Cost of rewiring

[Erik.narrowboat]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Nothing can be certain until tested, especially in view of what you have been told about the boat but from the photo it LOOKS a sif the connections are as below. However it seems some cable are probably thicker then the strictly need to be so that makes identifying circuits difficult but really ticker is better.

 

Red cable & all over yellow insulation on terminal - live feed from battery, may be from starter motor main positive terminal on solenoid. Should be at battery voltage all the time the master switch is turned on.

 

Hard to see cable colour with large blade & yellow insulated terminal crimp - probably to glow plugs. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the glow plug position.

 

What looks like a black cable with exposed conductors in a blue crimp insulation - to single terminal on starter solenoid. This one operates the starter. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the start position.

 

The twinned 6mm blades with two red wires in blue insulated terminals one of  which lead to a connector block with more wires attached - feed to all the instruments and warning lamps - the auxiliary feed. Normally at battery voltage at all key positions except off.

So make sure this is as I say be testing and then ensure the charge warning lamp gets its live feed from here.

Just to make sure I am doing it right, what does glow plug position and start position mean? I can only rotate the key all the way to start the engine, there is no in between position in which the key is fixed.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Just to make sure I am doing it right, what does glow plug position and start position mean? I can only rotate the key all the way to start the engine, there is no in between position in which the key is fixed.

In that case do you have a push button marked ‘Glow Plugs’?

[Erik.narrowboat]

No

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Just to make sure I am doing it right, what does glow plug position and start position mean? I can only rotate the key all the way to start the engine, there is no in between position in which the key is fixed.

 

The switch in the photo is a standard "Lucas" four position switch. and it should have four distinctive positions although two are only discernible by the return spring pressure.

 

Assuming the switch is still tight in the panel and the off position is vertical.

 

Position 1 = off, usually with the switch slot vertical.

 

Position 2 is about 25 degree turn clockwise. If you let go of the key it should stay in that position and the warning lamps and instrument should light up. This is the RUN or Ignition on position (not that you have ignition as such on a disease).

 

Position 3 is about another clockwise turn of (say) 25 degrees but against a spring, when you get to the correct position you should feel the spring pressure in crease a little AND that broken warning light may well have come on at one time. This is the position you hold for 30 seconds when cold starting. If you let go the key should spring back to the run position, not off.

 

Position 4. If you turn the key again clockwise until it stops turning and against a slightly stronger spring then the starter will energise. This is the START position and the glow plugs may well stay energised as will the warning lights etc. EXCEPT they may dim as the starter works. If you let go the switch will jump back to the run position.

 

There is absolutely NO argument about this although with age the spring strength tends to weaken. I suspect you are not turning the key with enough feel and finesse.

 

IF the wires are on the wrong switch terminals you can get all sorts of odd switching sequences but the  switch will still stay in position 2 and position 3 and 4 will be against spring pressure. Looking at your photo I do not think the switch is incorrectly wired butto be 100 sure the voltmeter needs to be used and then the wires from each terminal traced..

 

 

57 minutes ago, WotEver said:

In that case do you have a push button marked ‘Glow Plugs’?

Have a look at the photo Tony. If it was one of that type of switch it would only have a single "input" terminal and a twinned  output terminal.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Have a look at the photo Tony. If it was one of that type of switch it would only have a single "input" terminal and a twinned  output terminal.

Yes, and a separate ‘start’ button too. I wasn’t thinking. 

[Tony Brooks]

PS Eric

 

If the switch has lost all its spring force AND will not stay in the run position then you will eventually need a new one but I would suggest that I give you slightly different instructions that will allow you to "bodge" your way through the tests and hopefully locate the fault. Then you can decide what to renew and when to do it.

 

Let us know how you get on

[Erik.narrowboat]

48 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The switch in the photo is a standard "Lucas" four position switch. and it should have four distinctive positions although two are only discernible by the return spring pressure.

 

Assuming the switch is still tight in the panel and the off position is vertical.

 

Position 1 = off, usually with the switch slot vertical.

 

Position 2 is about 25 degree turn clockwise. If you let go of the key it should stay in that position and the warning lamps and instrument should light up. This is the RUN or Ignition on position (not that you have ignition as such on a disease).

 

Position 3 is about another clockwise turn of (say) 25 degrees but against a spring, when you get to the correct position you should feel the spring pressure in crease a little AND that broken warning light may well have come on at one time. This is the position you hold for 30 seconds when cold starting. If you let go the key should spring back to the run position, not off.

 

Position 4. If you turn the key again clockwise until it stops turning and against a slightly stronger spring then the starter will energise. This is the START position and the glow plugs may well stay energised as will the warning lights etc. EXCEPT they may dim as the starter works. If you let go the switch will jump back to the run position.

 

There is absolutely NO argument about this although with age the spring strength tends to weaken. I suspect you are not turning the key with enough feel and finesse.

 

IF the wires are on the wrong switch terminals you can get all sorts of odd switching sequences but the  switch will still stay in position 2 and position 3 and 4 will be against spring pressure. Looking at your photo I do not think the switch is incorrectly wired butto be 100 sure the voltmeter needs to be used and then the wires from each terminal traced..

 

Yes, there seem to be indeed 4 different position.

Position 1: off

Position 2: with the key turned only about 1/8th but status in position. The pool temperature meter comes on.

Position 3: again just about 1/8th. The key guess back to the run position when let go. No lights.

Position 4: engine starts. No lights.

 

I was indeed not doing it with enough finesse, although I think the Sirius are probably quite worn as position 3 and 4 are very hard to distinguish.

 

 

[Erik.narrowboat]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Nothing can be certain until tested, especially in view of what you have been told about the boat but from the photo it LOOKS a sif the connections are as below. However it seems some cable are probably thicker then the strictly need to be so that makes identifying circuits difficult but really ticker is better.

 

Red cable & all over yellow insulation on terminal - live feed from battery, may be from starter motor main positive terminal on solenoid. Should be at battery voltage all the time the master switch is turned on.

 

Hard to see cable colour with large blade & yellow insulated terminal crimp - probably to glow plugs. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the glow plug position.

 

What looks like a black cable with exposed conductors in a blue crimp insulation - to single terminal on starter solenoid. This one operates the starter. Only at battery voltage when the key is in the start position.

 

The twinned 6mm blades with two red wires in blue insulated terminals one of  which lead to a connector block with more wires attached - feed to all the instruments and warning lamps - the auxiliary feed. Normally at battery voltage at all key positions except off.

So make sure this is as I say be testing and then ensure the charge warning lamp gets its live feed from here.

There is indeed only one cable that is at battery voltage ah the time. I can't test the different key position as I can't hold the wires of the voltmeter in position while turning the key. I reckon I should but clamps? This also prevents me from testing the alternator with the extra but of wire as I would have to have the voltmeter stay connected to the battery while manually holding the wire.

 

[Erik.narrowboat]

On 22/08/2018 at 15:12, Tony Brooks said:

 

Now, with the ignition switch on touch the meter pos. to the wire that is NOT blue on the back of the warning lamp. It should read battery voltage. If not connect a new length of cable from the terminal you noted above and the bulb holder .

 

Next inspect the bulb to make sure its not blown and put back into the holder (or swap it for the oil waning lamp holder for now).

 

If the bulb is OK but still not lighting p then put the meter positive on the side of the bulb holder with the blue wire on it. The meter should read about 12V. If not its a blown bulb or a faulty bulb older.

 

If it does read 12V it means the wire between bulb and alternator is open circuited so:

 

There are a black and a red wire on the back of the warning light. Both give battery voltage. The black wire is sitting in the female blade with another black wire that connects to the engine temperature meter. I did not want to take out the wire and replace it with a new one connecting to the D+ in the alternator before knowing what to do with that other wire so haven't proceeded with that step yet.

 

I apologize for jumping back and forth, I think I need to get clamps so I can complete the missing steps before moving on.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Position 2: with the key turned only about 1/8th but status in position. The pool temperature meter comes on.

Maybe the pool thermostat is not working and the heater is running continuously and flattening the batteries.

 

You may call it a 'pool' , most of us call it the 'Canal'.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Erik.narrowboat]

Sorry, I'm writing all of this from my phone. It's a but hard sometimes to spot mistakes of the post is very long.

It was meant to say engine/oil temperature. If I'm correct that's what it is measuring.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Sorry, I'm writing all of this from my phone. It's a but hard sometimes to spot mistakes of the post is very long.

It was meant to say engine/oil temperature. If I'm correct that's what it is measuring.

No problem - just a light hearted 'ribbing' - we all suffer from "Auto Correct" (or Auto-Reject)

[LadyG]

hijacking this thread : I am taking my van off the road, it has a history of draining the battery intermittently overnight, , and I would like to disconnect it, I assume there is something shorting out, do I disconnect one or both terminals? 

[George and Dragon]

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

hijacking this thread : I am taking my van off the road, it has a history of draining the battery intermittently overnight, , and I would like to disconnect it, I assume there is something shorting out, do I disconnect one or both terminals? 

I think you only need to disconnect the positive terminal. But beware any accessories that require a constant feed (radios are the most common but there may be others); check that you will be able to get them working again.

[bizzard]

21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

hijacking this thread : I am taking my van off the road, it has a history of draining the battery intermittently overnight, , and I would like to disconnect it, I assume there is something shorting out, do I disconnect one or both terminals? 

I doubt its something shorting, or it would probably go up in flames. Something is on draining the battery. Turn everything off.  Remove a battery terminal and put a volt meter between the clamp and the post, it should read zero or almost. If somethings on it will read 12v or thereabouts, pull fuses until the meter reads zero, something on that circuit is on and draining the battery. 

[LadyG]

13 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

I think you only need to disconnect the positive terminal. But beware any accessories that require a constant feed (radios are the most common but there may be others); check that you will be able to get them working again.

yep, radio has long been disconnected and all internal light bulbs removed, but still can't identify the problem, its ongoing over two years and numerous batteries and an alternator etc etc. Garage has admitted defeat, and they are pretty good, I assume they have done as you suggested, I have to get rid of the damn thing. Intermittent: it sometimes works for a few weeks then its flat, sometimes jump starts easily, sometimes not.  Its not helped by lack of use. I now let it idle an hour a day. Its also got a very big Bosch battery

Edited August 23, 2018 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

yep, radio has long been disconnected and all internal light bulbs removed, but still can't identify the problem, its ongoing over two years and numerous batteries and an alternator etc etc. Garage has admitted defeat, and they are pretty good, I have to get rid of the dam thing. 

Alarm ?

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

yep, radio has long been disconnected and all internal light bulbs removed, but still can't identify the problem, its ongoing over two years and numerous batteries and an alternator etc etc. Garage has admitted defeat, and they are pretty good, I have to get rid of the dam thing. 

Disconnect the positive lead. Connect a multimeter (not clamp type) set to D.C. current, wired in series with the positive lead and the battery post. Note the current draw. Pull fuses one at a time until current draw disappears. See what that fuse feeds. 

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Alarm ?

alarm lol, it does not even have central locking or heating, its a disaster, apart from the engine!

The garage  has disconnected everything it can, certain things can't be disconnected apparently. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by LadyG

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, LadyG said:

alarm lol, it does not even have central locking or heating, its a disaster, apart from the engine!

The garage  has disconnected everything it can, certain things can't be disconnected apparently. 

 

Surely everything gets disconnected when the battery goes flat.

 

A frequent suspect in these cases is the interior light and it's switches. Turn the interior light completely off (or remove the bulb) and see if the battery still goes flat.

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, LadyG said:

alarm lol, it does not even have central locking or heating, its a disaster, apart from the engine!

The garage  has disconnected everything it can, certain things can't be disconnected apparently. 

Yes, like the engine control computer and for many years those computers have a self updating "map" to say when various things need to be done in the engine cycle for optimum performance. This normally needs a permeation feed so that information may be lost when you disconnect the battery and it may run like a pig when reconnected for the first few miles as it resets itself. However the permeate draw is probably less that the self discharge rate of the battery.

 

Personally i would disconnect the negative because it is far harder to cause a short circuit with your tools that way. There are rare occasions on boats where doing that might cause damage but on a single battery vehicle it is fine.

[bizzard]

A battery post mounted isolator switch could be fitted, quicker than disconnecting a terminal every time.

[LadyG]

35 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A battery post mounted isolator switch could be fitted, quicker than disconnecting a terminal every time.

I did suggest something like that to the garage, but he suggested it was not the solution. We have had this problem for two years, five batteries, two alternators, two motherboards and extended periods off road in garage [endeavouring to keeping costs to a minimum, my van is not prioritised] . 

I will put van back on the road if I get some work for it, but best move is to sell it, it keeps going if it gets a nice run every day. Other than that it will get an hour or two every week.

Edited August 24, 2018 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

There is indeed only one cable that is at battery voltage ah the time. I can't test the different key position as I can't hold the wires of the voltmeter in position while turning the key. I reckon I should but clamps? This also prevents me from testing the alternator with the extra but of wire as I would have to have the voltmeter stay connected to the battery while manually holding the wire.

 

 

12 hours ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

There are a black and a red wire on the back of the warning light. Both give battery voltage. The black wire is sitting in the female blade with another black wire that connects to the engine temperature meter. I did not want to take out the wire and replace it with a new one connecting to the D+ in the alternator before knowing what to do with that other wire so haven't proceeded with that step yet.

 

I apologize for jumping back and forth, I think I need to get clamps so I can complete the missing steps before moving on.

 

The temperature gauge is the engine coolant temperature, oil temperature is not normally measure on inland boats.

 

The meter lead pins can usually be pushed into the gap formed by the lead battery post, the ends of the clamp and the clamp bolt to  measure battery voltage "hands free" but may lose their connection with vibration. You can also buy small crocodile clips from car part shops and probably Halfords, often as a pair in a blister pack from a stand marked Pearly Wot Nots. The end that normally crimps around the cable insulation can be squeezed up so the meter cable pin can be pushed into it. Probably only cost a pound or two.

 

Fitting the length of cable to the battery can be done by loosening the clamp bolt, twisting the cable conductors behind it and re-tightening the nut.. Take great care not to allow the other end of the cable to touch any metal because if it did it may well catch fire.

 

You do not say if the 12V on the  back of the bulb holder goes to zero when you turn the ignition off, I guess it does and so is as expected.

 

From the photo the red wire is probably coming straight from the run position terminal of the switch Please trace it and check. If it does then only one wire should be on the other terminal and it SHOULD be blue or brown as shown at the alternator end. It certainly should not link to another gauge or lamp. Black cables are usually negatives although on old boats and engines from non-UK sources you can not be sure This suggests to me the lamp is NOT the charge warning lamp and may be the remains of  a glow plug warning lamp BUT if the black wires are supposed to be negatives then the bulb would be alight all the time the ignition is on so more is going on here. Do NOT go pulling wires off terminals unless I tell you to but try to draw a diagram of where they come from and go to and what is linked to what.

 

Each time I go back to look at your photos I tend to lose half an hour's worth of typing..

 

The test involving the pin and length of wire was intended to avoid telling you to rewire the warning lamp circuit without proving it needed doing but without it perhaps the only way forward is to do it.

 

As I said there is something illogical about the lamp wiring at present so:

 

1. Make absolutely sure the red wire comes from the switch. If you cant trace the wire then:

a. pull the terminal off.

b. connect meter between the female blade connector and any clean metal. with the meter off and then on. If the meter shows zero when the switch is off and battery voltage when the switch is on then you have proved that wire comes from the correct terminal of the switch. Replace cable onto the terminal.

 

2. Remove the bulb and the black wire. Insulate the black wire . With the switch on  measure the voltage on the bulb holder terminal. It should read zero - if it reads battery voltage you need a new lamp.

 

3. With the switch on connect the lamp terminal that used to have the black wire to it to any clean metal or battery negative. The bulb should light up. If not then either the bulb has blown or the bulb holder has a fault (and the black wire is also at battery voltage - but ignore this for now).

 

4. If all those tests show OK then you need to rewire the warning lamp circuit BUT at the alternator end you have two cables in the one female blade connector. One runs to the blue split charge relay so look at the two small relay blades. One will have a blue or a brown wire on it. Which ever coloured wire it is then that same colour needs to be kept with your new cable when you crimp the terminal for the  D+ connection on the alternator (the small blade).

 

Run a new cable form the lamp terminal that used to have the black wire on it to the alternator D+. I use small zip-ties to keep such new cables close to the original wiring harness but you could use bands of insulating tape as its cheaper. Leave no more than about 6" between each band or zip-tie.

 

When you have done that the warning lamp should comer on when you turn the ignition on and then go out as you start and rev the engine. At that point the battery voltage should jump up. If so go back several pages and do the tests that see if the relay is working.

 

If the alternator will not charge then its probably faulty (but I think it probably will) and you would have found this out without the rewiring if you had found a way to do the tests as I detailed them.

 

 

If we get it charging and the relay works as it should then more work is required to sort out the instrument panel. Whilst I am happy to talk you through it I am not willing to do it if you find nit impossible to carry out certain test and then jump about other tests. you need to be logical and work carefully.

 

NOTE TO OTHER MEMBERS. please start new topics for other probes this pen needs to stay strictly on topic if I am to help him. I need to keep looking back at photos and extra stuff just gets in thew ay and causes me to lose text each time I look back.

 

 

 

PS - to other electrically savvy  members following this topic. I now  suspect he may have a faulty negative connection to the instrument panel that gives 12V on what look like taverna wires.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Sir Nibble]

12 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

I think you only need to disconnect the positive terminal. But beware any accessories that require a constant feed (radios are the most common but there may be others); check that you will be able to get them working again.

No! Disconnecting the positive is dangerous and bad practice. Disconnect negative, any test can be carried out as well there as the positive without the risk of a thousand amp flash.