Vetus Mitubish

[chopperit]

Hi Everyone 

Im new to the boating world Recently bought a 75 ft Narrow boat ,  the engine in the boat was damaged its called a Vetus i was told by the owner the engine over heated , the engine was installed at the end of 2016 and the boat had not seen much action as it had been moored  up in a marina , and nothing relay worked on the boat , everything was a botch job , the only good things about the boat  was the work  he had not done himself , anyway i contacted V you would of thought that the engine was still under warranty, they was having none of it they  told me it had been inspected by 3 of there engineers and the engine was trash   they had never see an engine overheated so badly , not sure what engine they were looking at  , i find this hard to believe because the sump had not been removed , the engine was still turning however it was not reaching TDC , at this  point i new the conrod was bent no big deal it happens with engines  nothing i can not fix ,  however i need a new crank shaft and conrod  when i striped the engine  it had taken in water in cylinder no one ,  its turned out a night mare to find parts for this engine i was quoted from diamond  over £7000 just for the crank  it clear to me that either V have the market stitched up or Mitsubishi do not want you to repair them , i say Mitsubishi because the engines used buy V are Mitsubishi plant engines they are used in diggers tractors and versus other plant equipment the engine is a k4d 4 stands for 4 cylinder , and all there engines are 3 and 4 cylinders, they are  all Mitsubishi blocks with a few fancy parts added with the name V  but the engine is made by Mitsubishi , and its bomb proof they are truly a fab block , small hp but plenty of guts , anyway   cut a long story short i now have the connection for any parts relating to these engines if fact i bought all the parts i needed including a full engine gasket kits new rings and shells oil seals everything i needed for just short of £1500 , much better than the £7000 i was quoted for the crank,  the old one is now in Dave Rushtons machine shop in Stoke  ,  to old boys and believe me what they don,t know about engines is not worth knowing , glad to say my old crank didn't go to waste its now there new door stopper , i guess the morels of the story is don,t take no for an answer , its not over till the fat lady sings .

[Tony Brooks]

Welcome to the club for those who find Vetus have some very odd ideas about pricing. Please you got it sorted for a more sensible amount.

 

You seem to have a good idea of what you  about but  be aware that there are a fair few narrowboats fitted with undersized skin tanks. They work OKish while pottering along canals but as soon as you ask the engine to work it overheats. You need about 1 sq ft of surface area on one side of the tank per four engine hp.

[WotEver]

DET are a good supplier of Mitsi parts but I don’t know how competitive their prices are. Obviously they’ll be cheaper than Vetus. 

https://webshop.det-mitsubishi.com/home/cnt/page/1

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

be aware that there are a fair few narrowboats fitted with undersized skin tanks.

A very good point to make, Tony. That could well have been the cause of the original overheat. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by WotEver
Missing I

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, chopperit said:

Hi Everyone 

Im new to the boating world Recently bought a 75 ft Narrow boat ,  the engine in the boat was damaged its called a Vetus i was told by the owner the engine over heated , the engine was installed at the end of 2016 and the boat had not seen much action as it had been moored  up in a marina , and nothing relay worked on the boat , everything was a botch job , the only good things about the boat  was the work  he had not done himself , anyway i contacted V you would of thought that the engine was still under warranty, they was having none of it they  told me it had been inspected by 3 of there engineers and the engine was trash   they had never see an engine overheated so badly , not sure what engine they were looking at  , i find this hard to believe because the sump had not been removed , the engine was still turning however it was not reaching TDC , at this  point i new the conrod was bent no big deal it happens with engines  nothing i can not fix ,  however i need a new crank shaft and conrod  when i striped the engine  it had taken in water in cylinder no one ,  its turned out a night mare to find parts for this engine i was quoted from diamond  over £7000 just for the crank  it clear to me that either V have the market stitched up or Mitsubishi do not want you to repair them , i say Mitsubishi because the engines used buy V are Mitsubishi plant engines they are used in diggers tractors and versus other plant equipment the engine is a k4d 4 stands for 4 cylinder , and all there engines are 3 and 4 cylinders, they are  all Mitsubishi blocks with a few fancy parts added with the name V  but the engine is made by Mitsubishi , and its bomb proof they are truly a fab block , small hp but plenty of guts , anyway   cut a long story short i now have the connection for any parts relating to these engines if fact i bought all the parts i needed including a full engine gasket kits new rings and shells oil seals everything i needed for just short of £1500 , much better than the £7000 i was quoted for the crank,  the old one is now in Dave Rushtons machine shop in Stoke  ,  to old boys and believe me what they don,t know about engines is not worth knowing , glad to say my old crank didn't go to waste its now there new door stopper , i guess the morels of the story is don,t take no for an answer , its not over till the fat lady sings .

I think by your own efforts you have found out what you would have been told if you had asked here.

 

Everyone with a Vetus engine suffers the same pricing problems and have a list of alternative part numbers and sources of supply.

Maybe you would like to post the alternative supplier name so it can be added to 'the lists'

 

Good luck with the re-build.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[chopperit]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Welcome to the club for those who find Vetus have some very odd ideas about pricing. Please you got it sorted for a more sensible amount.

 

You seem to have a good idea of what you  about but  be aware that there are a fair few narrowboats fitted with undersized skin tanks. They work OKish while pottering along canals but as soon as you ask the engine to work it overheats. You need about 1 sq ft of surface area on one side of the tank per four engine hp.

 

[chopperit]

Hi Tony 

 

Thanks for the info , i can rebuild any engine but that to me what you have said  is pie in the sky can you explain please?

 

The engine in the boat was supplied by kings lock ,i would hope they would not of done what ford did to the Siera in saying that the engine is 30.9  42hp  with 3000 rpm , i dont thing its man enough for the river,  however i could bolt on a turbo or change the prop and blades , the over heating problem how that happened  we don,t relay know no alarm cut out weas fitted , this guy was pushing 80 an alarm or limp mode system should of been in place had this of been the case it would not of happen , in September of 2016 he shelled out nearly 9000 for the new engine and fit. 

The old boy  told me  that  someone came out  and took the injectors out  because the customer said the engine made a loud noise there is a bill for rebuilt injectors and for 3 new ones however this engine as only had one new injector , the price tag for that work was £750.00 Ive no idea why they would think it would be the injectors  were they thinking diesel knock could they not see the side of the block the paint discoloration that only happens  when a engine over heats ,  the conrod was bent a simple pressure test would done the job , blown  head gasket ,    water was in the sump me personally i don,t think anything was wrong with the injectors  , wrong guy for the job simple as that ,  anyway  they towed it in to kings lock and told the old boy it needed a bob tail and that he had one in the yard of another engine at a price tag of  £7000 the  old boy didn't  have the money so he was forced to sell the boat no option of repair , i think its wrong.

I,ve had the engine head re skimmed and check over , got new crank and rod and a full set of shells if i can do that  surely the dealer can do the same , of coarse they can or can they ?

 

i would  think hard before ever using one of these engines again , i was thinking about putting in a land  engine but i want to see how this works first ,

 

Regards 

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

39 minutes ago, chopperit said:

Thanks for the info , i can rebuild any engine but that to me what you have said  is pie in the sky can you explain please?

He simply meant that many narrowboats have a skin tank that has insufficient capacity to cool the engine when the engine is working hard, such as against the flow on a river. The rule of thumb is that the skin tank area should be at least 1ft² for each 4hp of the engine. So a 40hp engine should have at least 10ft² of skin tank area. 

Many (most?) don’t. 

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, chopperit said:

Hi Tony 

 

Thanks for the info , i can rebuild any engine but that to me what you have said  is pie in the sky can you explain please?

 

The engine in the boat was supplied by kings lock ,i would hope they would not of done what ford did to the Siera in saying that the engine is 30.9  42hp  with 3000 rpm , i dont thing its man enough for the river,  however i could bolt on a turbo or change the prop and blades , the over heating problem how that happened  we don,t relay know no alarm cut out weas fitted , this guy was pushing 80 an alarm or limp mode system should of been in place had this of been the case it would not of happen , in September of 2016 he shelled out nearly 9000 for the new engine and fit. 

The old boy  told me  that  someone came out  and took the injectors out  because the customer said the engine made a loud noise there is a bill for rebuilt injectors and for 3 new ones however this engine as only had one new injector , the price tag for that work was £750.00 Ive no idea why they would think it would be the injectors  were they thinking diesel knock could they not see the side of the block the paint discoloration that only happens  when a engine over heats ,  the conrod was bent a simple pressure test would done the job , blown  head gasket ,    water was in the sump me personally i don,t think anything was wrong with the injectors  , wrong guy for the job simple as that ,  anyway  they towed it in to kings lock and told the old boy it needed a bob tail and that he had one in the yard of another engine at a price tag of  £7000 the  old boy didn't  have the money so he was forced to sell the boat no option of repair , i think its wrong.

I,ve had the engine head re skimmed and check over , got new crank and rod and a full set of shells if i can do that  surely the dealer can do the same , of coarse they can or can they ?

 

i would  think hard before ever using one of these engines again , i was thinking about putting in a land  engine but i want to see how this works first ,

 

Regards 

 

 

 

 

Not sure what there is to explain apart from Vetus stuff and spares are ridiculously expensive, especially when the base engine is just another Japanese unit. People tend to learn that the hard way, after they have bought the boat/engine. Vetus made their name on lumpy waters and in my view have very little understanding of UK inland boating. They also try hard to make it easy for the boat builder by selling complete packages. I have no proof but I suspect at an excellent discount.

 

The other thing I tried to warn you about was the propensity for some hull builders to fit undersized skin tanks so they can never adequately cool the engine at higher powers & speeds. Note the other Tony's comment on this (WotEver).

 

Kings Lock are arguably the inland premier Vetus Agents. I very much doubt their agency agreement allows them to fit anything other than Vetus sourced parts to Vetus engines. The old boy, in common with so may, seems to have thought that only agents are to be trusted. I know there are some professional engineers on the forum who would have sorted the problem for far less cost. Welcome to the reality of "marine" pricing.

 

Unless you buy a Bukh all common inland and most sea engine are in fact "land" engines with the marinising bits bolted on. If you intend to marinise a "land" sourced engine be aware that apart form the obvious parts like the exhaust manifold many require a heavier flywheel or a bulk ring added because we expect then to drive in gear at idle.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[pearley]

Before selling up and becoming a CCer I applied for a job  with Vetus as a Technical Advisor. When they knew of my canal boating interest they said they assumed I knew the difference between raw water cooled and keel cooled. 

[chopperit]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

He simply meant that many narrowboats have a skin tank that has insufficient capacity to cool the engine when the engine is working hard, such as against the flow on a river. The rule of thumb is that the skin tank area should be at least 1ft² for each 4hp of the engine. So a 40hp engine should have at least 10ft² of skin tank area. 

Many (most?) don’t. 

 

OK I UNDER STAND THE COOLING TANKS NO PROBLEM THERE  PLENTY OF TANK SPACE , THE BOAT WAS PARKED UP WHEN THE ENGINE PACKED UP , BUT THANK FOR THE INFO ,

[chopperit]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not sure what there is to explain apart from Vetus stuff and spares are ridiculously expensive, especially when the base engine is just another Japanese unit. People tend to learn that the hard way, after they have bought the boat/engine. Vetus made their name on lumpy waters and in my view have very little understanding of UK inland boating. They also try hard to make it easy for the boat builder by selling complete packages. I have no proof but I suspect at an excellent discount.

 

The other thing I tried to warn you about was the propensity for some hull builders to fit undersized skin tanks so they can never adequately cool the engine at higher powers & speeds. Note the other Tony's comment on this (WotEver).

 

Kings Lock are arguably the inland premier Vetus Agents. I very much doubt their agency agreement allows them to fit anything other than Vetus sourced parts to Vetus engines. The old boy, in common with so may, seems to have thought that only agents are to be trusted. I know there are some professional engineers on the forum who would have sorted the problem for far less cost. Welcome to the reality of "marine" pricing.

 

Unless you buy a Bukh all common inland and most sea engine are in fact "land" engines with the marinising bits bolted on. If you intend to marinise a "land" sourced engine be aware that apart form the obvious parts like the exhaust manifold many require a heavier flywheel or a bulk ring added because we expect then to drive in gear at idle.

 

Thanks Tony i understand now , about the cooling thanks for the in-tell

Regards

 

 

 

 

[Mac of Cygnet]

Can I repeat Alan's request that you give us a link to your alternative Mitsubishi parts supplier, please?  Or even just tell us!

 

Mitsubishi/Vetus don't just do 3 & 4 cylinder engines, BTW.  Mine only has 2.

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Can I repeat Alan's request that you give us a link to your alternative Mitsubishi parts supplier, please?  Or even just tell us!

 

Mitsubishi/Vetus don't just do 3 & 4 cylinder engines, BTW.  Mine only has 2.

And I would in no way be surprised to find a huge Mitsubishi engine in a large commercial vessel but Vetus would not marinise those.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I have a  Mitsubishi K4E, installed 1994. and no hint of Vetus branding.  I have used Diamond Diesels for a couple of (minor) spare parts

[Boater Sam]

Later Thorneycrofts were Mitsubishi engines.

It is difficult to believe the price of Vetus spares, it must begin to create consumer resistance when it comes to replacement time.

[Tony Brooks]

The only reasonable explanation I can suggest is that Vetus work on the razor & inkjet printer model. Initially sell cheap, maybe at a loss, an recoup via spares etc. This is why I suspect boat builders get a massive discount for new installs. Then its too late for most owners.

[dor]

That's not yellow paint on the Vetus engines, it's gold leaf...

[Gareth E]

Another one to suffer from ridiculous Vetus spares prices. £92.50 for one set of piston rings, they are having a laugh. I had my work done at King's Lock. They accepted a head gasket that I found on Ebay, old stock, for 22.50 compared to the 80 odd quid of the Vetus one but when I suggested I supply the oil etc. they intimated I might want to pull my boat away rather than drive it. So, 30 quid for what, 2 litres of 'Vetus' oil.

 

I researched Mitsubishi parts and found Diamond Diesel and Real Diesels did them. They were a little cheaper, maybe 20 to 30 percent but still ridiculous prices.

 

I would never buy a Vetus engine, nor a boat that had one installed in it, and I spread the word. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

I would never buy a Vetus engine, nor a boat that had one installed in it, and I spread the word. 

I got a very polite ollicking from the ten editor when I tried to do that - I only said if the engine was pointed yellow would the questioner contact me.

[dor]

I am reasonably happy with my Vetus engine,  but would never buy Vetus parts.  Baldwins filters from inlinefilters, other parts from Mitsubishi suppliers, Alternator repaired by David Edge, relays from Halfords.  If I need help (which regrettably I do now) then my local excellent engineer is quite happy to supply or be given Mitsubishi parts.  All significantly cheaper than Vetus.     The base unit after all is a standard Mitsubishi unit, so no reason why that should not be reliable.

[Bod]

On 07/05/2018 at 12:14, Mac of Cygnet said:

Can I repeat Alan's request that you give us a link to your alternative Mitsubishi parts supplier, please?  Or even just tell us!

 

Mitsubishi/Vetus don't just do 3 & 4 cylinder engines, BTW.  Mine only has 2.

=1 from me, I to have a Vetus M414.

 

If you could post a picture or two of your engine and cooling tank, that would be useful.

For it to overheat, whilst stationary, then all may not be as it seems.  When it did overheat, which side of the boat was against the mooring, cooling tank side, or other side?

 

Bod

[chopperit]

Hi

 

Sorry but you miss understand when i made The remark about the k4d i was referring to that particular block and from what ive learnt and been told its only available in a 3/ 4  cylinders because the block comes as 3kd 4kd  they use the same crank, rods , pistons,  i may be wrong but ive not heard of a 2kd Mitsubishi block ,im sure Mitsubishi make 2 cylinder engine  its took me a very long time and a lot of research  to get my contact , My company import products from the USA ,so im looking into a possible business venture with this supplier. knowing what i do now   my friend is a mobile diesel fitter and an excellent engineer mechanic, if i do  deiced to progress with this venture we will only be supplying major engine parts , not consumables.

 

Regards

 

 

[chopperit]

All so the anything with the k4 or the k3 means its the same block  your k4e is the same bock as my k4d   k4c k4d k4e k4f all you the same block and water pump they are just difrent codes for the block ,  the name plate you get from vetus you wont math anything but your block as a engine code that you match up .

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Bod said:

=1 from me, I to have a Vetus M414.

 

If you could post a picture or two of your engine and cooling tank, that would be useful.

For it to overheat, whilst stationary, then all may not be as it seems.  When it did overheat, which side of the boat was against the mooring, cooling tank side, or other side?

 

Bod

Why would that make any significant difference? 

[chopperit]

19 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I have a  Mitsubishi K4E, installed 1994. and no hint of Vetus branding.  I have used Diamond Diesels for a couple of (minor) spare parts

that is probably because the were not around , all they have done is paint it yellow but a few bits on and call it a vetus  they don,t manufacturer and they or fix engines you could buy engines from land rover paint them pink and do the same , they are just over priced and trying to pull the wool over our eyes  , your block is the same as mine , they have used the k4 for years on plant equipment , and tractors 

 

Regards