradation or diesel bug, if you can't use the barrel quickly enough.

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30 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, when I was working I often ordered red diesel to fill the bulk tanks on project completion. Used to pay around £0.45 a litre in 2013 for 10,000 litres plus.

 

Problem these days will be the potentisl for fuel degradation or diesel bug, if you can't use the barrel quickly enough.

Yep - always go somewhere with a decent turnover. Asda does at least fit that bill! :)

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Yep - always go somewhere with a decent turnover. Asda does at least fit that bill! :)

 

 

 

I was thinking more of how long a 205 litre drums might last me for winter leisure use, and that it might go off before it was empty.

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2 hours ago, Lady C said:

  I wasn't convinced that canalside diesel selling will be viable for some current operators. 

 

The hire boat yards will still need to have diesel canalside, so will presumably continue to sell it to passing boaters.

Whether other boatyards and the fuel boats continue to do so will depend on how willing boaters are to pay the extra cost to avoid the inconvenience of carting jerry cans in their car from the petrol station.

I typically fill with a couple if hundred litres at a time. That's a lot of jerry cans with the attendant risk of spillage in the canal or in the car.

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50 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The hire boat yards will still need to have diesel canalside, so will presumably continue to sell it to passing boaters.

Whether other boatyards and the fuel boats continue to do so will depend on how willing boaters are to pay the extra cost to avoid the inconvenience of carting jerry cans in their car from the petrol station.

I typically fill with a couple if hundred litres at a time. That's a lot of jerry cans with the attendant risk of spillage in the canal or in the car.

I dont think will find that hire boats will be able to run on red, but trip boats will

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5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I dont think will find that hire boats will be able to run on red, but trip boats will

I guess it depends if Hire boats are commercial or not.

 

They have a commercial BSSC

They have commercial insurance

They have a commercial licence

 

What would make them 'non-commercial' ?

 

 

Commercial use 
 
3.6 No changes are planned to the current position that commercial craft are able to use red diesel for propulsion and on-board non-propulsion use.   

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57 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The hire boat yards will still need to have diesel canalside, so will presumably continue to sell it to passing boaters.

Whether other boatyards and the fuel boats continue to do so will depend on how willing boaters are to pay the extra cost to avoid the inconvenience of carting jerry cans in their car from the petrol station.

I typically fill with a couple if hundred litres at a time. That's a lot of jerry cans with the attendant risk of spillage in the canal or in the car.

Might be a lot of journeys too. At least some fuel stations now limit how much you can purchase to carry in containers.  Not sure if there is a legal limit.

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26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess it depends if Hire boats are commercial or not.

 

They have a commercial BSSC

They have commercial insurance

They have a commercial licence

 

What would make them 'non-commercial' ?

 

 

Commercial use 
 
3.6 No changes are planned to the current position that commercial craft are able to use red diesel for propulsion and on-board non-propulsion use.   

Well I think you will find they use 40/60 at the moment

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11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Well I think you will find they use 40/60 at the moment

from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying which is the case at the moment

 

4.4 What if I operate a boat club or hire, lease or lend boats to third parties?

Boat clubs and hire companies, such as those who offer boating holidays, may ‘self-declare’ on behalf of the person hiring/using the boat, if they can’t reasonably be expected to estimate the proportion of fuel which may be used for propulsion during the period of hire. We accept that the club/company/owner of the vessel may be better placed to know this and make an accurate declaration on their behalf.

The owner may simplify the system of declarations for each boat and period of hire, in the same manner as described at paragraph 4.2, provided there’s a clear audit trail between the hire contract and the fuel provided to the customer during the period of hire.

The owner may account for the duty due on behalf of the customer/club member or charge them duty at each fuel supply transaction, depending on the circumstances of the hire, for example, many holiday vessels are hired for a one-off payment which includes the cost of fuel to be used during the hire period, so duty should be factored into that price.

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Hire boats are not "commercial" because they are used for pleasure boating so must pay the propulsion rate.

 

............Dave

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54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess it depends if Hire boats are commercial or not.

 

They have a commercial BSSC

They have commercial insurance

They have a commercial licence

 

What would make them 'non-commercial' ?

 

 

Commercial use 
 
3.6 No changes are planned to the current position that commercial craft are able to use red diesel for propulsion and on-board non-propulsion use.   

 

At the moment self-drive hire boats are regarded as non-commercial, and so are supposed to pay duty on the propulsion part of the fuel used. So when the proposed changes are introduced, they will use the same fuel as private leisure boat owners.

I think skippered trip boats are commercial, so can continue to use red. 

Boatyards with self-steer and skippered boats will presumably need to duplicate tanks and pumps.

 

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I brought and kept the barge in Belgium and they still had red diesel until 2007. and the Dutch cruisers used to fill up to the brim on the way home as in every other country red was banned for propulsion but they didn’t worry if you had a receipt from Belgium. After white was enforced red is allowed for heating, generator, passenger and commercial boats. Diesel stoves are very common so it is necessary to have 2 separate tanks and the custom officers in France would check to see if it was possible for fuel in the red tank to be used in the engine. Big fines if it was found. For a little while all boats over 20m in France could use a fuel called gnr gas oil non routier which was priced a little bit approved red gas oil. This  had a higher percentage of bio fuel and a useful life of 6 months max, but after a couple of years they changed the rules.

A lot of the fuel companies only did red or heating oil so getting a tanker to deliver white could be difficult and even buying 1000 liters was more expensive than supermarkets so many people have a stock of 20litre  drums and a good sack barrow.

i think it will be very difficult for the fuel boats to be competitive when road fuel is enforced which will be a great shame as the sale of fuel must be an important part of their income

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50 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The hire boat yards will still need to have diesel canalside, so will presumably continue to sell it to passing boaters.

Whether other boatyards and the fuel boats continue to do so will depend on how willing boaters are to pay the extra cost to avoid the inconvenience of carting jerry cans in their car from the petrol station.

I typically fill with a couple if hundred litres at a time. That's a lot of jerry cans with the attendant risk of spillage in the canal or in the car.

Most of our fuel sales customers would have by choice 30-40 litres into their boat as I think most have no idea how big the tank is, how much is in it or how far they can travel. Most wouldn't be worried about spilling a bit in to the cut if it saves them a few quid. To be fair, this was a concern raised when the last sytem was introduced, and we supply plenty of fuel in cans to liveaboards over the winter already and their hasn't been in increase in pollution incidents as far as I'm aware. People soon work out having a bottle of washing up liquid to hand hides the problem anyway......

 

Some hire bases have already given up retail, and I can think of a few more who are considering stopping (us included) in his area because it's not worth the grief we get. We also sell quite a bit of diesel to local farmers and other legitimate users, and the income from that will be missed in the winter.

 

According to the BMF, retailers are likely to have to replace their tank/pipework and pump as it not possible to guarantee the removal all traces of red dye from the system. As my existing tank is underground that's totally cost prohibitive, and no way am I putting an above ground tank of white diesel in at our location because of the risk of theft and (worse) the ensuing pollution. If we are able to use our existing system (once flushed) to refuel our own boats all well and good, if not I'll put the smallest possible tank and pump in just to keep our own  fleet supplied to mitigate the cost and risk - that may well be a road tow bowser so I can go to ASDA or wherever and keep it well out of the way when not in use. If too many take the same view then refuelling of hireboats on longer trips or continuous cruisers without access to road transport is going to become difficult.

 

I am also concerned about the increased vulnerability of boats to theft once they have a much more valuable/useful fuel in them.

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34 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

i think it will be very difficult for the fuel boats to be competitive when road fuel is enforced which will be a great shame as the sale of fuel must be an important part of their income

Yes, and as gas free boats become more common and we're put under more pressure not to use solid fuel it's hard to see a future for them.

 

I learnt today that a government paper says all boats built after 2025 should be capable of zero emissions (not sure whether that's from the outset or capable of future conversion though) and I sat in a meeting a few months back where it was made very clear that the navigation authorities had no funding and no therefore intention of providing recharging points which given the rural nature of most navigations is likely to be very costly.

 

There's a new tier of solid fuel stove emissions reg.s coming in in 2022 and I think only one of the currently manufactured stoves meets it (buy a new squirrel while you can folks..)

 

Gas cookers can't be fitted to new homes from 2025, so expect cookers (and bottled gas) to get more expensive and ultimately it will be impossible to get anything better than caravan quality products which aren't really up to the sort of use they get in liveaboard or hire boats.

 

I don't see anyone effectively campaigning for boaters from any sector, probably just because we such a small interest group, so I reckon we should just forget boating, and fill the cut in to make more room for wellbeing.....and we can all go jump on aeroplanes for our holidays.

 

Rant over :)

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25 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Yes, and as gas free boats become more common and we're put under more pressure not to use solid fuel it's hard to see a future for them.

 

I learnt today that a government paper says all boats built after 2025 should be capable of zero emissions (not sure whether that's from the outset or capable of future conversion though) and I sat in a meeting a few months back where it was made very clear that the navigation authorities had no funding and no therefore intention of providing recharging points which given the rural nature of most navigations is likely to be very costly.

 

There's a new tier of solid fuel stove emissions reg.s coming in in 2022 and I think only one of the currently manufactured stoves meets it (buy a new squirrel while you can folks..)

 

Gas cookers can't be fitted to new homes from 2025, so expect cookers (and bottled gas) to get more expensive and ultimately it will be impossible to get anything better than caravan quality products which aren't really up to the sort of use they get in liveaboard or hire boats.

 

I don't see anyone effectively campaigning for boaters from any sector, probably just because we such a small interest group, so I reckon we should just forget boating, and fill the cut in to make more room for wellbeing.....and we can all go jump on aeroplanes for our holidays.

 

Rant over :)

 

All boats are already capable of zero emissions, (as long as you don't use the engine or heating system). ?

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25 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I don't see anyone effectively campaigning for boaters from any sector, probably just because we such a small interest group,

Excellent whole post, but I suspect you might be mistaken about the quoted bit.

 

This will affect yachts too, not just inland boats, and there are a lot of people who know people hang around the Solent.  And there are still quite a few senior civil servants flying a defaced blue ensign.

 

I can't say if there are enough of them, but some voices are more powerful than others.

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Boaters and Steam Railways are an easy fix/political win. We produce a lot of visible smoke but are not a big part of the economy (or even a big producer of pollution). Tackling air travel is more economically and politically difficult so best avoided.

 

...............Dave

 

  • Greenie 3

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12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Excellent whole post, but I suspect you might be mistaken about the quoted bit.

 

This will affect yachts too, not just inland boats, and there are a lot of people who know people hang around the Solent.  And there are still quite a few senior civil servants flying a defaced blue ensign.

 

I can't say if there are enough of them, but some voices are more powerful than others.

The RYA have donned battle gear and letters have been written. While it might not seem relevant to narrowboats anything they RYA achieve will have a knock on effect. 

 

One example

Written Submission to:

 

HMRC

 

Implementation of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) judgment on diesel fuel used in private pleasure craft.

 

September 2019

 

[Insert great long letter here] 

 

Conclusion

RYA Scotland is deeply concerned over the implications of the implementation of the CJEU judgement on individual boat owners, the marine trade, yacht charter businesses and Scotland’s marine tourism economy and believe the longest possible term for transition is essential.

 

The totality of the negative impact reaches well beyond the financial implications for individuals or business.  We foresee a reduction in the availability of charter boats in Scotland, a reduction in the shore spend from marine tourism and consequential negative impacts on employment in remote coastal areas of Scotland.  Further, such reduced availability has an impact on the opportunities for new participation and will affect club membership as owners reach the tipping point in affordability of boat ownership.

 

We believe a very long implementation timeframe and significant support will be necessary for marine suppliers to adopt the provision of white diesel and for innovative solutions to be explored.  Future support must include direct financial support to ensure the comprehensive supply of fuel for the leisure market is sustained.

 

We are concerned that HMRC has not offered any consideration of procedural or technological solutions that may make implementation less of a burden on the individual leisure vessel owner or the marine trade and time must be made available to explore such options with the various stakeholders to avoid burdensome processes and costs.

 

In light of the current discussions around the UKs departure from the EU, RYA Scotland expects that the Government would not implement the EU Court judgement if we leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement.

 

 

James Allan - Chief Executive Officer

 

September 2019

 

 

  • Greenie 1

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1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

The RYA have donned battle gear and letters have been written. While it might not seem relevant to narrowboats anything they RYA achieve will have a knock on effect. 

The RYA have always been very active in supporting boaters - they were on the panel reviewing Red Diesel some years ago and battled all the way.

They have even managed to get the Belgium Government to back-peddle on taking UK boaters (in Belgium waters) with red diesel in their tanks to the EU courts.

 

I've said it before but the inland boating industry and inland boaters themselves could do a lot worse that affiliate with the RYA instead of having a number of 'specific interest'  groups all looking at their local issues instead of a co-ordinated approach.

 

IWA

RBOA

NABO

NBTA

etc

 

  • Greenie 2

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1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

The RYA have donned battle gear and letters have been written. While it might not seem relevant to narrowboats anything they RYA achieve will have a knock on effect. 

 

One example

Written Submission to:

 

HMRC

 

Implementation of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) judgment on diesel fuel used in private pleasure craft.

 

September 2019

 

[Insert great long letter here] 

 

Conclusion

RYA Scotland is deeply concerned over the implications of the implementation of the CJEU judgement on individual boat owners, the marine trade, yacht charter businesses and Scotland’s marine tourism economy and believe the longest possible term for transition is essential.

 

The totality of the negative impact reaches well beyond the financial implications for individuals or business.  We foresee a reduction in the availability of charter boats in Scotland, a reduction in the shore spend from marine tourism and consequential negative impacts on employment in remote coastal areas of Scotland.  Further, such reduced availability has an impact on the opportunities for new participation and will affect club membership as owners reach the tipping point in affordability of boat ownership.

 

We believe a very long implementation timeframe and significant support will be necessary for marine suppliers to adopt the provision of white diesel and for innovative solutions to be explored.  Future support must include direct financial support to ensure the comprehensive supply of fuel for the leisure market is sustained.

 

We are concerned that HMRC has not offered any consideration of procedural or technological solutions that may make implementation less of a burden on the individual leisure vessel owner or the marine trade and time must be made available to explore such options with the various stakeholders to avoid burdensome processes and costs.

 

In light of the current discussions around the UKs departure from the EU, RYA Scotland expects that the Government would not implement the EU Court judgement if we leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement.

 

 

James Allan - Chief Executive Officer

 

September 2019

 

 

IWA Response:

 

https://www.waterways.org.uk/news_campaigns/campaigns/consultation_responses/pdfs/hmrc_red_diesel_consultation_september_2019

 

Tim

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24 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

 

Interesting point the IWA make about gennies being still allowed to run on red diesel.

 

The obvious solution is everyone install hybrid systems. Waste cheap red diesel charging batteries to run an electric motor, rather than run expensive yet efficient white to drive the boat directly, and stuff the environmental damage.

 

 

Sorted. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Interesting point the IWA make about gennies being still allowed to run on red diesel.

 

The obvious solution is everyone install hybrid systems. Waste cheap red diesel charging batteries to run an electric motor, rather than run expensive yet efficient white to drive the boat directly, and stuff the environmental damage.

 

 

Sorted. 

 

 

?

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