Cost of rewiring

[Erik.narrowboat]

I'm in London, currently near the St Pancras dock. I have been trying lots of people but nobody seems to have time, and ask the good electricians seem to be outside of London.

 

It had an ampmeter but as Tony pointed out earlier I probably destroyed it because I had the wires attached wrongly and also the multimeter would probably not be accurate enough. If I understand Tony's previous posts correctly measuring with an ampmeter would probably be the next step.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Erik.narrowboat

[Sea Dog]

Erik, the wiring in the first photo is really manky.  It would be a good idea to clean it all up and, whilst you're at it, clean up and ensure the tightness of all of the connections you can find. The metal contacts should be corrosion free, bright and shiny and a good fit.  A thin film of vaseline or silicone grease will help keep them that way in what's obviously a damp environment. You've got other issues, obviously, but mucky wiring can cause tracking and dirty or loose connections will present a high resistance.  It's something you can do yourself and it will pay dividends - you don't need those issues causing any further complications as you follow Tony's excellent advice.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Sea Dog
Changed photo number

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I'm in London, currently near the St Pancras dock. I have been trying lots of people but nobody seems to have time, and ask the good electricians seem to be outside of London.

 

It had an ampmeter but as Tony pointed out earlier I probably destroyed it because I had the wires attached wrongly and also the multimeter would probably not be accurate enough. If I understand Tony's previous posts correctly measuring with an ampmeter would probably be the next step.

London - OK I understand the problem of getting help.

 

IF you decide to buy a Clamp-meter (about £30 on ebay and other places) MAKE SURE it measure DC amps and not just AC Amps descriptions can be a bit deceiving with something like :

 

"Measures AC to 600v, DC to 40v, Current to 400 amps ………………." BUT it doesn't actually say "DC Current"

 

This is the one that I (and many others here) use

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNI-T-UT203-Digital-Clamp-Multimeter-DC-AC-Volt-Meter-Tester-400A-FrequencyBI152-/153017194091?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10

Edited August 21, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Unfortunately the charge warning light does not light up with the ignition on (I moved the key halfway and also started the engine but nothing happened.

When pushing the D+ against the case still nothing happens.

Then the alternator cannot work. 

 

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I realised while doing this that an electrician told me that the engine electrics are connected to the domestics, which might explain why they don't light up as they would take energy from the domestic bank, which is empty  

Yes, that makes sense. 

 

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I have also installed a new leisure battery (and taken it out again) just to test if that would make any difference but in fact nothing happened (I tested the lighting in the boat but that didn't work so I guess there is another problem with the domestics).

I think we’re at the stage where you really need someone who knows what he’s doing to take a look it for you. 

[Erik.narrowboat]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Erik, the wiring in the first photo is really manky.  It would be a good idea to clean it all up and, whilst you're at it, clean up and ensure the tightness of all of the connections you can find. The metal contacts should be corrosion free, bright and shiny and a good fit.  A thin film of vaseline or silicone grease will help keep them that way in what's obviously a damp environment. You've got other issues, obviously, but mucky wiring can cause tracking and dirty or loose connections will present a high resistance.  It's something you can do yourself and it will pay dividends - you don't need those issues causing any further complications as you follow Tony's excellent advice.

I plan to use the upcoming bank holiday to do as much maintenance and cleaning as I can. I have to prioritize but you are of course right that these kind of small bits of maintenance can make a difference too 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

London - OK I understand the problem of getting help.

 

IF you decide to buy a Clamp-meter (about £30 on ebay and other places) MAKE SURE it measure DC amps and not just AC Amps descriptions can be a bit deceiving with something like :

 

"Measures AC to 600v, DC to 40v, Current to 400 amps ………………." BUT it doesn't actually say "DC Current"

 

This is the one that I (and many others here) use

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNI-T-UT203-Digital-Clamp-Multimeter-DC-AC-Volt-Meter-Tester-400A-FrequencyBI152-/153017194091?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10

I'll have to read how to use it and what I would be measuring, but thanks for your input.

[Erik.narrowboat]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Then the alternator cannot work. 

 

Yes, that makes sense. 

 

I think we’re at the stage where you really need someone who knows what he’s doing to take a look it for you. 

I'm glad that it makes some sense. It's a bit complicated as well though, at least according to the electrician it's ridiculous to have engine electrics on the domestic bank so if that is true some of the wiring will have to be adjusted.

 

I'm also not sure why the lights (cabin lights) did not work when I put in a new battery as they were working previously. Something just have been disconnected.

 

It would be really great to have someone have a look but it's just impossible to find a qualified person who is able to travel to central London. I could perhaps move the boat out a bit if that helps.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Erik.narrowboat

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I plan to use the upcoming bank holiday to do as much maintenance and cleaning as I can. I have to prioritize but you are of course right that these kind of small bits of maintenance can make a difference too 

I'll have to read how to use it and what I would be measuring, but thanks for your input.

Use is idiot proof (it has to be for me to use it)

 

Start engine

Turn on meter and rotate knob until it points to 400 amps

Press button on the side to open the 'jaws'

Put jaws around the big cable coming from the alternator

Close jaws

Keep the cable roughly in the middle of the clamp (so its not touching the sides of the jaws)

Read the number its showing on the display - this is the number of amps being produced by the alternator.

 

Any reading you are getting will show the alternator is working - if the battery is well charged then you will only get a low number - maybe 5 or 6 amps (for example)

Don't worry if it show a 'negative number' (say -6.50) it doesn't matter if you clamp onto the + wire or the - wire (the clamp meter will still give the correct 'number').

[Erik.narrowboat]

Thanks, that seems straightforward. I'll look into buying one tomorrow. the

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Hi Tony,

These are my findings:

- When measuring the engine battery it reads 12.57, which makes sense as I have used it last Sunday so it has rained a little.

- measuring between B+ and B- (the case), I get the same voltage of 12.57.

- measuring between B+ and battery neg I get again 12.57

- between B- and battery plus I get again 12.57

So I guess we can conclude that these connections are fine.

 

The thin wire seems indeed to go into the switchboard. There are so many writers that I found it hard to locate it.

 

Unfortunately the charge warning light does not light up with the ignition on (I moved the key halfway and also started the engine but nothing happened.

When pushing the D+ against the case still nothing happens.

 

I realised while doing this that an electrician told me that the engine electrics are connected to the domestics, which might explain why they don't light up as they would take energy from the domestic bank, which is empty. I don't know if I understood this correctly. I have also installed a new leisure battery (and taken it out again) just to test if that would make any difference but in fact nothing happened (I tested the lighting in the boat but that didn't work so I guess there is another problem with the domestics).

 

I hope you can make any conclusions from this and look forward to hear your verdict.

 

Thank you for your guidance.

 

I spent a hour replying and the site crashed.

 

I have to go out now and will not be able to replay until late today or tomorrow PM - sorry.

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Thanks, that seems straightforward. I'll look into buying one tomorrow. the

However... all that it’ll show you right now is that the alternator isn’t working. Which it won’t be, if the warning light doesn’t light up with the ignition on. 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

However... all that it’ll show you right now is that the alternator isn’t working. Which it won’t be, if the warning light doesn’t light up with the ignition on. 

I had just popped back to say don't buy the meter, it wont tell you anything you don't know already and when it might be time to use it then the procedure for an accurate result is not as simple as has been stated - especially if the relay turns out to be faulty. Hold off spending money now..

[Erik.narrowboat]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I had just popped back to say don't buy the meter, it wont tell you anything you don't know already and when it might be time to use it then the procedure for an accurate result is not as simple as has been stated - especially if the relay turns out to be faulty. Hold off spending money now..

Sure. I wasn't going to rush out and buy it first thing before seeing your reply and what the next steps might be. Of course I'm happy with an answer whenever it suits you (and there is not technical error).

[Erik.narrowboat]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

However... all that it’ll show you right now is that the alternator isn’t working. Which it won’t be, if the warning light doesn’t light up with the ignition on. 

As I mentioned, the warning light might take its current from the (flat) domestic batteries in which case that would be the reason for it not lighting up and doesn't tell us anything about the alternator. Again, I might understand this incorrectly but I guess there might be other reasons for the light not lighting up than the alternator being faulty.

[WotEver]

14 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I guess there might be other reasons for the light not lighting up than the alternator being faulty.

Absolutely. But until you DO have it lighting up then you can’t move forward. You can’t check the alternator out because we already know it won’t work because the warning light isn’t lighting up. It’s the current passing through the warning light that ‘starts’ the alternator, so the first step is to sort that problem out. The fact that shorting the D+ wire to the case didn’t light the bulb shows that either there’s a wiring fault or there’s no 12V coming from the ignition switch. 

[Erik.narrowboat]

That makes sense. There is clearly a problem with the domestic bank so I'll have to see how to approach that as well.

[Tony Brooks]

Right I have a few minutes now.

 

The tests show the main alternator wiring is almost certainly OK but there is a warning lamp circuit problem OR worn brushes in the alternator

 

If the engine starts on the ignition switch then forget about the engine electrics being fed form the domestic battery because they should all be controlled from the ignition switch.

 

I would also advise that you forget about tidying the wiring up until we have the alternator charging.

 

First we need to see if its the warning lamp circuit because the alternator will not energise without current from the waning lamp so more tests.

 

Because your D+ terminal is the 6mm blade with the blue wire on t and its very close to the pair of B+ terminals AND the alternator case it would be unwise to do this test in the normal way so:

 

Get a length of wire of any thickness bare at each end. At a point lose t the alternator push a pin right through the centre of the  blue cable but do not let it touch anything metal. Connect the voltmeter to the engine battery and start the engine and rev to around 1200 to 1500 rpm.  Now touch one end of the wire to engine battery positive and the other end t the pin. The voltmeter should jump up as you did  it. If so the alternator is OK and the problem is the warning lamp circuit.

 

Stop engine and remove the pin.

 

If the voltage does not jump up then the alternator is faulty and its probably the brushes. The brushes are fixed to the voltage regulator that is held on the back of the alternator by four small hexagon screws. You could just replace the whole regulator assembly BU the problem may be the slip rings so I would advise taking the alternator for overhaul.

 

If the voltage does jump up the problem will be in the warning lamp circuit so we need to test it logically.

 

Get access to the back of the ignition switch/instrument panel. The ignition switch should have two thick cables on two large (9mm blades) and probably two or more thin ones but some of the thin ones may be fitted twin terminals - all 6mm blades

 

Voltmeter negative to battery negative, clean metal on the engine or alternator, any negative connection, or any clean metal that is part of the hull.

 

With the ignition off touch the meter pos. to each terminal in turn. It should only read battery voltage on one with a thick wire on it. The rest should read  zero. I am confident this will be the case it it starts on the key.

 

Turn the ignition on and connect the meter to each 6mm or thin wire terminal in turn. Just one should register battery voltage. If not the switch is faulty but I very much doubt it is if it starts on the key. Note that terminal.

 

Now, with the ignition switch on touch the meter pos. to the wire that is NOT blue on the back of the warning lamp. It should read battery voltage. If not connect a new length of cable from the terminal you noted above and the bulb holder .

 

Next inspect the bulb to make sure its not blown and put back into the holder (or swap it for the oil waning lamp holder for now).

 

If the bulb is OK but still not lighting p then put the meter positive on the side of the bulb holder with the blue wire on it. The meter should read about 12V. If not its a blown bulb or a faulty bulb older.

 

If it does read 12V it means the wire between bulb and alternator is open circuited so:

 

Put the pin back in but this time connect it to battery negative. The bulb should light up. If not look for  a poor connection in the blue wire (possibly within a large multi-plug connector on the engine harness) but I would simply run a new cable from the warning lamp t the D+ terminal so you know its good. When you are happy all the test give the correct result and the warning lamp comes on, goes of as the engine starts and is revved a little and the warning lamp goes out connect the voltmeter to the domestic bank.  Start and rev the engine. the meter should jump up and if it does the relay is working. f not the relay is suspect BUT the two battery bank negatives may not be inked so take some time to trace the thick negate battery cables. One should link both bank's negatives but it is possible there may be a lead on the domestic bank negative that rubs to the engine bock, engine bed, or a negative connection on the starter. If no such link s present the fit one between two bank negatives. Any thickish wire will do for now but in the end it needs to have a conductor cross sectional area of 25 sq mm or largerto pass the BSS.

 

When all that is done and if the voltage on the domestic bank does not jump up when the engine is started and revved then:

 

Take the two thick wires of the blue split charge relay and join them. Start and rev the engine and the voltage will jump up a little. this proves the relay is suspect but don't change it yet, come back for more tests. Put the thick wires ack on the relay, which wire to which terminal is not in any way critical, either way will do.

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Absolutely. But until you DO have it lighting up then you can’t move forward. You can’t check the alternator out because we already know it won’t work because the warning light isn’t lighting up. It’s the current passing through the warning light that ‘starts’ the alternator, so the first step is to sort that problem out. The fact that shorting the D+ wire to the case didn’t light the bulb shows that either there’s a wiring fault or there’s no 12V coming from the ignition switch. 

 Or the alternator brushes/slip rings are open circuit.

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Or the alternator brushes/slip rings are open circuit

But he shorted the D+ wire to earth, so if there’s 12V on the warning light and if the bulb isn’t blown then surely it should have lit up at that time?

[Sir Nibble]

Bless you all for your patience. Just popped in to suggest that if Tony's pin through the wire test shows a voltage rise, that may be a good time to check if the increased voltage also appears at the domestic battery and leave it running for a while whilst it's actually charging.

[Erik.narrowboat]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Right I have a few minutes now.

 

The tests show the main alternator wiring is almost certainly OK but there is a warning lamp circuit problem OR worn brushes in the alternator

 

If the engine starts on the ignition switch then forget about the engine electrics being fed form the domestic battery because they should all be controlled from the ignition switch.

 

I would also advise that you forget about tidying the wiring up until we have the alternator charging.

 

First we need to see if its the warning lamp circuit because the alternator will not energise without current from the waning lamp so more tests.

 

Because your D+ terminal is the 6mm blade with the blue wire on t and its very close to the pair of B+ terminals AND the alternator case it would be unwise to do this test in the normal way so:

 

Get a length of wire of any thickness bare at each end. At a point lose t the alternator push a pin right through the centre of the  blue cable but do not let it touch anything metal. Connect the voltmeter to the engine battery and start the engine and rev to around 1200 to 1500 rpm.  Now touch one end of the wire to engine battery positive and the other end t the pin. The voltmeter should jump up as you did  it. If so the alternator is OK and the problem is the warning lamp circuit.

 

Stop engine and remove the pin.

 

If the voltage does not jump up then the alternator is faulty and its probably the brushes. The brushes are fixed to the voltage regulator that is held on the back of the alternator by four small hexagon screws. You could just replace the whole regulator assembly BU the problem may be the slip rings so I would advise taking the alternator for overhaul.

 

If the voltage does jump up the problem will be in the warning lamp circuit so we need to test it logically.

 

Get access to the back of the ignition switch/instrument panel. The ignition switch should have two thick cables on two large (9mm blades) and probably two or more thin ones but some of the thin ones may be fitted twin terminals - all 6mm blades

 

Voltmeter negative to battery negative, clean metal on the engine or alternator, any negative connection, or any clean metal that is part of the hull.

 

With the ignition off touch the meter pos. to each terminal in turn. It should only read battery voltage on one with a thick wire on it. The rest should read  zero. I am confident this will be the case it it starts on the key.

 

Turn the ignition on and connect the meter to each 6mm or thin wire terminal in turn. Just one should register battery voltage. If not the switch is faulty but I very much doubt it is if it starts on the key. Note that terminal.

 

Now, with the ignition switch on touch the meter pos. to the wire that is NOT blue on the back of the warning lamp. It should read battery voltage. If not connect a new length of cable from the terminal you noted above and the bulb holder .

 

Next inspect the bulb to make sure its not blown and put back into the holder (or swap it for the oil waning lamp holder for now).

 

If the bulb is OK but still not lighting p then put the meter positive on the side of the bulb holder with the blue wire on it. The meter should read about 12V. If not its a blown bulb or a faulty bulb older.

 

If it does read 12V it means the wire between bulb and alternator is open circuited so:

 

Put the pin back in but this time connect it to battery negative. The bulb should light up. If not look for  a poor connection in the blue wire (possibly within a large multi-plug connector on the engine harness) but I would simply run a new cable from the warning lamp t the D+ terminal so you know its good. When you are happy all the test give the correct result and the warning lamp comes on, goes of as the engine starts and is revved a little and the warning lamp goes out connect the voltmeter to the domestic bank.  Start and rev the engine. the meter should jump up and if it does the relay is working. f not the relay is suspect BUT the two battery bank negatives may not be inked so take some time to trace the thick negate battery cables. One should link both bank's negatives but it is possible there may be a lead on the domestic bank negative that rubs to the engine bock, engine bed, or a negative connection on the starter. If no such link s present the fit one between two bank negatives. Any thickish wire will do for now but in the end it needs to have a conductor cross sectional area of 25 sq mm or largerto pass the BSS.

 

When all that is done and if the voltage on the domestic bank does not jump up when the engine is started and revved then:

 

Take the two thick wires of the blue split charge relay and join them. Start and rev the engine and the voltage will jump up a little. this proves the relay is suspect but don't change it yet, come back for more tests. Put the thick wires ack on the relay, which wire to which terminal is not in any way critical, either way will do.

 Or the alternator brushes/slip rings are open circuit.

Thank you your ever clear and detailed instructions. Unfortunately I managed to only try part of it. I could not find a suitable on or a piece of wire long enough so I will have to go to the so tomorrow to but these.

I have instead measured the wires on the back of the ignition switch.

The image below shows the back of the ignition switch. The thick red wire right of center with a yellow female connection shows indeed battery voltage. The two think wires to the left with blue female connections also show battery voltage. The wire behind shows about 3 volts. The last wire all the way to the right shows 0 volt.

The bulb in the warning light is not blown.

Unfortunately it has started to get dark and it's after 8 so I didn't want to run the engine unnecessarily when I won't be able to complete the whole test anyway. I will continue tomorrow and hopefully report back with the full result.

[Tony Brooks]

Nothing can be certain until tested, especially in view of what you have been told about the boat but from the photo it LOOKS a sif the connections are as below. However it seems some cable are probably thicker then the strictly need to be so that makes identifying circuits difficult but really ticker is better.

 

Red cable & all over yellow insulation on terminal - live feed from battery, may be from starter motor main positive terminal on solenoid. Should be at battery voltage all the time the master switch is turned on.

 

Hard to see cable colour with large blade & yellow insulated terminal crimp - probably to glow plugs. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the glow plug position.

 

What looks like a black cable with exposed conductors in a blue crimp insulation - to single terminal on starter solenoid. This one operates the starter. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the start position.

 

The twinned 6mm blades with two red wires in blue insulated terminals one of  which lead to a connector block with more wires attached - feed to all the instruments and warning lamps - the auxiliary feed. Normally at battery voltage at all key positions except off.

So make sure this is as I say be testing and then ensure the charge warning lamp gets its live feed from here.

[nicknorman]

I haven’t read the whole thread but has it been ascertained whether the warning light bulb itself is actually working, or blown?

[Sea Dog]

28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Nothing can be certain until tested, especially in view of what you have been told about the boat but from the photo it LOOKS a sif the connections are as below. However it seems some cable are probably thicker then the strictly need to be so that makes identifying circuits difficult but really ticker is better.

 

Red cable & all over yellow insulation on terminal - live feed from battery, may be from starter motor main positive terminal on solenoid. Should be at battery voltage all the time the master switch is turned on.

 

Hard to see cable colour with large blade & yellow insulated terminal crimp - probably to glow plugs. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the glow plug position.

 

What looks like a black cable with exposed conductors in a blue crimp insulation - to single terminal on starter solenoid. This one operates the starter. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the start position.

 

The twinned 6mm blades with two red wires in blue insulated terminals one of  which lead to a connector block with more wires attached - feed to all the instruments and warning lamps - the auxiliary feed. Normally at battery voltage at all key positions except off.

So make sure this is as I say be testing and then ensure the charge warning lamp gets its live feed from here.

Erik, when you've cleaned everything up, label all the cables as per Tony's identifications above and elsewhere.  Add a question mark on those which aren't certain. This will save you re-reading everything repeatedly and assist you greatly if you have to disconnect any cables. It will also give anyone who comes to help you a fighting chance, saving lots of time at the investigative stage.  In the absence of anything more suitable, a fold of masking tape will do the trick.

[WotEver]

49 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I haven’t read the whole thread but has it been ascertained whether the warning light bulb itself is actually working, or blown?

According to the OP, yes. 

But we haven’t ascertained if the bulb holder is good. 

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

According to the OP, yes. 

But we haven’t ascertained if the bulb holder is good. 

Hence the voltage checks from ign. Sw. to bulb holder & beyond.

 

Looking at the switch photo I suspect there is a good chance there is no feed to the bulb.

 

 

 

[WotEver]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Looking at the switch photo I suspect there is a good chance there is no feed to the bulb.

Yup.

 

I’m not impressed with the Wago connector either but that’s a minor thing at this stage.