My toaster doesn’t like my generator

[jenevers]

I have a 6 K Mastervolt Genny, which powers my 80A battery charger, when running. But my toaster elements don’t glow as red as they do when I switch the charger off. How come? I’m getting 234v from the inverter output. I know some washing imachines don’t like some generators but surely a toaster shouldn’t be affected.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, jenevers said:

I have a 6 K Mastervolt Genny, which powers my 80A battery charger, when running. But my toaster elements don’t glow as red as they do when I switch the charger off. How come? I’m getting 234v from the inverter output. I know some washing imachines don’t like some generators but surely a toaster shouldn’t be affected.

Voltage drop down the mains lead?

 

80A at 12V will be around 5A. Add the toaster load and if the wiring is 1.5mm then you’ll be dropping a fair bit. 2.5mm is better. Better still would be for the charger to be on its own spur direct from the CU. 

[jenevers]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Voltage drop down the mains lead?

 

80A at 12V will be around 5A. Add the toaster load and if the wiring is 1.5mm then you’ll be dropping a fair bit. 2.5mm is better. Better still would be for the charger to be on its own spur direct from the CU. 

CU?

the wiring is big. I’m not aboard at the moment but I know the cabling is at least 5 mm in diameter.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, jenevers said:

CU?

the wiring is big. I’m not aboard at the moment but I know the cabling is at least 5 mm in diameter.

5mm diameter for a shoreline is not that big when you consider there are double insulation layers in it. Its less than 1/4" diameter.

[bizzard]

Consumer unit or CU Jimmy.

[Chewbacka]

34 minutes ago, jenevers said:

CU?

the wiring is big. I’m not aboard at the moment but I know the cabling is at least 5 mm in diameter.

The outside diameter of 2.5mm2 arctic cable (the blue stuff often used by boaters) is about 11mm.  So yours at “at least 5mm diameter” sounds thin.  Even 1.5mm2 artic cable is about 9mm diameter.  So I have no idea what you could be using.

 

added - just had a look online and 0.75mm2 cable is about 6.5mm diameter.  This is rated at 6A max.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Chewbacka

[WotEver]

Jimmy. We’re talking about the 230V cabling, are you?  A 6kVA generator should be wired to the consumer unit with at least 4mm² cable, 6mm² would be better. The spurs for heavy consumers such as toaster, washing machine, microwave etc should ideally be in 2.5mm². 

[WotEver]

 

Of course, the problem could equally be a loose connection somewhere along the way. 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, jenevers said:

How come? I’m getting 234v from the inverter output.

 

This of course is meaningless. What voltage are you getting on the toaster element terminals?

 

Element terminal voltages during bright red toasting and during the dull red toasting would be particularly informative please.

 

 

[Sea Dog]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This of course is meaningless. What voltage are you getting on the toaster element terminals?

 

Element terminal voltages during bright red toasting and during the dull red toasting would be particularly informative please.

 

 

Or perhaps colour photographs showing slices of toast from the same loaf toasted the same amount of time, one on each power supply option?

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Or perhaps colour photographs showing slices of toast from the same loaf toasted the same amount of time, one on each power supply option?

 

 

Not really, as this only confirms what we already know. No help at all in tracing the reason for it. 

 

If the voltages are the same for each of thew two brightnesses, next step is to rope Nick Norman in with his silly scope. 

[Sea Dog]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Not really, as this only confirms what we already know. No help at all in tracing the reason for it. 

Oh, ok - how about crumpets? 

 

(You're right, of course, but I think the serious investigation has stalled pending confirmation that the supply cable has a greater outside diameter than 5mm!)

[BEngo]

Crumpets are OK for crude assessment but the holes reduce the resolution.  Muffins are much better. They are easier to calibrate because of the uniform interior colour and generally even bake.  They also have the benefit of a larger crust/crumb ratio.

OTOH, They don't absorb as much butter as crumpets can on completion of toaster performance assessment.

N

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Crumpets are OK for crude assessment but the holes reduce the resolution.  Muffins are much better. They are easier to calibrate because of the uniform interior colour and generally even bake.  They also have the benefit of a larger crust/crumb ratio.

OTOH, They don't absorb as much butter as crumpets can on completion of toaster performance assessment.

N

This is true, but at least with a muffin half the Marmite won't dribble out while you are eating the test sample

 

[WotEver]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

next step is to rope Nick Norman in with his silly scope. 

I was sure someone was going to post me a portable scope a year or two back...

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I was sure someone was going to post me a portable scope a year or two back...

 

When a man says he'll do something, he'll do it....

 

....no need to nag him every six months.

[jenevers]

On 19/09/2018 at 17:26, Tony Brooks said:

5mm diameter for a shoreline is not that big when you consider there are double insulation layers in it. Its less than 1/4" diameter.

I meant each cable is about 5mm, ie. The earth, live and neutral are EACH about 5mm. I’ll check exactly and get back to you.

[jenevers]

Each of the 3 separate cables is 6mm2

Edited September 24, 2018 by jenevers

[nicknorman]

Presumably when the genny is running this powers the toaster directly. And when it’s not running the toaster is powered by the inverter?

 

If so it seems pretty obvious to me that the output voltage of the genny is somewhat less than that of the inverter. Maybe 220v vs the 234v of the inverter. The continentals tend to go for lower voltages than the Brits. Don’t forget that power is a function of V squared so a relatively small reduction in voltage will cause a relatively large reduction in power / heating effect.

 

[jenevers]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Presumably when the genny is running this powers the toaster directly. And when it’s not running the toaster is powered by the inverter?

 

If so it seems pretty obvious to me that the output voltage of the genny is somewhat less than that of the inverter. Maybe 220v vs the 234v of the inverter. The continentals tend to go for lower voltages than the Brits. Don’t forget that power is a function of V squared so a relatively small reduction in voltage will cause a relatively large reduction in power / heating effect.

 

Hmm. I’ll check. Thanks

[WotEver]

12 hours ago, nicknorman said:

The continentals tend to go for lower voltages than the Brits.

The reason being that historically we had 240V mains and those Johnny Foreigners had 220V. In 2003 the EU decided to ‘harmonise’ the voltage at 230V. To achieve this they made the UK voltage 230V + 10% -6% and in Europe 230V +6% -10%. This way nobody had to change anything but we’re all now nominally 230V. 

 

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

The reason being that historically we had 240V mains and those Johnny Foreigners had 220V. In 2003 the EU decided to ‘harmonise’ the voltage at 230V. To achieve this they made the UK voltage 230V + 10% -6% and in Europe 230V +6% -10%. This way nobody had to change anything but we’re all now nominally 230V. 

 

 

I suppose the extra volts are another thing we'll get back with Brexit ...

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

 

I suppose the extra volts are another thing we'll get back with Brexit ...

Shocking

 

[nicknorman]

As an aside, when I was trying to solder a fat wire with a skinny soldering iron, I struggled to get the solder to melt properly. Into the Combi settings (I have a Masterview Easy panel that effortlessly allows such things), tweak up the voltage to 245v, and voila, a satisfactory soldered joint. Then back to 220v to match the Travelpower and so that the kettle doesn’t take too much current!

[Alan de Enfield]

21 hours ago, Iain_S said:

 

I suppose the extra volts are another thing we'll get back with Brexit ...

Are we allowed to discuss current affairs outside of the authorised, monitored, & approved thread ?