Cost of rewiring

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't understand this moving wires bit UNLESS Erik means he moved the meter to the domestic bank.

Yes I believe that’s exactly what he means. 

 

I agree that a VSR will be the best way forwards for Erik. Something is wrong right now and it’s hardly worth fixing what is a poor solution anyway. Lots of wires to strip out of the loom though. 

[Erik.narrowboat]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't understand this moving wires bit UNLESS Erik means he moved the meter to the domestic bank. If so then the wiring is at fault and I think a new VSR and wiring will be the easiest way forward but its his call. goodness knows where those two thicker wires come from though. Your test about three posts above might give a clue but I am getting ready to simply replace them so we know what is going on..

Yes, that is what I meant.

 

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Erik, did the domestic battery voltage rise when you touched those two big terminals? I do not see an answer to that question.

 

If it did not then there is a wiring fault, if it did the relay is faulty or there is something wrong with the wiring to energise it.  As the two wire colours other photos indicate might energise it are blue or brown and there are no brown wires there I suspect the wiring even if the relay is not faulty

 

If the relay is faulty you need to decide if you want another ordinary split charge relay that will involve you making and running two thick red wires plus a thin other than black colour plus a thin black one. The thin "other than black" one can be run from the charge warning lamp that will also need to be fixed or the D+ on the alternator.

 

If you decide on a VSR like I showed you then you will need to run two thick red wires and one thin black wire and leave sorting the warning light until we get bot batteries charging.

 

 

Sorting the warning lights is going involve some rewiring and although you can loop cables from instrument to instrument and to warning lamps it is probably easier if you stick with one wire for one job so that will involve what we call a bus bar. It also make s fault fining simpler. The bus bar is nothing difficult or expensive. The one I Ludlow suggest you screw under the instrument panel is this one http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/338/3-x-6-way-terminal-block or similar. It will allow you to run 5 negatives and five positiver with a spare set of blades between them to keep the wires apart and they take crimp blade terminals to make fitting  a little easier. I mention this now so if you buy mail order you can get both and hopefully only pay one lot of postage.

 

You will also need maybe three metres of 8.5 or 10 sq mm conductor cross sectional area with suitable terminals for the job and ratchet crimp tool. A similar amount of 1 or 2 sq mm CCSA black cable. If you elect to go for a split charge relay then several meters of similar thin cable in another colour, all plus suitable terminals, and thin zip ties to fit keep the new cables secure. If it is all to come from the same place then a red plus an amber warning lamp.

 

You do not have to buy its all at once because we can do it step by step.

 

Which option would you recommend? I will go with what you think will be the best solution. Buying the parts is not an issue.

[Tony Brooks]

For simplicity I would go for a VSR. Not necessarily the one I linked to. There are other makes with a SLIGHTLY lower maximum current but as long as you wire as we advise it should not be am issue.

 

The VSR will have 6mm stud terminals plus (probably) a black flying lead. The wiring diagram that comes with it will tell you to connect a particular terminal to the engine battery. That is fine for a car but boats are different. This terminal might be referred to as something like the sense terminal. In our case it will be connected to the domestic battery.

 

In preparation for fitting the VSR.

 

1. Try to manually & visibly trace the two red wires you pulled off and also the other red that stayed on the relay. The hope is that one will go to the engine battery and one the hedonistic battery positives.

 

2. If you can not  so trace the  wires do the tests on each red wire that WotEver asked for. That is test for volts between  either battery negative (assuming they are still linked) and each red wire in turn. I hope one will read domestic battery voltage and one engine battery voltage. If so mark them as such.

 

3. If neither can be manually, visibly or electrically traced as above then we will have to provide two new thick wires for the VSR.

 

4. Now with the meter connected to the engine battery positive test to both black wires. The hope is that on or both will show engine battery voltage. This tells us it is a negative cable. mark one that shows engine battery voltage as NEGATIVE. These wires will connect to the VSR.

 

6. If you can not identify  red wires connected to the engine or domestic battery positives or the negative wire come back and tell us so we can tell you to make up leads and how to connect them.

 

7. Any other cable can have their terminals insulated and for now the cables bent back and taped neatly to the wiring loom/harness or some adjacent wires. These will eventually have to be removed but we do not want to do that before we are sure they are truly redundant.

 

8. When the relay comes fit the two thick wires to the studs EXACTLY as the instructions say leaving the alternator  B+ wire(s) on the engine battery. Then connect the  negative. Run the engine and test the voltage on the batteries, both should have similar voltages.

 

9 If both batteries show similar voltages stop the engine and move the alternator B+ wire(s) to the domestic bank. Swap the two red wires over on the back of the relay. Screw the VSR into position and run the  engine for two hours or sol hours at (say) 1500 RPM to see if the domestic batteries will accept a charge. If not fit your new one and make sure that is being charged.

 

10. The next step is to sort out the charge warning lamp but lets get the VSR working first.

 

 

I think one of the red wires is undersized so it may be a good idea to replace it with a thicker one when you connect the relay but its up to you. You may want to make sure everything works first.

 

 

[Erik.narrowboat]

I just tried tracing the wires from the relay and subsequently measuring if there is any current on them.

 

Tracing:

Pin 2: to engine

Pin 5: to cupboard, where it meets starter battery positive (first photo, the lower bolt has two thick red wires, one is coming from on 5, the other from starter battery positive)

Pin 1: to cupboard, from there to ignition panel. A lot of wires are taped together so it's impossible to trace further

Pin 3: to cupboard, see second photo. It sits on the screw second from the bottom, on the left

Pin 4: I can't tell where it goes.

 

I then went on to measure with the voltmeter with ignition on but engine not running. Negative wire on the engine, positive on the relay:

Pin 1: 3.8v

Pin 2: 0

Pin 3: 3.8v

Pin 4: battery voltage (of starter battery)

Pin 5: battery voltage (of starter battery)

 

 

Negative wire on starter negative, positive on the relay:

Pin 1: 3.8v

Pin 2: 0

Pin 3: 3.8v

Pin 4: battery voltage (of starter battery)

Pin 5: battery voltage (of starter battery)

 

Negative wire on domestic negative, positive on the relay:

Pin 1: 0

Pin 2: 0

Pin 3: 0

Pin 4: 0

Pin 5: 0

 

Should I repeat the test with the engine running?

[WotEver]

I think we’ve now found why the domestics aren’t working. You have no connection from the domestic battery negative to the starter battery negative. Fit a fat wire between them (BSS says it must be at least 25mm²) and then start the engine. I suspect everything will spring into life. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

The round thing in photo one with the two studs on it is almost certainly the master switch for one battery. As the red wires indicate positive I don't know which one but I suspect engine. Being in what looks like the positive lead there should, and as far as the BSS is concerned must, be another for the engine battery.

 

I agree with WotEver, fit a heft battery cable between engine and domestic battery negatives and with a  bit of luck it will charge both banks BUT that still leaves the charge warning lamp to sort out and where the alternator D+ is getting an ignition feed from.

 

The second photo is of a combined positive and negative low current bus bar/ junction box. With all those negative wires I suspect its for domestic circuits with most of the positives being fed from a fuse box somewhere.

 

I have made several comments bout the engine and domestic battery negatives still being linked. The fact they seem not to be means that unless you unlinked them your electrician seemed to have ignored one of the very basic first checks.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

I wonder if the domestic isolator is in the negative and is turned off/faulty?

[Tony Brooks]

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

I wonder if the domestic isolator is in the negative and is turned off/faulty?

I also wondered it there is one and if the boat is a part way conversion from a single bank system.

 

I just wish the OP had seen his way clear to move the boat out of London to  somewhere with better access.

[Neil Smith]

if you are still having problems pm me and I will give you the no of the electrician that wired my boat, he does a lot of work on boats in London and is not a rip off merchant.

 

Neil

[bizzard]

One of the red cables in the first picture attached to that isolator switch is hanging on by the skin of its teeth, may be even broken. And another on the same terminal at the back looks like its been getting too hot as its insulation is shrivelled up and judging by the green colour on the first cable I mentioned  could be a bad dry solder joint, or its flux that wasn't cleaned off. In fact the three cables connectors on that terminal all look in trouble to me.

Edited August 30, 2018 by bizzard

[Erik.narrowboat]

17 hours ago, WotEver said:

I think we’ve now found why the domestics aren’t working. You have no connection from the domestic battery negative to the starter battery negative. Fit a fat wire between them (BSS says it must be at least 25mm²) and then start the engine. I suspect everything will spring into life. 

 

That is correct. Just wondering, did you conclude this from the test or from the photos?

[Erik.narrowboat]

17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The round thing in photo one with the two studs on it is almost certainly the master switch for one battery. As the red wires indicate positive I don't know which one but I suspect engine. Being in what looks like the positive lead there should, and as far as the BSS is concerned must, be another for the engine battery.

 

I agree with WotEver, fit a heft battery cable between engine and domestic battery negatives and with a  bit of luck it will charge both banks BUT that still leaves the charge warning lamp to sort out and where the alternator D+ is getting an ignition feed from.

 

The second photo is of a combined positive and negative low current bus bar/ junction box. With all those negative wires I suspect its for domestic circuits with most of the positives being fed from a fuse box somewhere.

 

I have made several comments bout the engine and domestic battery negatives still being linked. The fact they seem not to be means that unless you unlinked them your electrician seemed to have ignored one of the very basic first checks.

Yes, it is the master switch for the engine battery. There is another one right above for the domestic batteries. I had hoped to make better photos and sketch a diagram of the connections but inside the cupboard it was already dark and hard to see anything. I'll try doing it tonight or otherwise on the weekend when I'll have more daylight hours.

 

The bus bar/junction box seems indeed to be for the domestic circuits as they all come from that side.

 

The batteries weren't linked previously and the electricians didn't say anything. I'm afraid I have misinterpreted them being linked as being linked to a negative, not to each other necessarily. I will link them and see measure again voltages on the relay. Are there any other tests that I should repeat? I'll read through the instructions as well when I'm home to see if I see any.

[Tony Brooks]

27 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Yes, it is the master switch for the engine battery. There is another one right above for the domestic batteries. I had hoped to make better photos and sketch a diagram of the connections but inside the cupboard it was already dark and hard to see anything. I'll try doing it tonight or otherwise on the weekend when I'll have more daylight hours.

 

The bus bar/junction box seems indeed to be for the domestic circuits as they all come from that side.

 

The batteries weren't linked previously and the electricians didn't say anything. I'm afraid I have misinterpreted them being linked as being linked to a negative, not to each other necessarily. I will link them and see measure again voltages on the relay. Are there any other tests that I should repeat? I'll read through the instructions as well when I'm home to see if I see any.

I don't think so at this stage. As I see it the priorities are in order:

 

1. Get both batteries charging an charged up.

 

2. Sort out the charge warning lamp and ideally a heater plug warning lamp.

Are there any other tests that I should repeat?

 

3. Test for a permanent drain on the domestic bank in some way.

 

4. Test all the circuits on the boat and make sure they all work.

 

5. Tidy up the wiring.

 

6. Retest the circuits in case the tidying has broken something.

 

If you think differently just say so.

 

I am concerned about the black wire on pin 4 or the relay because if it is a negative it will cause a dead short when/if that relay energises. It might be a good idea to pull it off and insulate it for now. A dead short there would either burn the relay contacts or cause the black wire to overheat & possibly burn.

 

[Erik.narrowboat]

I will connect the negatives poles of the domestic and engine battery then and continue with the steps you described in your post on  Tuesday at 21:11

 

I will also insulate the black wire as you said.

 

I am happy to follow the above order.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

That is correct. Just wondering, did you conclude this from the test or from the photos?

The test. Measuring voltage from the engine battery negative or from the domestic negative should be identical. 

[bizzard]

I would also prioritise those three cable connectore on the isolator switch that I mentioned, especially the one hanging by the skin of its teeth, it looks bust. Could be the root of all your trouble.

[Erik.narrowboat]

3 hours ago, bizzard said:

I would also prioritise those three cable connectore on the isolator switch that I mentioned, especially the one hanging by the skin of its teeth, it looks bust. Could be the root of all your trouble.

That is definitely a good point. I am planning to buy the wires that Tony described and will also try and replace these. I reckon if I replace them with wires of the same thickness and colour it should be no problem?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

That is definitely a good point. I am planning to buy the wires that Tony described and will also try and replace these. I reckon if I replace them with wires of the same thickness and colour it should be no problem?

Apart from the battery negative lead to connect the two banks I would not buy anything until you know what is needed. I have concerns that some of the thicker red wires look as if they may be mains charging or supply to something wires look a  bit undersized but who knows. Just to add to such problems you boat is probably wired in "standard" PVC insulated cables where as modern cables have thinner insulation so look thinner. Its the conductor number & size that is important.

 

The type of terminals on the cable Bizzard is concerned about will need a  different and much more expensive crimper unless you pay someone to crimp the terminals away from the boat..

[bizzard]

As TB says you'll need a hefty crimper or the skill of soldering to attach new terminals onto those cables.  A temporary makeshift job can be done if there's enough free cable is to pare back the insulation y about 2 to 3 inches, twist the strands by hand and then form into a ring-eye. Remove the terminal nut and the topmost cable terminal and place the ringed cables over the stud, then a washer and finally replacing that outer terminal and tighten nut to trap and squeeze the ringed ones to ensure a good connection. If you only do the really tatty one that looks almost busted would be something.  Incidentally do you know where that particular cable goes to?

Edited August 30, 2018 by bizzard

[Erik.narrowboat]

I have connected the engine battery negative to the domestic battery negative. I measured again the terminals in the relay.

 

Voltmeter negative on engine battery negative:

Pin 1: 0.6v

Pin 2: 0v

Pin 3: 0.6v

Pin 4: 0v

Pin 5: battery voltage (12.6v)

 

Voltmeter negative on domestic battery negative:

Pin 1: 0.6v

Pin 2: 0v

Pin 3: 0.6v

Pin 4: 0v

Pin 5: battery voltage (12.6v)

 

This is without the ignition or engine on.

 

I also insulated the wire that was on terminal 4.

 

I drew a (clumsy) diagram of the connections. Can draw a cleaner version on the weekend.

In the diagram on the bottom from left to right (in black) you see the engine with the starter motor, engine battery, domestic battery, inverter/charger (see first photo), bus bar (second photo).

From left to right in red you see the starter motor, starter battery main switch, domestic battery main switch and a large button which I'm not entirely sure of what its function is (third photo).

On the top, what I named switchboard is the panel with the warning lights and ignition.

 

 

 

I hope this makes any sense. I will draw a more near version when I have time. Perhaps there are more connections to investigate and include.

 

Tony, please let me know if you want me to send you the photos by email as well 

[Tony Brooks]

OK, it would help it you could add the alternator to the diagram. I am particularly interested in where the two thicker red wires go.

 

1. Its not an inverter charger, its just a charger.

 

2. The thing I think you call  a push button with the key in it is a source selection/master switch that is used to connect the engine battery, the domestic battery, or both to a common point. It also turns off so nothing is connected to the common point.

 

It is wired to switch the negatives and probably selects between the domestic battery being connected to the battery charger, the domestic system, both at once, or turned off.

 

I can see why this may have been done but in my view its unconventional and may be a hangover from the distant past when that item was the master switch but has been re purposed.

 

3. According to your diagram IF the relay id energise it would cause a dead short because one main large blade seems to be connected to positive and the other to negative.

 

4. There is still no indication of how the relay gets energised when the alternator is charging although the black wire from the domestic bus bar MIGHT  be involved but if so it should not be black.

 

5. There is still the question of where and how the supply to D+ on the alternator comes from without a warning lamp.

 

I am sorry but this has complicated things, especially the relay wiring. My view is that it may well be best to start again as far as the relay, the "button" switch, and the warning lamp is concerned BUT I would like WotEver's and Bizzard's views on that because they have been trying to help as well.

 

This is what I would suggest:

 

The "push button" switch be got rid of with the negative from the charger running straight to the domestic battery and a new wire large wire running from domestic batter negative to the bus bar with all the screws on it but make absolutely sure you reconnect on the negative side of the bus bar.

 

All connections be removed form the relay and insulated.

 

The warning lamp be replaced and new wiring (thin and not red or black) be run from ignition switch to lamp and lamp to alternator D+

 

A new VSR be wired.

 

If the warning lamp, alternator and battery charging all work then the rest of the systems tested  and if they all work the wires removed from the alternator and relay be either taken out of the boat or cut back to the harness and insulated.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

There are so many tatty, poorly terminated and sometimes unknown cables around that I’d start by remaking the poor terminations at that isolator and removing all the wires from the relay and taping up their ends (after labelling where they were connected). Then start the engine and see if the alternator is still charging the engine battery. Assuming it is I’d then wire in a new D+ warning lamp feed as Tony B suggests. Check it all still works. Once that’s done I’d fit a VSR. 

 

When all is working I’d move the alternator output to the domestic bank and strip out all of the disconnected taped up wires. 

[Erik.narrowboat]

Thanks for the feedback on the diagram and photos. Tomorrow I will double check what I have drawn (though I have been careful to follow the wires) and add the alternator.

 

The source/selection master switch may be there because the boat used to have a shoreline? Does that make sense?

 

Regarding the relay being connected to a positive and a negative, what should it be? Only negatives, or only positives?

 

If I were to replace the thick wires I would have to get the tools or help from someone to do that.

 

Do you have any recommendations on where I could buy tools and wire? I went to a hardware store yesterday but they had a limited selection of wire.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

46 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Thanks for the feedback on the diagram and photos. Tomorrow I will double check what I have drawn (though I have been careful to follow the wires) and add the alternator.

 

The source/selection master switch may be there because the boat used to have a shoreline? Does that make sense?

 

Regarding the relay being connected to a positive and a negative, what should it be? Only negatives, or only positives?

 

If I were to replace the thick wires I would have to get the tools or help from someone to do that.

 

Do you have any recommendations on where I could buy tools and wire? I went to a hardware store yesterday but they had a limited selection of wire.

 

 

 

1. The switch is in my view just a left over and it is not uncommon to find this sort of thing on old boats. I has nothing to do with a shoreline that I can think of.

 

2. The really needs disconnecting & ignoring. Insulate and tape back the  wires that are on it for now.

 

3. A decent boatyard like Uxbridge Boat Centre or a local car electrical specialist may be able to supply the cables and terminals you need and crimp the heavy duty terminals for you. Halfords can probably supply some cable in expensive small packages. A motor factors in full drums or Vehicle Electrical Services what you need by main order. There are other online suppliers.

 

A crimper to self crimp the heave terminals is likely to cost  around £80. Somewhere on the forum there is instructions for modifying a nut splitter to use as a crimper for battery cable sized terminals.

 

WARNING - Any cable you buy from hardware shop is likely to be domestic (house) wiring cable and is far from suitable for use on a boat. You need multi-strand cable like that used on cars etc.

[Boater Sam]

I'm in admiration of those helping here, such patience should be rewarded. Greenies all round.