March of the Widebeams

[Ronaldo47]

That brings to mind the scene in  "Yes, Minister" where Humphrey explains to Bernard how, depending on the answer you wanted, you could ask sequences of questions to lead people into either supporting or not supporting the idea of re-introducing National Service.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

. But for sure, most of them spend most of their time moored, whether there's anyone living on board or not. If they're moored, they're not cruising.

Not most but all boats  spend more time moored compared to the time spent cruising.

[Phoenix_V]

First they came for the Continuous Moorers, and I approved.

 

Then they came for the Continuous Cruisers, and I didnt care.

 

Then they came for the wide beams and I didnt care

 

Then they came for the Home Moorers, and there was nothing we could do about it.

 

with apologies to Martin Niemöller · https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

[blackrose]

So many people on this forum and out there on the waterways seem to love being at each others' throats.

 

Instead of sticking together they condemn people who have different types of boats or different boating lifestyles. The concept of divide & rule was certainly not lost on the canal boating "community". Shame on [some of] you.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

So many people on this forum and out there on the waterways seem to love being at each others' throats.

 

Instead of sticking together they condemn people who have different types of boats or different boating lifestyles. The concept of divide & rule was certainly not lost on the canal boating "community". Shame on [some of] you.

I am hoping to have a mooring on the Driffield canal, should hear this week, situated will another licence fee CRT have lost

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, blackrose said:

So many people on this forum and out there on the waterways seem to love being at each others' throats.

 

Instead of sticking together they condemn people who have different types of boats or different boating lifestyles. The concept of divide & rule was certainly not lost on the canal boating "community". Shame on [some of] you.

All I did was point out was what CART had said to justify the CC surcharge and increased widebeam surcharge, and why widebeam boaters (and CCers) ended up paying more as a result -- nothing about morals or dividing boaters or personal attacks, that came from elsewhere... 😞

 

The real problem -- as in so many aspects of society nowadays -- is that some people refuse to accept that "the greater good" may mean that they personally have to pay more. Applies to taxation as well as canals... 😞

[IanD]

16 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

and what’s that?

 

Which of the numbers I quoted (from CART) -- which you rubbished -- was wrong?

[5239]

all of them,

 

[IanD]

42 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

all of them,

 

The number of boats on CART waters? The number of CCers? Given that these come straight from licenses, it's difficult to see how they can be far wrong -- except for a small percentage of unlicensed boats, <5% IIRC.

 

Or are you arguing about CCers using the canals more than HMers -- specifically, CART's statement that CCers account for three-quarters of lock movements, based on their surveys of lock use?

 

Since CCers are about 20% of boats, if they account for 75% of lock movements then simple maths says that each CCer on average uses locks 12x as much as each HMer -- which is the reason CART give for applying the CC surcharge, heavier use of expensive-to-repair infrastructure. Even if CARTs 75% is an overestimate, it's still clear that CCers use locks a lot more than HMers (see later post).

 

(yes there's a valid counter-argument that CCers keep the canals open and used and healthy, but that's not the point here, the numbers are)

 

Go on, I'd *love* you to point out which figures are wrong, instead of "they're all BS" waffle... 😉 

 

And if any are wrong then I'll admit it, because that's what grown-ups do when they realise they've made an error -- see earlier in the thread... 🙂 

Edited June 5, 2024 by IanD

[Iain_S]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

(snip)

 

Or are you arguing about CCers using the canals more than HMers -- specifically, CART's statement that CCers account for three-quarters of lock movements, based on their surveys of lock use?

 

Since CCers are about 20% of boats, if they account for 75% of lock movements then simple maths says that each CCer on average uses locks 12x as much as each HMer -- which is the reason CART give for applying the CC surcharge, heavier use of expensive-to-repair infrstructure.

 

(yes there's a valid counter-argument that CCers keep the canals open and used and healthy, but that's not the point here, the numbers are)

 

Go on, I'd *love* you to point out which figures are wrong, instead of "they're all BS" waffle... 😉 

 

And if any are wrong then I'll admit it, because that's what grown-ups do when they realise they've made an error -- see earlier in the thread... 🙂 

From our experience, I find the "CCers accounting for 75% of lock movements" very suspect. 

[Alan de Enfield]

November 2016 (Obviously the situation has changed (probably beyond all recognition) in the last few years.

 

The last figure I saw from C&RT was ~6000 liveaboard boaters, but the problem is that a high percentage of liveaboards will not say they do as it could jeopardise their boating.

 

 

Who’s on London’s Boats survey – summary report.
November 2016
The Canal & River Trust carried out a survey to better understand who is living on / using boats in the London waterway. The findings of the survey will help to inform the Trust’s London Mooring Strategy and other policies, and those of others to help ensure the needs of boaters in London are understood and met.
About the survey.
The survey monkey, online survey was carried out between Monday 19 September and Friday 21 October 2016. The Trust identified all boats that had been sighted in London during the 12 month period 1 September 2015 and 31 August 2016.
In total the survey was sent directly to 3675 boaters. It was sent by email to 1837 boaters with a home mooring and 1427 boaters without a home mooring, and by post with a web link and details of how to request a paper version of the survey to 268 boaters with a home mooring and 143 boaters without a home mooring.
Postcards with details of the survey and including a web link were distributed around the London waterway, including being attached to boats. Posters were displayed around the London waterway network and the survey was promoted the Boater’s Update and London Boater’s Update e-bulletins.
In total 1323 responses were received to the survey. Responses to the survey were anonymous however, separate web links were used to monitor responses to the survey from different groups.
 558 surveys were completed by boaters with a home mooring with an email address
 486 surveys were completed by boaters without a home mooring with an email address
 20 surveys were completed by boaters with and without a home mooring who were sent a letter as no email was available for them.
 259 surveys were completed from the postcard links/requests for e-link to the survey
Key headlines
58% of respondents to the survey say they use their boats as their primary home.
69% of respondents said they are currently living on a boat in the London waterway area.
50% of those who responded said that affordability / financial reasons what a motivation for living on a boat.
50% have been living on boats on London’s waterways for three years or less.
Over 70% of respondents to the survey said that they owned their boats outright, a further 11% said they owned their boat with a loan or mortgage.
33% of respondents said that their boat had experienced mechanical issues in the past 12 months that has prevented them from moving it.
The top five specific improvement people want to see on the London waterways are (1) more mooring places, (2) more mooring rings, (3) water points, (4) more Elsan facilities, (5) more dredging.
34% of those living on boats are under the age of 35
5% of those living on boats are over the age of 65
63 children under the age of 16 living on boats identified through the survey.
43% of those living on boats live alone.
42% of those living on boats live as part of a cohabiting couple.
12% of those living on boats live as part of a wider family group.
45% responding said they would have some or definite interest in a mooring if permanent / long-term moorings were more readily available in the London
The most important factors when considering a permanent / long-term mooring (other than price) were (1) somewhere people feel personally safe, (2) good services nearby (sewage and rubbish etc), (3) public transport nearby.
77% of respondents said they are white (English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British), this rises to 89% when white other is included.
10% said that their day-to-day activities are limited because of a health problem or disability which has lasted, or is expected to last, at least 12 months

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

From our experience, I find the "CCers accounting for 75% of lock movements" very suspect. 

 

Presumably this is based on some kind of surveys by CART about lock usage, which means by more than one person on more than one canal on more than one occasion.

 

The exact number (75%) may be correct or not, but I suspect it's more reliable than the experience of one boater, whether that's you or me.

 

Look at it another way -- what happens if they're wrong and overestimated the number?

 

-- if they're right (CCers account 75% of lock movements) CCers each use locks 12x as much on average as HMers

-- if CCers account for 50% of lock movements -- a pretty massive difference, 50:50 (1:1) not 75:25 (3:1) -- then CCers use locks 4x as much as HMers

-- if CCers only account for 33% of lock movements -- now 2:1 one way instead of 3:1 the other way, a *gigantic* difference -- then CCers still use locks twice as much as HMers

 

So even if CART's numbers are dodgy and you don't believe them, it's pretty much impossible to claim that CARTs statement about CCers using locks a lot more is wrong...

Edited June 5, 2024 by IanD

[Iain_S]

I agree that a survey should be more accurate than one person's experience. However, it would be very easy to get the results you want from the survey, depending on the methodology used. Doing it in August will yield very different results from late April.  London and the Llangollen will also show a vast difference. If it's done by filling in a questionnaire, I'd expect CCers to overstate lock usage, and results would be very dependant on who was actually asked to take part. Bearing in mind that the desired result seemed to be a surcharge for CCers, I do feel suspicious, although it is impossible to prove without devoting a lot of time and effort to it.

[Alan de Enfield]

The survey monkey, online survey was carried out between Monday 19 September and Friday 21 October 2016.

 

Example - the 1st 2 questions and the responses :

 

 

 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I agree that a survey should be more accurate than one person's experience. However, it would be very easy to get the results you want from the survey, depending on the methodology used. Doing it in August will yield very different results from late April.  London and the Llangollen will also show a vast difference. If it's done by filling in a questionnaire, I'd expect CCers to overstate lock usage, and results would be very dependant on who was actually asked to take part. Bearing in mind that the desired result seemed to be a surcharge for CCers, I do feel suspicious, although it is impossible to prove without devoting a lot of time and effort to it.

But like I said, even if the numbers are wrong --- and IIRC they came from surveys taken at locks in multiple locations, not a questionnaire -- they would have to be far out beyond belief to avoid the conclusion the CCers use locks more (per boater) than HMers, simply because there are 4x more HMers than CCers.

 

Not to mention the obvious point that CCers are *supposed* to move around the system more, according to the license terms... 😉

 

You can make the argument that CCers keep the system going so shouldn't be penalised, but it seems impossible to deny that CART are right to say that they use locks more than HMers do -- and this is the reason they used to justify the CC surcharge.

Edited June 5, 2024 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The survey monkey, online survey was carried out between Monday 19 September and Friday 21 October 2016.

 

Example - the 1st 2 questions and the responses :

 

 

 

Quite worthless as you hinted at, as you realise there’s been a massive increase in boats over the last 4 years, especially with CCer’s due to the economy and also the type of boaters/floaters your getting has also changed dramatically since 2016, with a far younger generation coming onto the canals. So any info pre covid is quite irrelevant today.

Edited June 5, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

But like I said, even if the numbers are wrong --- and IIRC they came from surveys taken at locks in multiple locations, not a questionnaire -- they would have to be far out beyond belief to avoid the conclusion the CCers use locks more (per boater) than HMers, simply because there are 4x more HMers than CCers.

 

Not to mention the obvious point that CCers are *supposed* to move around the system more, according to the license terms... 😉

 

You can make the argument that CCers keep the system going so shouldn't be penalised, but it seems impossible to deny that CART are right to say that they use locks more than HMers do -- and this is the reason they used to justify the CC surcharge.

Especially as almost half the boats (47%) on the canals are CCers, according to the page posted by Alan!

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Especially as almost half the boats (47%) on the canals are CCers, according to the page posted by Alan!

That's half the boats on *London* canals, which is not surprising giving how many CCers/CMers and how few marinas there are... 😉 

 

IIRC CART said the number of CCers has gone up by a couple of thousand in recent years, so they might now be up to ~25% of boaters countrywide instead of ~20%. Doesn't change the conclusion though...

Edited June 5, 2024 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Especially as almost half the boats (47%) on the canals are CCers, according to the page posted by Alan!

 

 

No - 47% of London boaters are 'all year' LIVEABOARDS, liveaboard does not equate to being a CCer.

[5239]

My recent sightings tell me no one appears to be comfortable steering a wide beam on the Grand Union. It looks like they HATE it. 
 

they either do the dance from side to side (not realising the simple) or stare worryingly in to the distance like they are kind of frozen. 
🥶

 

 

[matty40s]

Yes, widebeams should stay on the large rivers, yes, they are best on the Thames....

But not when we need a pumpout and they think the sanitary station is the best place for breakfast...

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Yes, widebeams should stay on the large rivers, yes, they are best on the Thames....

But not when we need a pumpout and they think the sanitary station is the best place for breakfast...

Is it filling with water as well? Something like that would have a 2000 litres water tank, takes a couple of hours to fill 

[dogless]

On 04/06/2024 at 22:20, IanD said:

All I did was point out was what CART had said to justify the CC surcharge and increased widebeam surcharge, and why widebeam boaters (and CCers) ended up paying more as a result -- nothing about morals or dividing boaters or personal attacks, that came from elsewhere... 😞

 

The real problem -- as in so many aspects of society nowadays -- is that some people refuse to accept that "the greater good" may mean that they personally have to pay more. Applies to taxation as well as canals... 😞

If EVERY licence holder's fee was increased by a sizeable amount, not singling out individuals for whatever arbitrary reason,  wouldn't that have raised more dosh, and avoided any 'divide and rule' allegations ?

 

Pay the licence and then use the infrastructure as you please ... or stay in your marina.

 

Of course you and I would have to pay more but as you rightly point out, it's for the 'greater good'.

 

Rog

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, dogless said:

If EVERY licence holder's fee was increased by a sizeable amount, not singling out individuals for whatever arbitrary reason,  wouldn't that have raised more dosh, and avoided any 'divide and rule' allegations ?

 

Pay the licence and then use the infrastructure as you please ... or stay in your marina.

 

Of course you and I would have to pay more but as you rightly point out, it's for the 'greater good'.

 

Rog

It doesn't work like that with him Rog unfortunately. Given that most widebeams are on waterways designed for them it leaves them a much smaller cruising distance, so they really do pay more for less

[5239]

On 05/06/2024 at 13:30, IanD said:

But like I said, even if the numbers are wrong --- and IIRC they came from surveys taken at locks in multiple locations, not a questionnaire -- they would have to be far out beyond belief to avoid the conclusion the CCers use locks more (per boater) than HMers, simply because there are 4x more HMers than CCers.

 

Not to mention the obvious point that CCers are *supposed* to move around the system more, according to the license terms... 😉

 

You can make the argument that CCers keep the system going so shouldn't be penalised, but it seems impossible to deny that CART are right to say that they use locks more than HMers do -- and this is the reason they used to justify the CC surcharge.

And how many locks have you boasted doing in under 12 months?

Perhaps a lot lot more than someone casually travelling the system full time, pottering about, getting to know areas and not on a whizz tour of England and Wales. 
 

It’s a futile argument. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, dogless said:

Pay the licence and then use the infrastructure as you please ... or stay in your marina.

exactly this