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magpie patrick

Licence auto-renewal

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Email from CRT below - I have not edited it at all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

Dear Robert Moss,

It's time to renew your boat licence

Boat Name: JUNO 
Boat Index: 47289
Licence Expiry Date: 30 April 2018

Your boat licence is up for renewal and it's now easier than ever with our new licence auto-renew process. We just need you to do a couple of things so that we can automatically set up your new licence -

  1. Check your insurance details. We will assumed you have renewed your current policy, if this has changed please update.
  2. Make any changes to correct the details shown about you, the licence you require or your boat.
  3. If your mooring site has changed, please supply us with the new location.

If all your information is valid and up to date, then you do not need to do anything and your licence will be renewed automatically.

As you have previously paid by Debit Card we will automatically renew your licence on or around the 14th April 2018 before your current licence expires. If you do not want your licence to be automatically renewed, then please update your existing licence online here.

When we automaticallly renew your licence, we will send you your new licence discs by email. If you don't receive these before the expiry date of your current licence, then please check your account online or contact Customer Services to ensure you receive your prompt payment discount.

In making your application you are confirming that you have read, understood and accept the licence terms and conditions. These are published online at www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licensing or you can request a copy from customer services.

Happy boating,

Boat Licensing Team

PO Box 162 Leeds LS9 1AX
customer.services@canalrivertrust.org.uk
T 0303 040 4040 (Mon to Fri, 8am to 6pm)
www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licensing

 

I am not aware that I have signed up for this - does the fact that I have previously renewed using my debit card confer any right on their part to use it again? Does that imply that they have stoted the 3 digit security code (which ISTR is not legal?)

 

"in making you application..." the one I'm not making, the one they are making on my behalf?

I'm not a CRT basher on the whole, but this doesn't sit comfortably with me

Any thoughts?

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I'm not an expert but I suspect this is not entirely legal. They seem to be offering an 'opt-out' but I think under the data protection act, and certainly within the soon to be introduced GDPR, customers have to be given the option to 'opt-in'.

On the other hand it won't concern me too much as I will pay by debit card again later this year, but would be nice to be asked first.

Note to peeps: please don't sue CaRT until after the breach is fixed.

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36 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I am not aware that I have signed up for this - does the fact that I have previously renewed using my debit card confer any right on their part to use it again?

Only if you granted it to them last time you paid by card, and this is not mandatory.

There was a tickbox to store the details for auto-renewal, which I did not select (or possibly unticked) when I did it, and my licence account does not currently auto-renew.

If you go into "My Payment Details" you will find details of the stored card(s), and will have the option to untick "Use this card for my Leisure Licence Auto Renewals".

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They are sailing close to the wind (sic) - perhaps CaRT thinks its still a public authority and can do what it likes. Many folks think - "I can't be bothered" and pass on by, so CaRT get away with it.

On a sideways point, there was a discussion on R4 this morning about Ts and Cs and that nobody ever reads them - so businesses  put in clauses which are not 'good practice' and which could seriously affect you.

In the end what can you do.....

 

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One significant difference here is that they say the will take the money on the 14th of the preceeding month.  Up until now they have taken the money by DD on the first of the month after the expiry, for mooring and licence.  Sometimes the money wasn't taken for several days.

This could catch people out if they normally top up their bank just before then end of the month to cover their licence payment.

Edited by dor

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1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

They are sailing close to the wind (sic) - perhaps CaRT thinks its still a public authority and can do what it likes. Many folks think - "I can't be bothered" and pass on by, so CaRT get away with it.

On a sideways point, there was a discussion on R4 this morning about Ts and Cs and that nobody ever reads them - so businesses  put in clauses which are not 'good practice' and which could seriously affect you.

In the end what can you do.....

 

The only possible valid point here is that at some stage CaRT may not have responded quickly enough to the requirement to shift from opt out to opt in in the rules. Since, in general, the scheme saves CaRT money, then I'm all in favour provided that the luddites have room to live.

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I had the same email, and clicked on the link to stop the auto renewal.  They apparently hadn't noticed that the card I used last year had expired, so presumably it wouldn't have worked any way.  Assuming that people have just renewed their insurance is quite a big assumption too.

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3 hours ago, adam1uk said:

I had the same email, and clicked on the link to stop the auto renewal.  They apparently hadn't noticed that the card I used last year had expired, so presumably it wouldn't have worked any way.  Assuming that people have just renewed their insurance is quite a big assumption too.

It's actually their second attempt at autorenewal as I have two boats. For reasons of pure laziness they aren't obviously registered by the same person: different email addresses for example. Lutine's autorenewal failed because of insufficient funds on the day (different card, different account to Juno, wasn't expecting it). I'm fairly certain I didn't have the email but it may have ended up in SPAM. I wrote that off as "I must have agreed and forgotten about it" - I'm damn sure I haven't made the same mistake twice though, so it looks like they are making you opt out not opt in.

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9 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

It's actually their second attempt at autorenewal as I have two boats. For reasons of pure laziness they aren't obviously registered by the same person: different email addresses for example. Lutine's autorenewal failed because of insufficient funds on the day (different card, different account to Juno, wasn't expecting it). I'm fairly certain I didn't have the email but it may have ended up in SPAM. I wrote that off as "I must have agreed and forgotten about it" - I'm damn sure I haven't made the same mistake twice though, so it looks like they are making you opt out not opt in.

If they are, they'll have to change it when GDPR kicks in on 25 May. Under the new regime consent for processing any personal data must be positive and "granular" i.e. specific and detailed. It's going to be interesting to see how many organisations comply as the reach is tremendous, even affecting my small scale fluffy bunny Braidbar Owners' Group.

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A retailer should not  store your credit/debit card details themselves  – but  use a third party supplier in line with regulations.

 As soon as you enter your card details, the number is ‘tokenised’ and encrypted, with the original data discarded.

 Perhaps you accidentally authorised C&RT to retain your card details.  You can click on the link to stop the authorisation of the payment or call C&RT and I feel sure they will amend their records.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

A retailer should not  store your credit/debit card details themselves  – but  use a third party supplier in line with regulations.

 As soon as you enter your card details, the number is ‘tokenised’ and encrypted, with the original data discarded.

 Perhaps you accidentally authorised C&RT to retain your card details.  You can click on the link to stop the authorisation of the payment or call C&RT and I feel sure they will amend their records.

Accidentally authorised two boats, on two cards, with two different email accounts? that is beginning to look like opt-out not opt-in

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If you do not wish this arrangement to coninue  you can cancel the continuus payment authority by taking the opt out choice by clicking on the link on the renewal invitation.

You should be able to opt out at any time.

Please do ask C&RT how you can opt out at any time and make this an indefinite arrangement and report back.

 

 

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7 hours ago, MartynG said:

If you do not wish this arrangement to coninue  you can cancel the continuus payment authority by taking the opt out choice by clicking on the link on the renewal invitation.

You should be able to opt out at any time.

Please do ask C&RT how you can opt out at any time and make this an indefinite arrangement and report back.

See post #3 in this thread.

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8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

See post #3 in this thread.

I missed that.

Once these things are understood it seems simple enough.

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Just got my licence for a boat new to me and the blurb assured me that it would automatically renew next year. When I managed to find the opt out box it demanded a reason. I really felt like filling in the box with something that might get me arrested in polite company, but discretion overcame valour and I suggested that I might not still own the boat in 12 months time.

Not altogether comfortable with automatic renewals of any sort - I would prefer to be asked by someone extracting money from my bank account.

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7 minutes ago, manxmike said:

When I managed to find the opt out box it demanded a reason. I really felt like filling in the box with something that might get me arrested in polite company...

I feel the same way when I’m asked “Would you like to set up a direct debit for this?” and when I decline they ask “Why not?”  

Because I like to be in charge of my own bank account thank you very much 

  • Haha 1

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11 hours ago, manxmike said:

Just got my licence for a boat new to me and the blurb assured me that it would automatically renew next year. When I managed to find the opt out box it demanded a reason. I really felt like filling in the box with something that might get me arrested in polite company, but discretion overcame valour and I suggested that I might not still own the boat in 12 months time.

Not altogether comfortable with automatic renewals of any sort - I would prefer to be asked by someone extracting money from my bank account.

I have now filled that box in, stating that I never asked for the service and had not opted-in

When I do renew thay will get a fairly sharp email pointing out the unethical approach they are taking and that it will be illegal as of May 25th, I shall remind them that I am one of their consultants working on infrastructure and restoration as well as one of their boaters

As someone who works for them in that capacity CRT are charming, courteous and ethical. Their attitude to their licence holders can be somewhat different

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Isn't it the case that either next year or the year after, you'll only get the full early payment discount if you pay by direct debit? So if, like me, you want to control when the money goes out of your account you will lose half the discount. 

 

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Latest update - I have now renewed Juno's licence, and when I checked after doing so, auto-renew had been reinstated. CRT are making you opt out EVERY TIME YOU RENEW

I have opted out again, with the comment the making me opt out won't be legal come the renewal date...

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33 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

...won't be legal come the renewal date...

Which brings an interesting ethical conundrum: -

  • If you shop them, they can be fined (quite a lot of money) - Where does that come from? licence holders (or by cutting services further)
  • If you don't shop them they are "getting away with it"

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23 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Latest update - I have now renewed Juno's licence, and when I checked after doing so, auto-renew had been reinstated. CRT are making you opt out EVERY TIME YOU RENEW

I have opted out again, with the comment the making me opt out won't be legal come the renewal date...

That's a bit naughty. See here, particularly the bit about getting explicit consent. Must check mine!

They shouldn't be storing the 3-digit code (aka CVV2) at all, they should only be using it transiently for the initial online validation, as evidence that the person making the transaction had access to the physical card, and storing it ANY form is a contravention of PCI standards. For subsequent payments (on the basis that you consented!) it's not needed. They are permitted to store the long card number, subject to encryption and other controls, but they may have outsourced that to a bureau. 

(Disclaimer: My personal opinion, not that of my employer)

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On 26/03/2018 at 18:09, Arthur Marshall said:

Isn't it the case that either next year or the year after, you'll only get the full early payment discount if you pay by direct debit? So if, like me, you want to control when the money goes out of your account you will lose half the discount. 

 

No, because it’s a “self serve” discount — so paying online qualifies as well as direct debit.

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58 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Latest update - I have now renewed Juno's licence, and when I checked after doing so, auto-renew had been reinstated. CRT are making you opt out EVERY TIME YOU RENEW

I have opted out again, with the comment the making me opt out won't be legal come the renewal date...

Bloody hell!

I have just checked "Sickle" and you are correct, even though I had it set to "don't autorenew", they have set it back to "autorenew" after the latest renewal.

This to my mind is completely unacceptable, particularly if they are taking the payment 2 weeks before it is actually due.

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On 22/03/2018 at 09:28, magpie patrick said:

Email from CRT below - I have not edited it at all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not aware that I have signed up for this - does the fact that I have previously renewed using my debit card confer any right on their part to use it again? Does that imply that they have stoted the 3 digit security code (which ISTR is not legal?)

 

"in making you application..." the one I'm not making, the one they are making on my behalf?

I'm not a CRT basher on the whole, but this doesn't sit comfortably with me

Any thoughts?

But the whole point of setting up a Direct Debit is to take all the hassle out of it.

Or did you mean you just paid with your debit card?

Phil 

  • Greenie 1

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14 hours ago, adam1uk said:

No, because it’s a “self serve” discount — so paying online qualifies as well as direct debit.

No it doesn't.  The introduction implies that it does, but the actual analysis says:

"3. The prompt payment discount will be reduced to 5% in April 2019. From April 2020 the structure of the discount will be changed so that a 2.5% discount will be offered for prompt payment in full, and a 2.5% discount for those using automated payment methods (including monthly direct debits). "

I would imagine that just paying online with a card doesn't qualified as "automated", though what else could apart from DD I have no idea.

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