Cost of rewiring

[Erik.narrowboat]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

I don't think tracing and fixing the reason for the charging not working is much more than a couple of days' work (two trips across London to visit the boat accounting for most of the time). But did I see mention of a 3kW inverter dropped casually in somewhere in the thread? If so the design of the whole could be hopelessly inadequate which might be why complete re-wiring was recommended.

I'm not going to install a kW inverter. All I'll be running on 240 is phone and laptop charger, maybe a lamp.

[Erik.narrowboat]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Its a bit of a rats nest but I have seen plenty worse. There seem to be some less than best practice with the alternator wiring but I can't see enough detail to be sure but even so at the worst it would only reduce the charge, not stop it entirely. What I take to be the split charge relay (last photo, bottom right, blue box) does not have the capacity for a typical boat so may have burned its contacts.

 

With posts like this when new boaters seem to have got themselves in over their head I  sometimes offer to have a look & diagnose FOC and possibly fix the immediate fault if near my home but there is NO WAY I would get involved in London and there is no way I would offer on a boat where it could not be started.

 

I suspect there is a fair chance that there is nothing wrong with the electrics at all apart from failed batteries and something simple enough to fix. However until you can get the engine running and get some voltage readings we can never know. Remember if a battery is disconnected nothing on the boat can discharge it and if it is discharging itself its a faulty battery.  Faulty domestic batteries are far to often caused by inadequate charging until a new boater finally gets it into their head that you need several hours engine charging a day, not one or two.

 

I would not ;eave a battery charger permanently connected  with clips (can't see the charger so no idea of quality), and  an old/ cheap/faulty  one might even contribute to discharging a battery if left connected when not charging.

 

I too suspect the advice & quotes may well be I don't want this job" based. I think you may do better by forgetting the rewiring and getting the immediate problem(s) fixed.

I was told indeed the split relay is insufficient.

 

The engine does start, it had been started last Saturday it's just that wires keep disconnecting so I can't do it myself.

 

The clips are from a solar panel, I don't know if this is the correct way to do it. Should I disconnect it?

 

 

[GRLMK38]

Just a thought ... https://shop.rivercanalrescue.co.uk/Courses/ViewCourse.aspx?courseId=2

 

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I was told indeed the split relay is insufficient.

 

The engine does start, it had been started last Saturday it's just that wires keep disconnecting so I can't do it myself.

 

The clips are from a solar panel, I don't know if this is the correct way to do it. Should I disconnect it?

 

 

Thanks

 

The clips are from a solar panel then. OK if this comes via a reputable solar controller then although its not ideal it will do for now, HOWEVER if it is directly connected and the panel is a cheapy then at night the battery MIGHT be discharging into the solar panel and if so the very least you need to do is disconnect them at dusk. Direct connection or a cheapy panel both suggest someone trying to cover up faulty batteries or a lack of charging.

 

Why do the wires keep disconnecting? Are they too short or are the connections loose. Both are normally very quick jobs to sort out, may be not in best practice but certainly fairly reliably. Any chance of a photo of the area.

 

Do you have a voltmeter or multimeter and do you know how to use it?

 

 

PS I developed the course mentioned above but no longer deliver it - not done so for several years. The course notes may have been altered but my version from when I ran the courses can be found on www.tb-training.co.uk. You are free to print them out for private use section by section.

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Erik.narrowboat]

10 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

Just a thought ... https://shop.rivercanalrescue.co.uk/Courses/ViewCourse.aspx?courseId=2

 

I have thought about that, but that will not help me now unfortunately.

[Erik.narrowboat]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Thanks

 

The clips are from a solar panel then. OK if this comes via a reputable solar controller then although its not ideal it will do for now, HOWEVER if it is directly connected and the panel is a cheapy then at night the battery MIGHT be discharging into the solar panel and if so the very least you need to do is disconnect them at dusk. Direct connection or a cheapy panel both suggest someone trying to cover up faulty batteries or a lack of charging.

 

Why do the wires keep disconnecting? Are they too short or are the connections loose. Both are normally very quick jobs to sort out, may be not in best practice but certainly fairly reliably. Any chance of a photo of the area.

 

Do you have a voltmeter or multimeter and do you know how to use it?

 

 

PS I developed the course mentioned above but no longer deliver it - not done so for several years. The course notes may have been altered but my version from when I ran the courses can be found on www.tb-training.co.uk. You are free to print them out for private use section by section.

 

 

 

I will disconnect it at night then. A mechanic measured the output of the panel and it seemed to be doing fine. I have heard indeed that it may discharge batteries at night.

 

They are too short and/or too loose, which is why some rewiring has to be done but indeed should be easy to fix it at least temporarily.

 

I do have a volt meter but actually when I measured a new battery to test it read 1 while the wires got very hot so I might be doing something wrong.

 

Thank you, that is very kind of you. I understood from your previous message that you aren't anywhere near to London or able to come here?

58 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Untidy and neglected as it is Erik, the photo appears to show that the wiring is reasonably sized, particularly the main battery cables, so probably reusable. 

 

If you know enough to be able to isolate the batteries safely and not get yourself into a mess, I'd be tempted to mark all cables and connections so you can reconnect them where they were, then remove them (individually or in a group if you're sure). Clean or replace the crimped connections, possibly cutting the cable back a bit to have fresh copper if you have the length, and then re-run them so as to reorganise the "snakes wedding" into something tidier and more organised.  As suggested earlier, just cleaning all the connections will be a big help. Having done all that, you could still find you have issues, but these will be actual faults now rather than who knows what, and anyone coming to look won't find a neglected hotch potch any tradesman in his right mind would run a mile from. 

 

You undoubtedly need to budget for new batteries, and proving your system will be impossible with duff batteries in circuit. With the wiring sorted as above, you could fit them and temporarily connect them to see where you now are and do further fault finding, disconnecting them to protect them after that if faults remain.  Do always leave them fully charged.

 

I suspect the fault finding is beyond your capabilities, but improved clean wiring all clearly marked and a fresh set of batteries ready to go will give anyone (tradesman or helpful mate with skills) a fighting chance.  Remember I started out by saying: "If you know enough to be able to isolate the batteries safely and not get yourself into a mess"!

I am hesitant to start doing wiring myself, also because I do not know if all the wiring currently is correct. What do you mean by isolate? I have replaced the starter battery myself which was fine.

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I have thought about that, but that will not help me now unfortunately.

 

Good news the engine will start. This is ESSENTIAL for diagnosing a charging fault. The 'ignition' wires you mention coming loose may or may not be related, but extending some wires and connecting them securely is a trivial repair for someone, but that 'someone' is scared other faults will then show up and they'll be left holding the baby, so to speak. 

 

You have two options as I see it. 

 

1) Embark on the really long and steep learning curve to get an understanding of basic boat electrics and fix it yourself (with unlimited help available on here) 

 

2) Carry on looking for someone to do it for you. Starting the engine and moving the boat to a wharf or out of London will stand you in good stead. Or possibly best, take it to a boat yard. 

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I will disconnect it at night then. A mechanic measured the output of the panel and it seemed to be doing fine. I have heard indeed that it may discharge batteries at night.

 

They are too short and/or too loose, which is why some rewiring has to be done but indeed should be easy to fix it at least temporarily.

 

I do have a volt meter but actually when I measured a new battery to test it read 1 while the wires got very hot so I might be doing something wrong.

 

Thank you, that is very kind of you. I understood from your previous message that you aren't anywhere near to London or able to come here?

 

As I said there is no way I will get involved in London and its a bit far from Reading or Braunston for a freeby. I no longer carry out paid for work but do try to help other boaters where I can.

 

I think you had the wires in the "Amps" hole and have probably ruined the meter's amp reading capability - even it it was set for Volts.  That is not as drastic as it sounds because unless its a DC clamp type meter the amps scale has very limited use on boats. Use the link I gave you to read up on how to set the meter up for volts or come back if you do not understand it.

 

I assume that the wires that fall off are thin ones because the really thick wires have nut & stud eye terminals.

 

If they are just too loose then GENTLY squeezing then up with pliers will often do the job.

 

I would suggest that the first thing you need to do is do extend the cables a little. Some on here will throw their hands up in horror but you need a pair of side cutter/cable strippers, a decent pair of terminal crimpers - ratchet type not pressed steel "pliers" and the correct crimp on terminals Plus some lengths of wire that look the same thickness and ideally but not necessarily the same colour as the ones that keep falling off. I expect Halfords will sell what you need. For examples look here http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/73/1/pre-insulated-terminals

 

Get ordinary ones for now but if successful change to heat shrink adhesive ones later.

 

The terminal colours are important, you need the correct colour for the size of cable.

 

Cut a short length of new cable and strip about 3 to 4mm of insulation off the end.Push the stripped end into the correct terminal, you may have to twist the strands together a little, and use the correct part of the crimping jaws to fix the terminal onto the cable. Give the joint a bit of a tug to make sure its tight.

Now strip the other end, and crimp a cable connector (like a tube) on. Next cut the terminal off the old cable, strip it and crimp the cable joiner into it. Even allowing for beginners ham fistedness I think 15 minutes per cable would be ample time.

 

If you work logically, one cable at a time then you will be in the same position except the terminals will not fall off than you are in now  and that may be all that is required plus some testing to ensure the batteries are charging.

 

I would use soldered but splice connectors to join the cables covered with heat shrink tubing but I can solder, if you try you will probably run solder down the strands and make the cable libel to snap.

 

Unless there are problems you have not told us I doubt there is much wrong with the boat - apart from untidy wiring - at least on the 12V side..

 

[Erik.narrowboat]

I totally understand. Your advice is useful though. I'm a little hesitant to just start changing wires myself but maybe with some reading and step by step approach it might be manageable.

 

I am quite sure I had put it in the volt hole, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

They are the thin wires indeed.

 

Again,I'll have to read into all of this before I start doing anything. I do not have time to read your manual right now but will do so on the weekend.

 

I think one things that causes some concern and point to a larger problem is the fact that all batteries went competely flat, down to almost 0. I then installed a new starter battery and disconnected the leisure batteries so they wouldn't drain it. The starter battery was at about 10 volts when the mechanic came yesterday from 11 on Saturday. Then after he reattached some of the wires it quickly went down to 5 volts so that could mean there is a 'leak'. I assume this is why rewiring was recommended as it could be the domestics are draining the battery. Though they shouldn't be on the same circuit.

I don't know if this makes any sense but it's the only problem I can think of that would require further inspection.

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I totally understand. Your advice is useful though. I'm a little hesitant to just start changing wires myself but maybe with some reading and step by step approach it might be manageable.

 

I am quite sure I had put it in the volt hole, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

They are the thin wires indeed.

 

Again,I'll have to read into all of this before I start doing anything. I do not have time to read your manual right now but will do so on the weekend.

 

I think one things that causes some concern and point to a larger problem is the fact that all batteries went competely flat, down to almost 0. I then installed a new starter battery and disconnected the leisure batteries so they wouldn't drain it. The starter battery was at about 10 volts when the mechanic came yesterday from 11 on Saturday. Then after he reattached some of the wires it quickly went down to 5 volts so that could mean there is a 'leak'. I assume this is why rewiring was recommended as it could be the domestics are draining the battery. Though they shouldn't be on the same circuit.

I don't know if this makes any sense but it's the only problem I can think of that would require further inspection.

I think the starter going flat is unlikely to be a wiring problem. Wires don’t leak, it is what they are connected to that does, or can do! Wires either work, don’t work (due to a broken connection) or create a short circuit which would probably melt them.

 

there is a thing called a split charge relay (small black box) that is designed to connect domestic and engine batteries when charging, and separate them when not charging. The contacts in an inadequately sized relay can weld themselves together so that the two battery banks remain connected even when not charging. This is the sort of problem you might have - a problem with the equipment, rather than the wiring.

 

I have a recollection that you said you had a new starter battery? If so, leaving it flat like that will ruin it almost immediately. Leaving a battery not fully charged (12.7v or so), for any length of time will ruin it quickly. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by nicknorman

[Erik.narrowboat]

The split charge relay is visible in the last one of the photos I posted earlier, to the very right. It is actually a blue box. It was pointed out by two electricians and also somewhere else in this thread that it would not be powerful enough. I reckon I should replace it. I guess that would be quite easy?

 

I am trying to charge the battery using the solar panel, hopefully that will work. The problem is with the starter battery flat I can't start the engine which means I can't charge it... I'm hoping the solar panels will have charged it by the end of the day so it will be able to start the engine, then I could see if the engine will charge the battery.

[Tony Brooks]

How large is the solar panel? Those clips suggest it may be an "Alde Special" in which case you may as well try peeing the a lock to fill it. Both are likely  to have a  similar degree of success.

 

Your engine battery looks as if its around a 70Ah one. It is now absolutely flat plus some and probably damaged. To recharge you must put around 95Ah back in but a LITTLE less would probably get it started.

 

A modest 40 watt panel will produce a maximum of around 2 amps in high summer with a horizontal panel with much less at either end of the day OS lets as on average 1 amp - an that is probably optimistic.  1 amp for around 12 hours = 12 Ah so that's about eight days.

 

A 20 watt panel gives around 16 days while an "Alde Special" that is only rated in mW of output would take months or never if the battery's self discharge rate was close to the panel output or no blocking diodes were in the design.

[Erik.narrowboat]

I actually connected a different one from the one you see in the photo. The current one is about half a square meter I would say. I don't know how much watt. The electrician yesterday said it would take about three days to charge the batteries with this one.

 

The battery is around 100Ah (I don't remember the exact number, will have to check).

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

The current one is about half a square meter I would say.

Probably 10-20W max

[Chewbacka]

9 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I actually connected a different one from the one you see in the photo. The current one is about half a square meter I would say. I don't know how much watt. The electrician yesterday said it would take about three days to charge the batteries with this one.

 

The battery is around 100Ah (I don't remember the exact number, will have to check).

Remember that the 3 day estimate to recharge assumes that nothing is taken out of the batteries during this time.  So if you are using power, you may well (probably will be if running a fridge or laptop etc) be using far more than you are putting in, therefore flat & damaged batteries..........

[Erik.narrowboat]

I'm not taking anything out at the moment, the fridge and domestics are not working. Also, it's the starter battery so domestics shouldn't run from there, unless something is connected wrongly.

[David Mack]

The electrical system required solely to start the engine and charge the battery is pretty simple. So if you can manage with zero domestic electricity for a few days, it ought to be possible to completely disconnect the domestic side, and check/clean/tighten all the connections on the engine side. Then with your existing engine battery charged by solar, or if you can borrow a suitable charged battery, or even use jump leads from a boat alongside, you should be able to start the engine, and charge the engine battery (if it isn't completely knackered).  That gets you mobile, and able to charge the engine battery.  It will need hours of engine running to get it up to full charge, but then your solar may well keep it charged. 

 

At least in the current weather you should be getting a reasonable output from the solar, and starting a warm engine will ask less of the battery.

 

And you then have a little more time to sort out the domestic side.

[Erik.narrowboat]

I just called the electrician who came yesterday for a quote for just rewiring the engine room. He said the job is estimated at 5k because the inverter would be very expensive. I reckon I could actually do without and run everything on 12v. I do not currently have a computer so all I would charge is my phone. All the domestics should run on 12v I imagine. Does this sound correct? Should I be able do run everything on 12v? I understand that means no tv, perhaps no microwave but that's fine, I didn't have those in my house either. The most important thing is the fridge, lights and the water pump (I guess the pump runs on 12v?).

Otherwise, should canal and river rescue be able to sort me? Or do they just do emergency repairs?

 

I also wanted to say thanks to everyone for the great amount of responses in less than a day. As you noticed I'm quite new to this but I am learning a lot from you and really appreciate your help.

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I just called the electrician who came yesterday for a quote for just rewiring the engine room. He said the job is estimated at 5k because the inverter would be very expensive. I reckon I could actually do without and run everything on 12v. I do not currently have a computer so all I would charge is my phone. All the domestics should run on 12v I imagine. Does this sound correct? Should I be able do run everything on 12v? I understand that means no tv, perhaps no microwave but that's fine, I didn't have those in my house either. The most important thing is the fridge, lights and the water pump (I guess the pump runs on 12v?).

Otherwise, should canal and river rescue be able to sort me? Or do they just do emergency repairs?

 

I also wanted to say thanks to everyone for the great amount of responses in less than a day. As you noticed I'm quite new to this but I am learning a lot from you and really appreciate your help.

Although a inverter is nice, it certainly isn't compulsory. 

 

As you already have a 12v fridge, pumps and lights, perhaps add a 12 v tv, 12v phone/laptop charger etc. 

 

Then at a later date, if you find you need an inverter you can add one. Best imo to get the basics sorted, including battery charging and monitoring (perhaps add a bit of solar). 

 

ETA. You can always get a low power inverter (pretty cheap)  to run any small items you can't find a 12v alternative for, but lots of 12 v stuff is available these days. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by rusty69

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I understand that means no tv, perhaps no microwave but that's fine

If you don't have an inverter, and you don't have a 'landline' connection than that just means that you cannot use ANY mains voltage (230v) equipment.

No mains phone charger, no mains computer, no mains microwave, no mains TV, no mains fridge, etc etc etc.

 

You can use 12v (to USB) phone charger, 12v Tablet (to USB) charger (but probably not a laptop), you can get a 12v microwave, 12v TV and a 12v Fridge, but the more 'toys' you have and use the longer you will need to run the engine every day to recharge the batteries.

Do not be surprised if you have to run the engine 4 or 5 hours EVERY day, and 8 hours at weekends.

 

 

Managing electricity is the hardest, most complicated, part of boat life.

[Tony Brooks]

Everything including lap top computers (with car power supply) and small TVs will run off 12V. You can even get 12V microwaves but they will be a bit heavy on electrical consumption.

 

To answer someone’s suggestion that the split charge relay may have welded its contacts together. set you meter up for either ohms or a beep/sounder test. Disconnect ONE of the large nut type terminals from the relay. If it has 2 x large blades just pull one off. Connect the meter leads to the two LARGE terminals. If you have it set to beep then if the relay is not welded together the meter will remain silent. If it beeps the contact are stuck together and that would give a reason for the start battery going flat.

 

If you are using Ohms set the meter to the 200 Ohm scale. Join the two leads and the meter should read close to zero - 0.2 or similar.  Now disconnect the leads and the meter should put a one (1) on the right of the screen. Whenever an ohm meter has disconnected leads it looks a sif it reads one but its actually I for infinity. Now connect the leads to the two large relay terminals. The meter will read I (1 at the "wrong end of the screen) if the contacts are open (OK) or something small like 0.9 if they are stuck together.

[Erik.narrowboat]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you don't have an inverter, and you don't have a 'landline' connection than that just means that you cannot use ANY mains voltage (230v) equipment.

No mains phone charger, no mains computer, no mains microwave, no mains TV, no mains fridge, etc etc etc.

 

You can use 12v (to USB) phone charger, 12v Tablet (to USB) charger (but probably not a laptop), you can get a 12v microwave, 12v TV and a 12v Fridge, but the more 'toys' you have and use the longer you will need to run the engine every day to recharge the batteries.

Do not be surprised if you have to run the engine 4 or 5 hours EVERY day, and 8 hours at weekends.

 

 

Managing electricity is the hardest, most complicated, part of boat life.

I understand there is a trade off, but I actually don't have many 'toys'. I have never owned a TV, I never use the microwave and for the past two months I have gone without my laptop as it has broken down. I will probably buy a new one at some point. I reckon it should be possible to charge phone and laptop on 12v. I also charge my phone at work a lot.

 

In any case as someone said above I could fix the basics and then start worrying about getting an inverter or not.

[WotEver]

39 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

In any case as someone said above I could fix the basics and then start worrying about getting an inverter or not.

Off the top of my head, to get the engine started and the engine battery charging (assuming an earthed alternator) requires a total of 7 wires including via the isolator:

 

1. Batt negative to hull and/or engine

2. Batt positive to isolator

3. Isolator to starter motor

4. Isolator to alternator B+

5. Isolator to warning light

6. Warning light to alternator IND

7. Ignition switch to starter motor. 

 

[bizzard]

Electric fridges are an absolute battery killer on a boat with modest-basic electrics. If your fridge is an old Electrolux 3 way the 12v will draw about 7amps. If its the small 122 model with no thermostat the draw is about 5-7 amps continuous. Run it on gas or only 12v if the engines running on a trip ''providing the alternator is is keeping the battery charged, of course'' . Switch it back to gas pronto at the end of the trip.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I just called the electrician who came yesterday for a quote for just rewiring the engine room. He said the job is estimated at 5k because the inverter would be very expensive. I reckon I could actually do without and run everything on 12v. I do not currently have a computer so all I would charge is my phone. All the domestics should run on 12v I imagine. Does this sound correct? Should I be able do run everything on 12v? I understand that means no tv, perhaps no microwave but that's fine, I didn't have those in my house either. The most important thing is the fridge, lights and the water pump (I guess the pump runs on 12v?).

Otherwise, should canal and river rescue be able to sort me? Or do they just do emergency repairs?

 

I also wanted to say thanks to everyone for the great amount of responses in less than a day. As you noticed I'm quite new to this but I am learning a lot from you and really appreciate your help.

It sounds to me as though your electrician didn’t really ask you what you want, or at least listen to the answer. No point in paying £ks of money for something you don’t want! And of course if you have a powerful inverter to run powerful things, you still need to find the power from somewhere to recharge the batteries. Big inverters are a good way for the uninitiated to flatten their batteries.

 

As has been said, most or all of the stuff you want to run can be done from 12v.