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Lutine: yet more grief


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Came from Aynho to Lower Heyford a week ago. Started with a fully charged battery although twas reluctant (turned for many seconds with one deconpressor off). Today I put three fully charged domestics back in, then tried to start the engine. (Fully charged as in have been taken home and charged with a battery charger.

 

One clunk and then nothing. Dead, no attempt to turn the engine. 12.6v from the starter (I have a multi meter) and past the isolator, over 12 at the starter solenoid.

 

Jumping off the domestics makes no difference, I'm not surprised as I don't think this is a battery problem.

 

I'm about to go around checking all contacts. 1st Ade made some sense of the spaghetti which makes this a bit easier but fundamentally she needs the bodge wiring redoing. I had hoped to get her to Dundas for that but I'm running out of time...

 

Thoughts?

 

Also about to fix the domestic isolator which has failed but I guess that's not connected to this problem.

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A very unlikely one, but in the winter on the Ouse I had a starting problem. Turned out that the waves had splashed into the exhaust for the week it was moored and locked the enigne. I discovered this by checking the oil level and finding it WAY above what I left it at

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If this was the case spin it with al the decompressors on but I do not think that is the problem.

 

Was that 12.6 on the starter battery when trying to start or just resting? If its the former then I would suspect solenoid contacts providing the starting cables (including those associated with the ignition switch/start button) may be playing up. Dirty, loose connections etc.

 

It might also be one brush in the motor worn and not making contact. That would leave you with just half the turning over power but if it was this I would expect less than 12.6 volts.

 

I assume that you have used abrasive paper to cleaned the mating battery terminal/post surfaces to bright metal and dressed then with Vaseline before refitting and ensuring they are tight.

 

 

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John V on the other forum suggests this :-

 

He needs to be told that if he gets 12V on the solenoid input to check the other terminal that goes to the starter itself ....... if 0 then solenoid bollixed if 12v starter bollixed possibly sticky or worn brushes so try a tap with a hammer as first (temporary) cure.

and you can also tell him that what comes from banning people ZcIwBIVs514qXCF_BI95.png

-: hope this helps
  • Greenie 3
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This from a concerned ex cwdf member.

Just incase anyone wants to

I notice that Magpie Patrick (a mod but I know nothing else against him apart from him being daft enough to get involved)

has starter problems with Lutine ..... no-one over there seems to have noticed (or possibly knows owt) and he asked at 2.29

 

He needs to be told that if he gets 12V on the solenoid input to check the other terminal that goes to the starter itself ....... if 0 then solenoid bollixed if 12v starter bollixed possibly sticky or worn brushes so try a tap with a hammer as first (temporary) cure.

 

and you can also tell him that what comes from banning people :(

  • Greenie 1
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John V on the other forum suggests this :-

 

He needs to be told that if he gets 12V on the solenoid input to check the other terminal that goes to the starter itself ....... if 0 then solenoid bollixed if 12v starter bollixed possibly sticky or worn brushes so try a tap with a hammer as first (temporary) cure.

 

and you can also tell him that what comes from banning people ZcIwBIVs514qXCF_BI95.png

-: hope this helps

 

Proxy greenie for John V.

  • Greenie 1
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Please lets stop advising people to hit starter bodies with hammers. I am sure it will be OK on MP's starter because I think it is a rather old engine. Modern starters may well use permanent magnet fields and a hammer is likely to smash them. That will cost a new motor.

 

On little motors like water pumps use the heel of a trainer or some such while starters use a block of soft wood.

 

 

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Even if it works? (as it often does on older starter motors).

 

My SII Land Rover starter got a gentle tap most mornings to wake it up.

 

Yes - even if it works. So would a clout with some soft wood. In my view it is irresponsible to advise something that can cause expensive damage unless you know all the details. I so not KNOW what type of starter Lutine uses so unless you are 100% sure hammers are not the best advice to give.

 

However I am happy for you to ignore me until such advice ruins someone's starter.

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MP - if you are close to reasonable parking I will be driving from Oxford to Calcutt tomorrow morning an will happily have a look and a quick test but I have to prep for a course so will not have to much time.

 

If you want me to call in ring 0118 9874285 before about 9pm tonight.

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Thanks all, especially John V for making the effort to communicate from beyond the forum. I miss him and didn't realise he had been banned.

 

Tony, I'm near the mill lift bridge and my own car is less than a hundred yards away. I may ring but even if I don't thank you for such a generous offer.

 

General update, 12.6v across the back of the solenoid until I turn the key, then it drops to about 2 volts. Other than that, you could turn the key and imagine there was no starter at all, there is no sound of anything. Dead solenoid?

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Thanks all, especially John V for making the effort to communicate from beyond the forum. I miss him and didn't realise he had been banned.

 

Tony, I'm near the mill lift bridge and my own car is less than a hundred yards away. I may ring but even if I don't thank you for such a generous offer.

 

General update, 12.6v across the back of the solenoid until I turn the key, then it drops to about 2 volts. Other than that, you could turn the key and imagine there was no starter at all, there is no sound of anything. Dead solenoid?

Is the small wire terminal on the solenoid clean and tight. Does the charging warning light go out when operating the starter button-switch ?

Incidentally your starter motor almost certainly will have brush inspection ports at the rear end of it with a metal band encircling it with single screw securing it. You can slacken the screw off and slide the band off the ports to inspect brush condition and freeness also the the commutator.

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Yes - even if it works. So would a clout with some soft wood. In my view it is irresponsible to advise something that can cause expensive damage unless you know all the details. I so not KNOW what type of starter Lutine uses so unless you are 100% sure hammers are not the best advice to give.

 

However I am happy for you to ignore me until such advice ruins someone's starter.

 

Its a difficult one. A quick hammer tap on a Lucas starter motor got me out of trouble many times, likewise a gentle tap on that awful SU electric fuel pump. Some of us know how to use a hammer as an engineering tool but recommending this approach to others who might not have the same experience can potentially result in them beating 7 kinds of **** out of the poor starter.

 

Car starters are not that easy to get to so I normally used two hammers, place end of wooden shaft of first hammer on starter then hit head of first hammer with head of second hammer.

 

............Dave

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Came from Aynho to Lower Heyford a week ago. Started with a fully charged battery although twas reluctant (turned for many seconds with one deconpressor off). Today I put three fully charged domestics back in, then tried to start the engine. (Fully charged as in have been taken home and charged with a battery charger.

One clunk and then nothing. Dead, no attempt to turn the engine. 12.6v from the starter (I have a multi meter) and past the isolator, over 12 at the starter solenoid.

Jumping off the domestics makes no difference, I'm not surprised as I don't think this is a battery problem.

I'm about to go around checking all contacts. 1st Ade made some sense of the spaghetti which makes this a bit easier but fundamentally she needs the bodge wiring redoing. I had hoped to get her to Dundas for that but I'm running out of time...

Thoughts?

Also about to fix the domestic isolator which has failed but I guess that's not connected to this problem.

Please can you get a moderator to put this in the relevant Forum section,

maybe Boat building & Maintenance, Equipment, Vintage engine????? I'm sure it can be better placed then in General Boating.

 

I'm sure there's a moderator who would know

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You can knock up quite a tune tapping various componants of old engine.

 

I have an old mate who holds me in much esteem when we broke down once on the Peak Forest in our Dawncraft Dandy.

The Honda outboard suddenly lost all drive to the prop.

He tells the story that armed with just a hammer a tapping ita few times it was miraculously fixed, when in reality all i was doing was replacing the shear pin.

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Thanks all, especially John V for making the effort to communicate from beyond the forum. I miss him and didn't realise he had been banned.

 

Tony, I'm near the mill lift bridge and my own car is less than a hundred yards away. I may ring but even if I don't thank you for such a generous offer.

 

General update, 12.6v across the back of the solenoid until I turn the key, then it drops to about 2 volts. Other than that, you could turn the key and imagine there was no starter at all, there is no sound of anything. Dead solenoid?

 

It should drop to the best part of nothing.

 

Even if the batteries are good - losing 2v might well be enough to fail to get the engine turning.

 

With ignition off, use your second favourite big screwdriver (second, as it will have big nick in it soon!) to bridge the big two terminals on the solenoid.

 

Starter should spin but not engaged with the engine. Future progress then depends on: -

  • Still fails to spin, starter bugg**** (but isn't it, or at least the solenoid, newish)
  • Ditto, trouble in the supply. Engine Isolator??
  • Big fat spark and attempts to turn the engine, pinion stuck in engaged mode
  • Starter spins, so far so good, now contortion yourself to do the same after turning the key to pull the solenoid in!

Good luck!

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Om a boat, a tap with a mooring spike is usually easier

 

Richard

Except if you are really stupid like me and you drop the spike into the engine hole and it lands on the starter +ve and the engine body.

 

I broke the "standing high jump off the cruiser stern of a narrowboat" world record that day and bought a new starter motor the next (SR3 in a Harborough Marine)

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General update, 12.6v across the back of the solenoid until I turn the key, then it drops to about 2 volts. Other than that, you could turn the key and imagine there was no starter at all, there is no sound of anything. Dead solenoid?

Then it's one of two things...

1. Dead starter motor

2. Faulty wiring between battery and solenoid.

 

2 sounds far the most likely culprit bearing in mind the reluctant turning over that you noted previously. Check the starter battery terminals (both of them). Does the starter battery have an isolator? If so, check that. Is the large lead to the solenoid making good contact?

 

Good luck

Tony

 

It should drop to the best part of nothing.

Unless he's reading from -ve to the stud (which was my assumption) in which case it should continue to read around 12V.

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That was my assumption also and if that is the case its 2 or a faulty/flat battery. I count any master switch inn trouble as a poor contact.

 

If he really is measuring between the two stater solenoid stud terminals then at the least it tells us the solenoid contact are resistive.

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It absolutely beats me. I give advice and an explanation as to why that advice is given and it seems people simply fail to understand the reasoning. If you search back i think that you will find SirN has posted in a similar vein.

 

You can knock hell out of a wound field starter motor with no ill effects apart from a few dents in the metal. Try it on a permanent magnet motor and you stand a fair chance of wrecking it.

 

There is a major difference between Richard who knows what he is doing tapping a motor and an ordinary boater who has few mechanical skills trying the same.

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