What to ask for in fitout?

[Tony Brooks]

I often think that the advice to do a power audit first is rather cart before the horse because the limiting factor one may/most boats is how much battery charge you can produce each day. Really that should be the starting point and then the electrical "wants" should be specified to accommodate the charging capacity rather than doing it the other way round and trying to make the charging capacity fit the demand.

 

I would also suggest that solar charging be discounted in any calculations because it is so variable and season dependant. However I would fit as much as I could afford or accommodate because a decent amount will allow days tied up without running any engines in the summer.

 

Has anyone mentioned battery monitoring equipment (probably Smartgauge plus some form of shunted ammeter)? If not and you want decent battery life from whatever type its vital. However if you do go down the Lithium route just make sure it also provides sufficient monitoring to tell you when to starts and stop charging.

[OldGoat]

JJPHG, on 26 Jan 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Thanks everybody,

 

To answer a few questions, yes it will be my first boat but I think pretty much know what I want (granted that's different from what I need!). I've done quite a lot of 12V living - caravan in Europe and over here our motorhome quite a bit out bush, so 'learnt' what is needed (Air Con and heater for example over here). The 650 is based on everything I could conceivable wish for (Washing Machine, slow cooker, electric heater in the morning etc etc) and my theory is if I work to that then any less used is a bonus. My feeling is that 450 is more likely usage. I do take your point though and certainly will go into the melting pot of consideration.

 

As for the stage of finish - I'm was thinking completely, paint the works mainly because I won't be able to manage or do things from this side of the world (although I do have family back home who could help out) and a complete finish and paint is likely to be easier in one build.

 

I think from the sound of it that to be virtually self sufficient power wise a widebeam is the way to go to accommodate the batteries (I like the sound of the lithium ones) and solar panels needed, but yes, to have access to a greater network narrowboat is a must. More for the old pot.

 

I think I will have to send my sister along to Crick in May!

 

Random points:-

24V batteries - essential for any serious power consumption user.

If you must have a widebeam - then NOT 12ft, I believe there are even more problems than with 10 ft.

Consider NiFe batteries instead of lithium - these latter need care in charging regime and are expensive. NiFes OTOH can take a lot of punbisment. Very popular Stateside where folks use them out-in-the-stick with no public power available. Bimble Solar near me are now stocking them. Quite expensive.

No worries with storage if it's designed in from day one. I have 60 cells on my NB in front of the engine. No worries about weight as the boat needs ballast anyway.

Cain narrowboats also do widebeams at reasonable prices and good looking fitouts - a couple of years ago someone came on here seeking advice about them and I was quite impressed with what they do. Huge waiting list- that says something.

 

Ore you could get a Dutch Barge style boat - much prettier...

[OldGoat]

PS - yes I have come to the conclusion that aft galley is for me. Already have a 2kW generator from our motor-home days. Didn't realise about the Pennine Ring. Yet more for the pot

 

Petrol gennies onboard in the UK are a no-no regulation wise

Better are:-

TravelPower add on to engine

Beta Marine's PropGen - near silent boating

(Beta do both of those)

inbuilt diesel genny - better suited to widebeam boats, from the space point of view.

All my suggestions have good web sites,

[magictime]

if you want space a 70 footer will be much less limiting in cruising range than a fat boat.

 

Not if you're wanting to cruise up North, it won't! Take a map of the Northern waterways, scrub out the Lancaster, the L&L from Wigan to Leeds, the Calder and Hebble, the Huddersfield Broad, the Sheffield and South Yorkshire, the Ouse/Ure/Ripon above York, and the Derwent, and you're left with a sort of Liverpool-and-Greater-Manchester network plus an unconnected Leeds-York-Goole-Wakefield network.

 

I think from the sound of it that to be virtually self sufficient power wise a widebeam is the way to go to accommodate the batteries (I like the sound of the lithium ones) and solar panels needed

 

As everybody has been saying, the sort of electricity usage you're talking about is far in excess of what most people would consider necessary even to enjoy "all mod cons" (assuming you use non-electric options where possible, e.g. for cooking and heating). I really don't see that your solar array and battery bank should need to be so huge that you need a bigger boat just to accommodate them! A narrowboat should easily accommodate three 250W solar panels putting c. 300Ah a day into a 600Ah battery bank, which would surely be ample for day-to-day purposes even if you had to run the generator/engine while running the washing machine, say.

 

And investigate lower-energy appliances. I know several forum members swear by portable twin-tubs for washing. We always used a thermal cooker instead of a slow cooker - does the same job, but the food cooks in its own heat after an initial 10 minutes' simmer on the gas hob - no electricity needed.

[MtB]

I have to say I'm shocked at your 650AH per day figure. I use about 30AH per day (at 24V) living perfectly comfortably on my narrowboat.

[ditchcrawler]

650ah a day(presume at 12v) is a lot, most canal boats use around 100ah.

I use even less than that and have a 240 volt fridge, 240 volt TV 240 volt laptop charger and invertor on 24/7

[dmr]

 

Not if you're wanting to cruise up North, it won't! Take a map of the Northern waterways, scrub out the Lancaster, the L&L from Wigan to Leeds, the Calder and Hebble, the Huddersfield Broad, the Sheffield and South Yorkshire, the Ouse/Ure/Ripon above York, and the Derwent, and you're left with a sort of Liverpool-and-Greater-Manchester network plus an unconnected Leeds-York-Goole-Wakefield network.

 

 

 

Across the system as a whole a 70 footer is much less limiting than a widebeam.

In addition to Manchester and Liverpool (which is great) there is also the Rochdale and Huddersfield Narrow though these are there and back journeys.

And from Manchester can also get up to the Peak Forest for those who need to do ring style cruising.

 

Bristol through to Liverpool, Gloucester and Sharpness, and over to Cambridge is a good cruising range. But yes, I do have a sad moment when we go through Wigan and can't go up the L&L, and even sadder as we pass the Rufford Arm.

 

...............Dave

[magictime]

 

Across the system as a whole a 70 footer is much less limiting than a widebeam.

 

Maybe so, but the OP says he's "looking at the northern routes" in particular. And being "much less limiting than a widebeam" arguably isn't much of a boast! Personally I'd be gutted to think the Yorkshire and Lancashire waterways were (mostly) inaccessible to me.

[David Mack]

If you choose the narrow boat route, you could consider taking the width out to the old standard of 7' beam - not a huge increase in width but having owned boats of 6' 10" and 7' it does make a difference.

And go for 'Birmingham square' i.e. vertical sides to a 7 ft wide baseplate. Most clone craft taper the sides down to a 2m wide baseplate.

[Ally]

We use roughly 50Ah a day at most, and are off grid all the time. If you intend to cc mostly, you will need to keep useage reasonable. However good a size battery bank you have, ....the bigger the bank, the longer the charge required, and you won't want to sit listening to a genny or your engine for hours and hours in the winter when the solar is lower capacity (and not will others) a cocooned fitted genny would help that immensely of course. But what goes down will need to go up again with charge. Fully agree with the earlier comments about air con. ..really rarely required here, not worth the expense to fit or power to run. I would urge you to look closely again at your expected and required useage, and I do think, if cruising very regularly, the travel pack option will suit.

[Robbo]

We use roughly 50Ah a day at most, and are off grid all the time. If you intend to cc mostly, you will need to keep useage reasonable. However good a size battery bank you have, ....the bigger the bank, the longer the charge required, a

 

That's not quite right. In fact depending on what charging equipment you have it could be a lesser time to charge. The biggest advantage of a bigger bank is the amount of times you can go between without charging. This is more beneficial if you have solar or just don't fancy running a genny.

[MtB]

 

That's not quite right. In fact depending on what charging equipment you have it could be a lesser time to charge. The biggest advantage of a bigger bank is the amount of times you can go between without charging. This is more beneficial if you have solar or just don't fancy running a genny.

 

 

It's been pretty well established in the recent battery threads that when the charging device is optimised to suit the battery bank, the charge time is the same regardless of the battery bank size.

 

From 50% SoC on the Smartgauge to about 90% SoC on the Smartgauge takes about three hours in my experience, and the next 10% on the Smartgauge takes a further two hours.

 

The trouble is that if you have expensive batteries worth looking after, you'll need to run an equalising cycle every month or so to recover their full capacity. This can only be commenced once the batteries are fully charged. My particular Smartgauge is usually fibbing when it says 100% and I find I need another two to three hours of charging to get to 100% SoC properly, as measured by a stable tail current for 45 minutes.

 

At this point I can start running the three hour equalising cycle. So that's a total of ten to eleven hours of generator time without a pause once a month, in addition to three hours of genny time every four or five days.

 

Looking after expensive batteries properly is a very time-consuming and noisy affair. No wonder most people consider it too much trouble. But if they don't, their battery capacity progressively reduces and new batteries will be needed in a year or so. And while this is happening the gap between recharges gets ever shorter. The upside is that it takes a progressively shorter time to 80% charge the batteries as their capacity reduces...

Edited January 26, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[OldGoat]

NiFe batteries don't need equalising - just bung the charge in and run the kit until the go flat - then charge again....

 

If you don't believe me looky here -

http://www.bimblesolar.com/batteries/nifebatteries

 

(Usual disclaimer - found them following threads on this forum).

[MtB]

NiFe batteries don't need equalising - just bung the charge in and run the kit until the go flat - then charge again....

 

If you don't believe me looky here -

http://www.bimblesolar.com/batteries/nifebatteries

 

(Usual disclaimer - found them following threads on this forum).

 

 

I considered those then discounted them. They have a pretty major drawback that escapes my memory for now, and no it wasn't the price.

[Robbo]

 

 

It's been pretty well established in the recent battery threads that when the charging device is optimised to suit the battery bank, the charge time is the same regardless of the battery bank size.

 

From 50% SoC on the Smartgauge to about 90% SoC on the Smartgauge takes about three hours in my experience, and the next 10% on the Smartgauge takes a further two hours.

 

The trouble is that if you have expensive batteries worth looking after, you'll need to run an equalising cycle every month or so to recover their full capacity. This can only be commenced once the batteries are fully charged. My particular Smartgauge is usually fibbing when it says 100% and I find I need another two to three hours of charging to get to 100% SoC properly, as measured by a stable tail current for 45 minutes.

 

At this point I can start running the three hour equalising cycle. So that's a total of ten to eleven hours of generator time without a pause once a month, in addition to three hours of genny time every four or five days.

 

Looking after expensive batteries properly is a very time-consuming and noisy affair. No wonder most people consider it too much trouble. But if they don't, their battery capacity progressively reduces and new batteries will be needed in a year or so. And while this is happening the gap between recharges gets ever shorter. The upside is that it takes a progressively shorter time to 80% charge the batteries as their capacity reduces...

If you only need to do one full charge every week, it is less time overall then doing smaller charges during the week especially if you need to charge to more than 80-90%, it will be kinder to the generator as well especially if you have optimised the bulk to be around 75% load on the genny.

 

Example of where I could do with a bigger bank (and a bigger charger)

 

120amp charger

4kw genny

450ah bank (Trojans)

 

At the moment I can't use the charger or the generator fully, so I'm spending more time charging and less efficient generator load.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Robbo

[cuthound]

I considered those then discounted them. They have a pretty major drawback that escapes my memory for now, and no it wasn't the price.

 

Probably the space needed for them and obtaining suitable alternators to charge them.

 

Each cell is 1.2 volts (charge at 1.6 vpc). However as they can be completely discharged without ill effect, they give 50% more usable energy for a given capacity.

 

Edit edited to remove more autowrong induced gobbledygook.

Edited January 26, 2017 by cuthound

[MtB]

Probably the space needed for them and obtaining suitable alternators to charge them.

 

Each cell is 1.2 volts (charge at 1.6 vpc). However as they can be completely discharged without ill effect, they give 50% more usable energy for a given capacity.

 

Edit edited to remove more autowrong induced gobbledygook.

 

 

Well they don't seem that much bigger than LA batteries for equivalent capacity. But the Bimble site has virtually nothing to say about what charge profile is necessary so maybe that was it.

 

Given they have NO drawbacks according to Bimble, and have been around for 100 years, I'm wondering why they are not in universal use instead of lead-acid.

[cuthound]

Bimble are wrong, according to this site http://www.mpoweruk.com/nickel_iron.htm

 

 

Main Disadvantages are:

 

them being very bulky and heavy compared to LA batteries,

 

Taking a long time to charge and a long time to give up their capacity.

[OldGoat]

There you go - a little knowledge....

'Modern' batteries are in fact NiCd, it's just the term NiFe is used in common parlance to distinguish these wet cells from the dry rechargeable varieties. Some where I have a paper written on the subject.

So some folks have gone down the wrong route.

They come in low / medium / high discharge rate. Most I've seen are M type cells

 

Disadvantages are:-

Relatively poor conversion of energy in charging

Wide® voltage swings between discharged / charging / end voltage

Large - less efficient of storage space than lead acid

Cadmium is a nasty substance and I guess most recyclers would have trouble in dealing with them - but then the materials are worth more.

 

Here's a link to some technical details:-

http://www.anu-co.com/Manuals/Saft/Block%20Battery%20Technical%20Manual.pdf

[JJPHG]

Well, I've just switched on this morning to look at my little post and I have to say I'm overwhelmed by the response and comments back. Many many thanks to everybody for taking the time to pass on their experiences, wisdom and knowledge, very much appreciated.

[ditchcrawler]

There you go - a little knowledge....

'Modern' batteries are in fact NiCd, it's just the term NiFe is used in common parlance to distinguish these wet cells from the dry rechargeable varieties. Some where I have a paper written on the subject.

So some folks have gone down the wrong route.

They come in low / medium / high discharge rate. Most I've seen are M type cells

 

Disadvantages are:-

Relatively poor conversion of energy in charging

Wide® voltage swings between discharged / charging / end voltage

Large - less efficient of storage space than lead acid

Cadmium is a nasty substance and I guess most recyclers would have trouble in dealing with them - but then the materials are worth more.

 

Here's a link to some technical details:-

http://www.anu-co.com/Manuals/Saft/Block%20Battery%20Technical%20Manual.pdf

I use to charge several of these, the first in explosion proof hand lamps and later ones supplying power to Fire detection systems, but for the life of me I can't recall how we use to look after them. I know the hand lamps had manual controlled chargers with a meter on the front, but cant remember if it was amps or volts, something tells me it was amps and that they were charged at constant current. It will probably come back to me when I am trying to get to sleep. I have never used them on large loads though.

[WotEver]

Just a note on the 650Ah per day. It would be extremely difficult if not impossible to replace that much on a daily basis.

 

Either the consumption needs to be reduced drastically or we have another case where a cocooned genny is required.

 

I often think that the advice to do a power audit first is rather cart before the horse because the limiting factor one may/most boats is how much battery charge you can produce each day. Really that should be the starting point and then the electrical "wants" should be specified to accommodate the charging capacity rather than doing it the other way round and trying to make the charging capacity fit the demand.

The two go hand in hand. I always suggest it as a 1, 2, 3...

 

1. What does your 'ideal' energy audit come out as?

2. How will you replace that on a daily basis?

 

If 2 < 1 then reduce 1 until you can balance the two.

 

3. Put in a battery bank at least 2.5 times 1.

3 or 4 times might be better.

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, its really recursive. You need to keep going around until you come to a set of results that stand a chance of working reliably.

 

I posted that to try to get the OP to concentrate on the charging side for a while so they could see what might be possible.

[cuthound]

There you go - a little knowledge....

'Modern' batteries are in fact NiCd, it's just the term NiFe is used in common parlance to distinguish these wet cells from the dry rechargeable varieties. Some where I have a paper written on the subject.

So some folks have gone down the wrong route.

They come in low / medium / high discharge rate. Most I've seen are M type cells

 

Disadvantages are:-

Relatively poor conversion of energy in charging

Wide® voltage swings between discharged / charging / end voltage

Large - less efficient of storage space than lead acid

Cadmium is a nasty substance and I guess most recyclers would have trouble in dealing with them - but then the materials are worth more.

 

Here's a link to some technical details:-

http://www.anu-co.com/Manuals/Saft/Block%20Battery%20Technical%20Manual.pdf

Nife (nickel iron) and nicad (nickel cadmium) batteries are not the same and use slightly different chemistries to work.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–cadmium_battery

[WotEver]

Yes, its really recursive. You need to keep going around until you come to a set of results that stand a chance of working reliably.

 

I posted that to try to get the OP to concentrate on the charging side for a while so they could see what might be possible.

Ansolutely. Hence the earlier part of my post...

Just a note on the 650Ah per day. It would be extremely difficult if not impossible to replace that much on a daily basis.

 

Either the consumption needs to be reduced drastically or we have another case where a cocooned genny is required.