Lutine: yet more grief

[Tony Brooks]

I visited Lutine this morning. We started checking voltages across the battery then clamps (12.5 +) with virtually no drop when the starter clunked - it clunked just once for several more operations of the start key.

 

We then found that checking positive terminals to battery negative gave the expected readings but when the vegetative meter robe was on the engine metal it read between 1.3 and 0.3 volts, varying all the time. This suggested a negative (earth) problem. I had found the negative terminal on the centre domestic battery was loose but did not think to much of it, expecting the engine battery negative to run to the same terminal as the domestic negative. However tracing the engine negative (not easy access) showed that it was connected to this terminal. Tightening it made the starter and other circuits work as expected.

 

The split charge contactor is not working so I advised that a jump lead be placed between engine and domestic batteries when started and taken off when stopped at night.

 

However that is not the end of the problems. Lutine it seems is a very poor starter. It churns over and over, fairly fast even without an decompressors operated but takes an age to fire. There is no exhaust smoke until it does fire. I did think it was an air problem but having stopped it for a moment we had to go through the same procedure again. It seem to start eventually and unfortunately I had run out of time to investigate further.

[WotEver]

So -ve return faulty as expected.

 

The faulty contactor was a good find

 

If she turns over easily with decompression levers closed doesn't that suggest worn bores?

[nicknorman]

Well done Tony!

So -ve return faulty as expected.

The faulty contactor was a good find

If she turns over easily with decompression levers closed doesn't that suggest worn bores?

But then you would expect white smoke before it fired.

[GoodGurl]

Please can you get a moderator to put this in the relevant Forum section,

maybe Boat building & Maintenance, Equipment, Vintage engine????? I'm sure it can be better placed then in General Boating.

 

I'm sure there's a moderator who would know

if you didn't notice the OP is a moderator lol ut it has now been moved

[1st ade]

I visited Lutine this morning. We started checking voltages across the battery then clamps (12.5 +) with virtually no drop when the starter clunked - it clunked just once for several more operations of the start key.

 

We then found that checking positive terminals to battery negative gave the expected readings but when the vegetative meter robe was on the engine metal it read between 1.3 and 0.3 volts, varying all the time. This suggested a negative (earth) problem. I had found the negative terminal on the centre domestic battery was loose but did not think to much of it, expecting the engine battery negative to run to the same terminal as the domestic negative. However tracing the engine negative (not easy access) showed that it was connected to this terminal. Tightening it made the starter and other circuits work as expected.

 

The split charge contactor is not working so I advised that a jump lead be placed between engine and domestic batteries when started and taken off when stopped at night.

 

However that is not the end of the problems. Lutine it seems is a very poor starter. It churns over and over, fairly fast even without an decompressors operated but takes an age to fire. There is no exhaust smoke until it does fire. I did think it was an air problem but having stopped it for a moment we had to go through the same procedure again. It seem to start eventually and unfortunately I had run out of time to investigate further.

 

Tony

 

Many thanks for assisting my Brother! Greenie awarded as the best I can do from many miles away (a journey you have saved me from having to make) but if I get to meet you, the first drinks are on me.

[bargemast]

Excellent job Tony, I'm sure that you left a very happy Patrick behind

 

Peter.

[cuthound]

Tony

 

Many thanks for assisting my Brother! Greenie awarded as the best I can do from many miles away (a journey you have saved me from having to make) but if I get to meet you, the first drinks are on me.

You might have to change your name to 2nd Ade Now!

 

Well done Tony, a man who can talk the talk AND walk the walk!

 

Edited to add congratulations to Tony.

Edited October 14, 2016 by cuthound

[Tony Brooks]

So -ve return faulty as expected.

 

The faulty contactor was a good find

 

If she turns over easily with decompression levers closed doesn't that suggest worn bores?

 

He new about the contactor because it has been disconnected.

 

If it was worn bores I would have expected white "smoke" when cranking and if not that a cloud of black smoke upon starting. It had neither of those. In nay case I understand Richard has done the head gaskets (2 pot air cooled Lister) so I can't see him missing worn bores. The cranking speed may be because the battery is well charged.

 

The lack of smoke makes me think it had air in it, but stopping and almost immediately trying to starts it should have been no problem because it would have bled itself on the first start.

[WotEver]

Gotcha. I bow to your knowledge regarding engines - I'm a complete amateur.

 

Well done

[MtB]

 

We then found that checking positive terminals to battery negative gave the expected readings but when the vegetative meter robe was on the engine metal it read between 1.3 and 0.3 volts, varying all the time.

 

 

An essential piece of equipment in every diagnostic technician's toolbox!

[Tony Brooks]

Gotcha. I bow to your knowledge regarding engines - I'm a complete amateur.

 

Well done

 

Not that I had noticed.

 

 

 

 

An essential piece of equipment in every diagnostic technician's toolbox!

 

[ditchcrawler]

I visited Lutine this morning. We started checking voltages across the battery then clamps (12.5 +) with virtually no drop when the starter clunked - it clunked just once for several more operations of the start key.

 

We then found that checking positive terminals to battery negative gave the expected readings but when the vegetative meter robe was on the engine metal it read between 1.3 and 0.3 volts, varying all the time. This suggested a negative (earth) problem. I had found the negative terminal on the centre domestic battery was loose but did not think to much of it, expecting the engine battery negative to run to the same terminal as the domestic negative. However tracing the engine negative (not easy access) showed that it was connected to this terminal. Tightening it made the starter and other circuits work as expected.

 

The split charge contactor is not working so I advised that a jump lead be placed between engine and domestic batteries when started and taken off when stopped at night.

 

However that is not the end of the problems. Lutine it seems is a very poor starter. It churns over and over, fairly fast even without an decompressors operated but takes an age to fire. There is no exhaust smoke until it does fire. I did think it was an air problem but having stopped it for a moment we had to go through the same procedure again. It seem to start eventually and unfortunately I had run out of time to investigate further.

Well done Tony, while others shout the odds you go out and get it going for him. Greeny

[carlt]

 

However that is not the end of the problems. Lutine it seems is a very poor starter. It churns over and over, fairly fast even without an decompressors operated but takes an age to fire. There is no exhaust smoke until it does fire. I did think it was an air problem but having stopped it for a moment we had to go through the same procedure again. It seem to start eventually and unfortunately I had run out of time to investigate further.

 

Have you tried hitting it with a hammer?

[Tony Brooks]

 

Have you tried hitting it with a hammer?

 

I can't I might smash the rocker covers or the side cover if I tried that

 

Note to the less technical - the injectors are under the rocker cover and the pumps are behind the side cover. This is supposed to be somewhat humorous.

[WotEver]

 

Have you tried hitting it with a hammer?

Tony B - how does the engine run when it's finally started?

[gazza]

 

I can't I might smash the rocker covers or the side cover if I tried that

 

Note to the less technical - the injectors are under the rocker cover and the pumps are behind the side cover. This is supposed to be somewhat humorous.

Ever thought of doing an open mic evening?

[Tony Brooks]

Tony B - how does the engine run when it's finally started?

 

It seems fine. It is smooth across the rev range out of gear but we did not go for a chug (no time). MP seems confident it will eventually start when required but I think it takes far too long.

 

On another topic. I think that when he gets to his K&A mooring fitting a cheap voltage sensitive split charge relay driving the split charge contactor may be the easiest way to sort the domestic battery charging. That way a poorly specified VSR will have no contact problems when it switches the contactor in. Just a thought.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

 

On another topic. I think that when he gets to his K&A mooring fitting a cheap voltage sensitive split charge relay driving the split charge contactor may be the easiest way to sort the domestic battery charging. That way a poorly specified VSR will have no contact problems when it switches the contactor in. Just a thought.

I totally agree. If he can afford an Albright contactor then it'll outlast the boat.

[Phil Ambrose]

I maintain that anyone designing a component for anything mechanical should be made to remove it and refit it to the prototype, if they refuse they should then not be surprised to get said component shoved where the sun don't shine by an irate fitter

This so true, I can recall having to make a "spanner" for BAC to tighten an Allen screw inside a slot!!

The "spanner" had a very short hex to fit the Allen screw at one end and a socket to take a Allen key at the other end, the whole thing was about 5" long by 3/4" wide and 3/8" thick. Inside was a train of tiny gears to transmit the turning motion from one end to the other. The gears were too small for us to cut and I had to go to a company that specialised in making gears for watches.

I'll bet the designer of the component was earning a fortune which was what the "spanner" cost, all to tighten up a Allen screw, there was a much simpler way to do it but our suggestion fell on deaf ears.

Phil

Edited October 14, 2016 by Phil Ambrose

[magpie patrick]

Morning!

 

Thanks to Tony for calling on me! It was, as he said, a loose connection. I'd refitted the domestics and in doing so had failed to tighten the last negative adequately. This last one connected the bank to earth: the starter is connected to earth via the domestic bank... (not my doing)

 

In response to other questions, the engine runs very well once started, it's a joy both to use and to listen to. Several people have asked me about it since Richard fixed in in June, hearing it and asking "is than an ST2". but has to be turned over for quite a while to get it started. Tony has given a more evidence based reason for my suspicion that it is taking a while to draw any fuel and the first several turns are just compressing air. I don't know why. I tend to start it only once each day

if you didn't notice the OP is a moderator lol ut it has now been moved

 

Indeed - by me!

I had a chat with a (surprisingly young) designer from one of the large car manufacturers a few months back. He was explaining how they design stuff on the computer then get a mock-up made to ensure that it fits, then maybe make tweaks etc. I asked him how much consideration was given to future maintenance; how accessible it might be etc. He responded with a blank look.

Edited for auto-incorrect.

 

Erm, Did he advise Mr Catchpole on Lutine's refit? Batteries that could so easily be located in a way that one could lower them in (the terminals are accessible from above) have to be slid in sideways: only you can't slide them as the shelf is next to the bilge. New (at the refit) cross-members holding the deck are in the way.

 

I still haven't found the central heating pump, I know it's somewhere but god knows where he put it... (under the kitchen units I think, so like the shower pump I'll have to go ripping woodwork out to get at it)

[Bee]

I'd have a go with a squirt of Easy Start, if it fired up and ran straight away it could mean that its getting fuel but just won't start, think compression, timing, valves, stuff like that. If it only fires on the Easy Start and won't pick up and run then I would think fuel. Please don't shout at me because I said Easy Start, I just love the smell of Easy Start on a frosty morning.

[dmr]

I'd have a go with a squirt of Easy Start, if it fired up and ran straight away it could mean that its getting fuel but just won't start, think compression, timing, valves, stuff like that. If it only fires on the Easy Start and won't pick up and run then I would think fuel. Please don't shout at me because I said Easy Start, I just love the smell of Easy Start on a frosty morning.

 

I think you should not discuss your sniffing habits till we have secured the relaxation in the forum rules.

 

Some folk say that even engines become addicted to EasyStart and I believe there is a theory to support this claim.

 

..............Dave

[Laurie Booth]

"I just love the smell of Easy Start on a frosty morning. "

 

Napalm is better.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Laurie.Booth

[gazza]

 

I think you should not discuss your sniffing habits till we have secured the relaxation in the forum rules.

 

Some folk say that even engines become addicted to EasyStart and I believe there is a theory to support this claim.

 

..............Dave

They don't get addicted to it, easy start helps worn out engines rumble into life, they continue to wear out so seem addicted to it.

[Sir Nibble]

Well done Tony, while others shout the odds you go out and get it going for him. Greeny

Shout the odds? I saw a calm reasonable discussion that came up with the right answer based on two voltage readings. I thought it a text book example of what can be done with the right information. I take it you are prepared to travel country wide to attend in person from here on?