Electric Engines

[Murflynn]

2 hours ago, Mitchellmoxo said:

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/electric-sailboat-kits-and-accessories-inboard-motor-ev/

 

these electric conversion kits kits look quite good and not too expensive. The only thing you need to add is the batteries. 

I remember asking lynch how much their conversions kits were once and I think they came to about 6k without batteries although they were very helpful on the phone 

is such a boat called a Thunderboat ? - sorry, I think that name is verboten 

[Athy]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And to put in in better perspective thats 65 tons of fuel burned just on one flight. The take-off weight of a Jumble Jet is 300 tons, and half of that is fuel. Staggering innit.

 

I feel for your former maths teacher.

[cereal tiller]

13 minutes ago, Athy said:

I feel for your former maths teacher.

The plane carries more than 65 tons of Fuel,much is kept in reserve.

Gliding in to Land could unnerve the Passengers

CT

[mross]

36 minutes ago, Athy said:

I feel for your former maths teacher.

Why?  What he said is about right.  

[stegra]

40 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

what batteries and charging regime?

I'm frightened to say for fear of turning this into another composting loo thread. So, current (sigh) thinking is:

Base plate to floor bearers is 350mm which gives ample height for Trojans or AGM leisure batteries which will be at the stern within the cabin. This necessitates a hatch in the galley floor. The AGMs are favourite until I'm convinced otherwise because I'm just not a very good regular attention-giver. Sixteen or twenty 12v 110Ah arranged as 48v banks with the option to expand if needed.

The boat is primarily a live-aboard so the batteries will be for domestic power. If there is some compromise when cruising such as having to run a generator constantly then I'll just have to deal with it but from my inquiries so far this seems unlikely. I'm planning to be marina based with shoreline available, although I'd like to get by without. There'll be a woodburner and gas boiler so no heat generation other than a solar dump load immersion which could also be used when battery power is ample.

At least 2kw mono solar with MPPT controller and the generator for charging. As for a regime, I guess this is the appeal of the AGMs. I realised this morning when driving up to see my boat that I bought my car over seven years ago and it's only had its first year service. Admittedly, it's only got 12000 miles on the clock but you can probably deduce from this that I'm hardly OCD when it comes to maintenance. My hope would be never to discharge them enough for it to become a problem. I thought possibly to have a panel with a simple voltmeter display to each battery and push switches to read them to check for irregularities.

I realise this all might sound comical to many on here who seem to treat their battery maintenance with the same fastidiousness I might apply to packing a parachute for myself but, hey, I'm fortunate to be in a position where this is even a concern so I'll count my blessings.

[MtB]

On 10/03/2017 at 17:53, Athy said:

I feel for your former maths teacher.

 

As others have pointed out, you really didn't think that through did you! I knew someone would fall in the trap I laid, I should have known it would be you! 

One sixth of a tank of fuel in reserve was probably actually understating the case. 

 

Edit to add ze smileee....

Edited March 10, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[MtB]

On 10/03/2017 at 19:22, stegra said:

I'm frightened to say for fear of turning this into another composting loo thread. So, current (sigh) thinking is:

Base plate to floor bearers is 350mm which gives ample height for Trojans or AGM leisure batteries which will be at the stern within the cabin. This necessitates a hatch in the galley floor. The AGMs are favourite until I'm convinced otherwise because I'm just not a very good regular attention-giver. Sixteen or twenty 12v 110Ah arranged as 48v banks with the option to expand if needed.

The boat is primarily a live-aboard so the batteries will be for domestic power. If there is some compromise when cruising such as having to run a generator constantly then I'll just have to deal with it but from my inquiries so far this seems unlikely. I'm planning to be marina based with shoreline available, although I'd like to get by without. There'll be a woodburner and gas boiler so no heat generation other than a solar dump load immersion which could also be used when battery power is ample.

At least 2kw mono solar with MPPT controller and the generator for charging. As for a regime, I guess this is the appeal of the AGMs. I realised this morning when driving up to see my boat that I bought my car over seven years ago and it's only had its first year service. Admittedly, it's only got 12000 miles on the clock but you can probably deduce from this that I'm hardly OCD when it comes to maintenance. My hope would be never to discharge them enough for it to become a problem. I thought possibly to have a panel with a simple voltmeter display to each battery and push switches to read them to check for irregularities.

I realise this all might sound comical to many on here who seem to treat their battery maintenance with the same fastidiousness I might apply to packing a parachute for myself but, hey, I'm fortunate to be in a position where this is even a concern so I'll count my blessings.

 

Batteries and the charging thereof being of course, the desperately weak link in the whole plan.

I wish there was a better term than 'elephant in the room'....

The slightest flaw in your plan/charging regime and bang goes £6k worth of batteries.

[Murflynn]

19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Batteries and the charging thereof being of course, the desperately weak link in the whole plan.

I wish there was a better term than 'elephant in the room'....

The slightest flaw in your plan/charging regime and bang goes £6k worth of batteries.

MtB fell into the composting loo trap first.   

[MtB]

On 10/03/2017 at 20:03, Murflynn said:

MtB fell into the composting loo trap first.   

 

Composting loos are shit, as any fule kno....

[stegra]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Batteries and the charging thereof being of course, the desperately weak link in the whole plan.

I wish there was a better term than 'elephant in the room'....

The slightest flaw in your plan/charging regime and bang goes £6k worth of batteries.

£6k for twenty 110Ah AGMs. I'm not sure it's possible to pay that much. I'm off to pack a parachute!

[MtB]

On 10/03/2017 at 20:19, stegra said:

£6k for twenty 110Ah AGMs. I'm not sure it's possible to pay that much. I'm off to pack a parachute!

 

Ok but at £200 each for a decent brand it still adds up to £4k!

[MtB]

P.S. I hope you're not confusing sealed LA batteries or gels with AGM. 

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Mitchellmoxo said:

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/electric-sailboat-kits-and-accessories-inboard-motor-ev/

 

these electric conversion kits kits look quite good and not too expensive. The only thing you need to add is the batteries. 

I remember asking lynch how much their conversions kits were once and I think they came to about 6k without batteries although they were very helpful on the phone 

My Cedric Lynch motor came from Agni it cost with controller £1300 ish mind that was 8 plus years ago will be fitted this year with luck

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, stegra said:

Looks like I'll be going with Thunderstruck. At first I was interested in the 12.5kw (35hp peak) kit with the Sevcon controller but after taking advice from here and from the supplier decided it might not have enough grunt in difficult conditions or an emergency. Later I was looking at a water-cooled kit from China but in the middle of the dealings they added $1k to the price and downgraded the controller to a square wave version. The plan now is to get Thunderstruck to make up a kit with one of the bigger motors. I was told by another specialist that the Sevcon controller was very difficult to reprogram and to go for the Curtis instead, as Thunderstuck do with the bigger motors.

I have the curtis controller as always its made in China and the Agni motor is made in India I would go for the Cedric lynch motor as they are the best available everyone has copied them but are they as good?

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, stegra said:

I'm frightened to say for fear of turning this into another composting loo thread. So, current (sigh) thinking is:

Base plate to floor bearers is 350mm which gives ample height for Trojans or AGM leisure batteries which will be at the stern within the cabin. This necessitates a hatch in the galley floor. The AGMs are favourite until I'm convinced otherwise because I'm just not a very good regular attention-giver. Sixteen or twenty 12v 110Ah arranged as 48v banks with the option to expand if needed.

The boat is primarily a live-aboard so the batteries will be for domestic power. If there is some compromise when cruising such as having to run a generator constantly then I'll just have to deal with it but from my inquiries so far this seems unlikely. I'm planning to be marina based with shoreline available, although I'd like to get by without. There'll be a woodburner and gas boiler so no heat generation other than a solar dump load immersion which could also be used when battery power is ample.

At least 2kw mono solar with MPPT controller and the generator for charging. As for a regime, I guess this is the appeal of the AGMs. I realised this morning when driving up to see my boat that I bought my car over seven years ago and it's only had its first year service. Admittedly, it's only got 12000 miles on the clock but you can probably deduce from this that I'm hardly OCD when it comes to maintenance. My hope would be never to discharge them enough for it to become a problem. I thought possibly to have a panel with a simple voltmeter display to each battery and push switches to read them to check for irregularities.

I realise this all might sound comical to many on here who seem to treat their battery maintenance with the same fastidiousness I might apply to packing a parachute for myself but, hey, I'm fortunate to be in a position where this is even a concern so I'll count my blessings.

I am converting a Broads cruiser it weighs 5 tons and is ok for a 24 volt motor, I will have as much solar as I can fit on the roof. Remember that for most of the time you will be on light load and in locks turned off so you might not use as much power as you think Plenty of blogs on this if you hunt around

[Athy]

4 hours ago, mross said:

Why?  What he said is about right.  

Llook at the figures and do the maths for yourself.

 

Whoops, my typing of that first word must have been influenced by watching this evening's rugby game.

[mross]

8 hours ago, Athy said:

 

13 hours ago, mross said:

Why?  What he said is about right.  

Look at the figures and do the maths for yourself.

 

Maximum take-off weight of a 747-400 is 396 tonnes, of which 165 tonnes is fuel.  But it will not always be full on take off.  LHR to JFK uses about 65 tonnes, with a reserve of 15 to 20 tonnes.  It's semantics, not maths where you disagree.

[mrsmelly]

14 hours ago, stegra said:

I'm frightened to say for fear of turning this into another composting loo thread. So, current (sigh) thinking is:

Base plate to floor bearers is 350mm which gives ample height for Trojans or AGM leisure batteries which will be at the stern within the cabin. This necessitates a hatch in the galley floor. The AGMs are favourite until I'm convinced otherwise because I'm just not a very good regular attention-giver. Sixteen or twenty 12v 110Ah arranged as 48v banks with the option to expand if needed.

The boat is primarily a live-aboard so the batteries will be for domestic power. If there is some compromise when cruising such as having to run a generator constantly then I'll just have to deal with it but from my inquiries so far this seems unlikely. I'm planning to be marina based with shoreline available, although I'd like to get by without. There'll be a woodburner and gas boiler so no heat generation other than a solar dump load immersion which could also be used when battery power is ample.

At least 2kw mono solar with MPPT controller and the generator for charging. As for a regime, I guess this is the appeal of the AGMs. I realised this morning when driving up to see my boat that I bought my car over seven years ago and it's only had its first year service. Admittedly, it's only got 12000 miles on the clock but you can probably deduce from this that I'm hardly OCD when it comes to maintenance. My hope would be never to discharge them enough for it to become a problem. I thought possibly to have a panel with a simple voltmeter display to each battery and push switches to read them to check for irregularities.

I realise this all might sound comical to many on here who seem to treat their battery maintenance with the same fastidiousness I might apply to packing a parachute for myself but, hey, I'm fortunate to be in a position where this is even a concern so I'll count my blessings.

This all sounds good. What kind of boat with what set up do you live on at the moment?

[mrsmelly]

Having read this thread my views are changing as to the viability of electric propulsion. In my research I have come across the latest offering from mercedes and it looks very promising. I dont do attachments but those of you interested in just how far we have already come look at the " Mercedes aa class " on you tube, deffo worth thinking about.

[cereal tiller]

10 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Having read this thread my views are changing as to the viability of electric propulsion. In my research I have come across the latest offering from mercedes and it looks very promising. I dont do attachments but those of you interested in just how far we have already come look at the " Mercedes aa class " on you tube, deffo worth thinking about.

Just saw that advert,Jolly good!

[peterboat]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Having read this thread my views are changing as to the viability of electric propulsion. In my research I have come across the latest offering from mercedes and it looks very promising. I dont do attachments but those of you interested in just how far we have already come look at the " Mercedes aa class " on you tube, deffo worth thinking about.

Oh Tim you doubter you should have believed earlier electric is here and is the future have a go in one you will be surprised

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Oh Tim you doubter you should have believed earlier electric is here and is the future have a go in one you will be surprised

Yes true they have realy caught on. In 2013 0.16% of uk new cars where plug in electric cars  Theres nowt wrong with electric motors they are quiet, powerful and quite small. The only problem with them is the pollution caused in charging whatever charging way you use to fill up the batteries or the fact you have to run an internal combustion engine along side them to make them work. And you a Jag man knows a v8 petrol is soooooooooooo much nicer than a hummy lectric motor 

[stegra]

This is far from a new concept. Here is an excerpt from Graham Booth and Andy Burnett's New Narrowboat Builder's Book which I believe was published in 1992; long before solar was anything more than an expensive novelty:

Finally, how about diesel electric? - so far untried, although the Electric Boat Association has produced a system specification. The concept brings together a number of trends: pure electric boating is quiet and clean - but so far restricted to day boats because of the lack of nationwide charging points. The generating capacity of narrowboat engines has become almost as important as their propulsion ability as demand for independent on-board 240-volt power has increased.

The vessel to fill both these needs could have full electric drive system, complete with medium- or long-range battery banks - and supported by a substantial diesel generator, installed to run quietly in a remote part of the boat. The diesel unit could be smaller than conventional narrowboat engines because the electric drive acts as an efficient torque converter.

He goes on to say that the drive system would be heinously expensive but I don't think that's the case today. I suspect motors and controllers have advanced considerably in the 25 years since that was published. 80%-90% efficiency seems to be the norm nowadays.

Edited March 12, 2017 by stegra
Add Andy Burnett to the book's authors.

[Sir Nibble]

9 minutes ago, stegra said:

This is far from a new concept. Here is an excerpt from Graham Booth and Andy Burnett's New Narrowboat Builder's Book which I believe was published in 1992; long before solar was anything more than an expensive novelty:

Finally, how about diesel electric? - so far untried, although the Electric Boat Association has produced a system specification. The concept brings together a number of trends: pure electric boating is quiet and clean - but so far restricted to day boats because of the lack of nationwide charging points. The generating capacity of narrowboat engines has become almost as important as their propulsion ability as demand for independent on-board 240-volt power has increased.

The vessel to fill both these needs could have full electric drive system, complete with medium- or long-range battery banks - and supported by a substantial diesel generator, installed to run quietly in a remote part of the boat. The diesel unit could be smaller than conventional narrowboat engines because the electric drive acts as an efficient torque converter.

He goes on to say that the drive system would be heinously expensive but I don't think that's the case today. I suspect motors and controllers have advanced considerably in the 25 years since that was published. 80%-90% efficiency seems to be the norm nowadays.

I suspect the information is ripped off from the automotive world and not well understood by the "author". 

"The diesel unit could be smaller than conventional narrowboat engines because the electric drive acts as an efficient torque converter."

Yes, electric drive does act as a torque converter but that is irrelevant  to boat use where a torque converter is of no use and the propellor is a bloody good one anyway. The engine can be smaller simply because it doesn't need to develop the full power needed for short bursts for instance to stop in a hurry. Regardless of any other consideration diesel electric drive is and forever will be wasteful of fuel.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Sir Nibble said:

I suspect the information is ripped off from the automotive world and not well understood by the "author". 

"The diesel unit could be smaller than conventional narrowboat engines because the electric drive acts as an efficient torque converter."

Yes, electric drive does act as a torque converter but that is irrelevant  to boat use where a torque converter is of no use and the propellor is a bloody good one anyway. The engine can be smaller simply because it doesn't need to develop the full power needed for short bursts for instance to stop in a hurry. Regardless of any other consideration diesel electric drive is and forever will be wasteful of fuel.

At a conservative guesstimate it will still cost at least double a conventional set up and still burn shed loads of diesel. There was one moored here called " Switched off " oh deary deary me............and it had a diesel stove just to add insult to injury.