Electric Engines

[magpie patrick]

Lutine is likely to be re-engined soon - like for like, although I expect the new ST2 will be a tad more reliable than it's predecessor! However, from such things hypothetical questions abound...

The songbird asked if I would consider an electric engine - we drive electric cars when we can and luurve the Tesla S (which I can't afford) and the ST2 is about as silent as a tractor, however realistically for Lutine at this moment the answer is no, I imagine the expense would be huge, the batteries would have to go under the floor which would mean ripping the cabin floor out, and Lutine's cabin bilge is a through bilge, very wet...

But what are the practicalities of electric power, leaving aside the problems of recharging? I'm guessing new build would be the best way, so the hull can be designed for 3 tonnes of battery, but is retrofit possible? Is pure electric or hybrid the way to go? and If hybrid, petrol, diesel or gas generator? 

I also have Juno, which has a 10hp Yamaha outboard, any potential for electric instead? Juno is a Viking 23 weighing about 1 tonne in total. 

And finally, I don't actually own a Tabur Yak 2 (car top dinghy, 8 feet long by 4 foot beam) but there is one in the back of Dad's garage, how would you go about electric power on that? Minn Kota and a 110ah battery?

One day I may retire or win the lottery, and I want to have done the research in advance 

[Murflynn]

most practical electric drive systems are one of the following:

1 - day trip boats that run for a few hours and then come back to base for overnight charging.

2 - hybrid drives like Fischer Panda that have a diesel engined generator in a 'sound-proof' housing, driving an electric motor.

I can't see many privately owned boats using option 1 and I can't see any advantage in option 2.

 

regarding Juno, I have a 16ft yogurt pot equipped with a 32lb thrust trolling motor, 440AH batteries and 400W nominal solar panels.  The hull is very easily driven (fine entry, transom is not immersed), the boat weighs about 400kg, and I get about 4hrs running at walking speed, about 3mph (which is flat out for that motor).  I love silent cruising on rivers.  I have a 4hp 2 stroke twin cylinder outboard as the auxiliary.  I have to find a hook-up point each night to fully charge the batteries.

A 26ft Viking with an immersed transom will need a motor with at least twice the power for a reasonable canal speed.

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Murflynn

[Sir Nibble]

Hybrid is horribly inefficient and only rendered effective because the average driver drives as if the point is to turn fuel into brake pad dust as quick as possible. A battery set up will be quieter and greener but costly and restrictive. What are your priorities?

[Robbo]

There's quite a few boats that have gone down the Hybrid route.   There is the totally electric motor option with a generator/batteries to supply the power, or a diesel engine with motor/generator on the gearbox as well.   I think the advantages are that it's quieter especially if powered by battery power alone as well as it's easier to sound insulate a constant running engine rather than a variable running engine.  Possibly more efficient depending on circumstances (although I don't think you'll recoup the additional purchase cost).   Those circumstances come from reduced running of the engine when not needed like locks or when shore power available.

The Dutch barge Sara has a genny / electric motor option, if you use the search option on here you'll come across their setup.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Robbo

[David Mack]

59 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Hybrid is horribly inefficient and only rendered effective because the average driver drives as if the point is to turn fuel into brake pad dust as quick as possible. A battery set up will be quieter and greener but costly and restrictive. What are your priorities?

Hybrid cars are more energy efficient as when braking the kinetic energy of the vehicle is put back into the battery.  But no way to do that on a boat.

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, Robbo said:

There's quite a few boats that have gone down the Hybrid route.   There is the totally electric motor option with a generator/batteries to supply the power, or a diesel engine with motor/generator on the gearbox as well.   I think the advantages are that it's quieter especially if powered by battery power alone as well as it's easier to sound insulate a constant running engine rather than a variable running engine.  Possibly more efficient depending on circumstances (although I don't think you'll recoup the additional purchase cost).   Those circumstances come from reduced running of the engine when not needed like locks or when shore power available.

The Dutch barge Sara has a genny / electric motor option, if you use the search option on here you'll come across their setup.

Paul finds it useful when filming http://www.waterwayroutes.co.uk/wr/faq-electric-propulsion.html

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

Hybrid is horribly inefficient and only rendered effective because the average driver drives as if the point is to turn fuel into brake pad dust as quick as possible. A battery set up will be quieter and greener but costly and restrictive. What are your priorities?

Not sure, beyond fact finding. I like Lutine's ST2 but even I must agree it's a tad loud. This change won't happen with Lutine, it will be the next narrow boat or the one after that

I drive electric cars and, more often, hybrids, because they are greener, fewer emissions at point of use and probably less CO2 overall unless I use the ST2 to recharge the car. These are hire cars, I own a relatively efficient but 20 year old VW Golf, mainly because it's cheap.

low/zero emissions and low/zero noise I suppose, but not at the expense of not being able to cruise extensively. The Tabur Yak could be rowed back if needs be, and I could switch to a petrol outboard for serious long distance canal-bashing. 

Didn't the Original Boat Company have some electric hire boats many years ago? I guess the drawback was cruising range

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

most practical electric drive systems are one of the following:

1 - day trip boats that run for a few hours and then come back to base for overnight charging.

2 - hybrid drives like Fischer Panda that have a diesel engined generator in a 'sound-proof' housing, driving an electric motor.

I can't see many privately owned boats using option 1 and I can't see any advantage in option 2.

Such boats run out of Brassknocker basin on exactly that moduc operandi - spookily quiet but a lot of batteries!

[OldGoat]

This is going to be as 'bad' as a pumpout vs everything else thread......

Assuming your ST2 is in a 'proper' engine room, then:-

replace it with a cocooned Beta with fresh water cooling.

then either replace the propshaft with Beta's prop gen concept - that would make more space in the engine room for other things (mount the engine to ne side

or not.

There's not a lot of point in having a propgen if you're not an all electric boat.

I'd  suggest that a cocooned engine would be almost as quiet as an electric boat - but without the hassle of loads of batteries and much less expensive.

 

 

[cuthound]

Another major consideration with an electric boat is finding a boatyard capable of fixing it. Many still haven't yet fully grasped the concept of the the internal combustion engine despite it being around on the canals for 90 years plus!

As others have said, they are inefficient and the real killer is having to pay for new batteries every few years in a big lump sum, rather than it dripping out of your wallet tankful by tankful.

Edited March 6, 2017 by cuthound
Spillung

[MtB]

On 06/03/2017 at 15:03, magpie patrick said:

I drive electric cars and, more often, hybrids, because they are greener,

 

But ARE they really? Where does the electricity come from?

[peterboat]

I am going down this route with my broads cruiser, I bought a Cedric Lynch electric motor years ago with 24 volt controller. The boat weighs 5 tons ish and has a 1500 BMC which is ok but far to noisy, so I plan to gut the boat and refit it this year, I will use solar on the roof and also have a new 24 volt whispergen to aid charging. I reckon if I cruise every other day and run the whispergen at the end of every journey for hot water and to boost batteries it should be ok, and more importantly so does Cedric who is a dab hand at this stuff.

I am a member of the EBA who have lots of working electric boats so their is nothing new about any of this and the Broads are heading that way as well. whether we like it or not electric is what we will be driving so how long before diesel is either to expensive for boating or not available?

You should google electric boats and see how far on they are some ferries are all electric and from what I can gather lots of seagoing ships are diesel electric, perhaps us dinsaurs wont be roaming the waterways for much longer?

[Sir Nibble]

how about fuel cells?

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

how about fuel cells?

how about them ?? 

[MtB]

On 07/03/2017 at 08:48, Murflynn said:

how about them ?? 

 

Fuel cells are properly green.

(Except for the red ones, obvs.)

[billh]

Here's an (English) electric engine:

 

[mross]

English Electric 16SVT

 

This is the 16SVT engine acquired by the Ivatt Diesel ReCreation Society to recreate LMS10000.

It is seen here in storage while the project raises money to work on the rest of the loco.

 

see more info about the project at www.lms10000.org

[ditchcrawler]

9 hours ago, peterboat said:

I am going down this route with my broads cruiser, I bought a Cedric Lynch electric motor years ago with 24 volt controller. The boat weighs 5 tons ish and has a 1500 BMC which is ok but far to noisy, so I plan to gut the boat and refit it this year, I will use solar on the roof and also have a new 24 volt whispergen to aid charging. I reckon if I cruise every other day and run the whispergen at the end of every journey for hot water and to boost batteries it should be ok, and more importantly so does Cedric who is a dab hand at this stuff.

I am a member of the EBA who have lots of working electric boats so their is nothing new about any of this and the Broads are heading that way as well. whether we like it or not electric is what we will be driving so how long before diesel is either to expensive for boating or not available?

You should google electric boats and see how far on they are some ferries are all electric and from what I can gather lots of seagoing ships are diesel electric, perhaps us dinsaurs wont be roaming the waterways for much longer?

Is it on the Broads, they are fitting more and more electricity outlets

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is it on the Broads, they are fitting more and more electricity outlets

They are 48 volt ones apparently. I spoke to a broads boat builder a couple of weeks ago to get the weight of mine, the salesman inquired what I was doing, when I told him he told me what they were doing and about the charging points, he seemed to know his stuff 

[ditchcrawler]

42 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They are 48 volt ones apparently. I spoke to a broads boat builder a couple of weeks ago to get the weight of mine, the salesman inquired what I was doing, when I told him he told me what they were doing and about the charging points, he seemed to know his stuff 

Not heard that

This from the Broads Authority http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/475327/Charging-points-2014.pdf

Edited March 7, 2017 by ditchcrawler
Add BA info

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not heard that

This from the Broads Authority http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/475327/Charging-points-2014.pdf

I wonder if the 32 amp socket is for the on board charger? Who knows I cant even tell you which boat builder I spoke to as I in scotland not Rotherham where I wrote the info down

[mrsmelly]

18 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But ARE they really? Where does the electricity come from?

Much can be typed but in a nutshell in 2017 they are a no go too expensive and still need mr fossil in reality to charge the fifty billion tons of batteries. Electric propulsion for boats is a bout as sensible option as a composting bog 

[stegra]

I'm going with electric drive. I can't possibly see how an efficient electric motor even if it was only used with a decent generator can be less efficient than a clunky old diesel engine. Anyone suggesting that electric drive is only suitable for small craft might want to consider this diesel electric tiddler:

 

 

I'm not here to evangelize to those who cannot be converted but for anyone who is interested in electric propulsion there is a dedicated club:

http://www.eboat.org.uk/

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, stegra said:

I'm going with electric drive. I can't possibly see how an efficient electric motor even if it was only used with a decent generator can be less efficient than a clunky old diesel engine. Anyone suggesting that electric drive is only suitable for small craft might want to consider this diesel electric tiddler:

 

 

I'm not here to evangelize to those who cannot be converted but for anyone who is interested in electric propulsion there is a dedicated club:

http://www.eboat.org.uk/

Electric motors are awesome as we all know. First I heard of them was in the " Deltics " I used to travel on as a boy. The clue as always lies with the letter " D " or word " Diesel "

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Much can be typed but in a nutshell in 2017 they are a no go too expensive and still need mr fossil in reality to charge the fifty billion tons of batteries. Electric propulsion for boats is a bout as sensible option as a composting bog 

Oh Tim you old dinosaur. I reckon on 1200 kilos of batteries 1 KW of solar and the whispergen for hot water and some charging at the end of the journey, The solar will do something on the trip as long as the sun shines that is, but I dont want to travel everyday so we would see what we see when its done

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Oh Tim you old dinosaur. I reckon on 1200 kilos of batteries 1 KW of solar and the whispergen for hot water and some charging at the end of the journey, The solar will do something on the trip as long as the sun shines that is, but I dont want to travel everyday so we would see what we see when its done

Tell me old bean.......what exactly does the " Whispergen " run on?  and a TON of batteries..........that will be sooooooo cheap, have you seen the recent battery threads?