Lutine: yet more grief

[gazza]

It absolutely beats me. I give advice and an explanation as to why that advice is given and it seems people simply fail to understand the reasoning. If you search back i think that you will find SirN has posted in a similar vein.

 

You can knock hell out of a wound field starter motor with no ill effects apart from a few dents in the metal. Try it on a permanent magnet motor and you stand a fair chance of wrecking it.

 

There is a major difference between Richard who knows what he is doing tapping a motor and an ordinary boater who has few mechanical skills trying the same.

Richard isn't the only one to know his way around a mechanical device

[Tony Brooks]

 

Richard isn't the only one to know his way around a mechanical device

 

No, I never said he was. I simply contrasted his skill level with the likely skill level of many boaters and the potential results of hitting a starter with a hammer.

[gazza]

 

 

 

 

No, I never said he was. I simply contrasted his skill level with the likely skill level of many boaters and the potential results of hitting a starter with a hammer.

Umm, OK.

 

I can feel a new book coming on.

 

Zen, and the art of walloping a starter motor.

 

It would surely fly off the shelves - especially with hard up boaters and classic car enthusiasts.

[Machpoint005]

I've been walloping reluctant starters on various vehicles and plant for 20 years now, maybe Tony has the strength of Hercules? I'm yet to kill one with a hammer or tasty sized bit of bar.

 

Or a judicious tap on the battery terminals (ah, that old Saab V4...)

[gazza]

 

Or a judicious tap on the battery terminals (ah, that old Saab V4...)

My only dalliance with a Saab was an auto 99, it didn't last long.

 

I have an odd desire for one of these though.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/saab/saab-9-3-turbo-x-2008-and-aero-xwd-2008-review/

[RLWP]

Except if you are really stupid like me and you drop the spike into the engine hole and it lands on the starter +ve and the engine body.

 

I broke the "standing high jump off the cruiser stern of a narrowboat" world record that day and bought a new starter motor the next (SR3 in a Harborough Marine)

Who needs a defibrillator.

 

Richard

[adrianh]

I had a forklift that did that, had the starter motor overhauled and fine since. Needed a bump to free the the works or it draw full current without spinning, this will show as low voltage at the starter due to the high current drawn from the battery. Not good to do this too many times as it will ruin them.

If you take the starter motor to a company in Westbury they will check and service it for you. Think they are called BAE. If not contact me for details.

If you get back to Dundas contact me if you need help/advice with rewire.

I live nearby and have cable etc. Did my boat last year.

Edited October 13, 2016 by adrianh

[nicknorman]

 

Thanks all, especially John V for making the effort to communicate from beyond the forum. I miss him and didn't realise he had been banned.

Tony, I'm near the mill lift bridge and my own car is less than a hundred yards away. I may ring but even if I don't thank you for such a generous offer.

General update, 12.6v across the back of the solenoid until I turn the key, then it drops to about 2 volts. Other than that, you could turn the key and imagine there was no starter at all, there is no sound of anything. Dead solenoid?

Drops TO 2v. I think some folk misread that as drops BY 2v. Anyway, that is a high resistance connection in the (pretty simple) wiring between starter battery and engine. Probably just the isolator in between, but don't forget to check the -ve connections between engine and battery -ve too. Also worth checking the voltage on the starter battery when you turn the key just to be sure it isn't an internal,fault with the battery.

[Sir Nibble]

I've been walloping reluctant starters on various vehicles and plant for 20 years now, maybe Tony has the strength of Hercules? I'm yet to kill one with a hammer or tasty sized bit of bar.

I've been overhauling starters for forty years and seen dozens wrecked this way.

2v is not the contact voltage drop. The solenoid is not engaging, MP said so. What we are seeing is the pd between B+ and the open circuit negative of the pull in winding. Put a bit of 30A fuse wire from the bottom (motor) contact and negative and try it.

[gazza]

I've been overhauling starters for forty years and seen dozens wrecked this way.

2v is not the contact voltage drop. The solenoid is not engaging, MP said so. What we are seeing is the pd between B+ and the open circuit negative of the pull in winding. Put a bit of 30A fuse wire from the bottom (motor) contact and negative and try it.

Maybe I need to start having a bowl of weetabix in the morning

[WotEver]

2v is not the contact voltage drop. The solenoid is not engaging, MP said so. What we are seeing is the pd between B+ and the open circuit negative of the pull in winding. Put a bit of 30A fuse wire from the bottom (motor) contact and negative and try it.

Sorry Snib, but if the winding return was OC then we'd still see 12V. 12V dropping to 2V is classic bad wiring territory, surely.

[Sir Nibble]

Maybe I need to start having a bowl of weetabix in the morning

Has every motor you ever hit then worked? If not, how do you know there aren't shattered magnets inside? Most likely you've never met a permanent magnet motor as they are only just getting into heavier duty stuff.

Sorry Snib, but if the winding return was OC then we'd still see 12V. 12V dropping to 2V is classic bad wiring territory, surely.

Maybe open circuit was a bad choice of words, put 10 ohms on the brush contact and it makes perfect sense. NOTE! The OP has said the starter made no noise or movement and the measurement was taken effectivity in parallel with the pull in winding but with any possible voltage drop in the solenoid Sippy byepassed.

Sippy? I meant supply of course.

[WotEver]

Maybe open circuit was a bad choice of words, put 10 ohms on the brush contact and it makes perfect sense. NOTE! The OP has said the starter made no noise or movement and the measurement was taken effectivity in parallel with the pull in winding but with any possible voltage drop in the solenoid Sippy byepassed.

Sippy? I meant supply of course.

Gotcha. Shame Patrick hasn't come back since...

[Sir Nibble]

Actually, thinking this through to it's logical conclusion, engine earth.

[MtB]

Gotcha. Shame Patrick hasn't come back since...

 

 

Probably too busy moderating to have time for boating!

[carlt]

I've been overhauling starters for forty years and seen dozens wrecked this way.

If you have to tap (not whack) your alternator to get it started then I suspect it is on its way out anyway.

 

You have a choice, get it refurbished /replaced or give it a tap until it is beyond refurbishment then replace it.

[WotEver]

Actually, thinking this through to it's logical conclusion, engine earth.

Absolutely. I can't see the solenoid being isolated from the engine.

[1st ade]

There is a major difference between Richard who knows what he is doing tapping a motor and an ordinary boater who has few mechanical skills trying the same.

 

Ah! You've met Magpie then?

[Sir Nibble]

If you can clearly see the big screws that hold the pole shoes then hammer away.

If you have to tap (not whack) your alternator to get it started then I suspect it is on its way out anyway.

 

You have a choice, get it refurbished /replaced or give it a tap until it is beyond refurbishment then replace it.

You are of course right but some mornings I need beating to make me work and I'm not dead yet. (correct at time of going to press)

[gazza]

Has every motor you ever hit then worked? If not, how do you know there aren't shattered magnets inside? Most likely you've never met a permanent magnet motor as they are only just getting into heavier duty stuff.

Maybe open circuit was a bad choice of words, put 10 ohms on the brush contact and it makes perfect sense. NOTE! The OP has said the starter made no noise or movement and the measurement was taken effectivity in parallel with the pull in winding but with any possible voltage drop in the solenoid Sippy byepassed.Sippy? I meant supply of course.

Every one I've clattered has had solenoid issues.

Latter Nippon Denso starters fitted to GM 4.3 V6 engines in our forklift fleet eat the contacts, a firm belt on the solenoid will 9/10 get you out the crap till it can be pulled from service and repaired.

 

Until recently having owned old motors or worked on dirty great big diesels permanent magnet starter motors do not often come across my path.

I have a good idea they are not very common in most boats as well - given that engine tech is basically prehistoric in the ditch crawling world

[Sir Nibble]

From our point of view as boaters, outboards and gennies would be the likely place to find them. Yeah, those nippon denso contacts really wear don't they. But I've never seen brushes worn out on them. Occasionally the clutch goes but mostly a two quid contact set is all that's needed to re-life them.

[carlt]

If you can clearly see the big screws that hold the pole shoes then hammer away.

 

I used to be able to see them but they are now peened flat.

[gazza]

From our point of view as boaters, outboards and gennies would be the likely place to find them. Yeah, those nippon denso contacts really wear don't they. But I've never seen brushes worn out on them. Occasionally the clutch goes but mostly a two quid contact set is all that's needed to re-life them.

Yup, to add insult to injury they are an utter pain to remove from the truck.

Someone at Hyster must have been wetting themselves when they designed the crossmember, I have a feeling they didn't get on with the service department!

 

As you say, modern outboards and gennys the most likely culprit, thankfully my small engine stuff is handraulic start via a rope, pretty reliable system that

Edited October 14, 2016 by gazza

[WotEver]

Yup, to add insult to injury they are an utter pain to remove from the truck.

Someone at Hyster must have been wetting themselves when they designed the crossmember, I have a feeling they didn't get on with the service department!

I had a chat with a (surprisingly young) designer from one of the large car manufacturers a few months back. He was explaining how they design stuff on the computer then get a mock-up made to ensure that it fits, then maybe make tweaks etc. I asked him how much consideration was given to future maintenance; how accessible it might be etc. He responded with a blank look.

 

Edited for auto-incorrect.

Edited October 14, 2016 by WotEver

[gazza]

I had a chat with a (surprisingly young) designer from one of the large car manufacturers a few months back. He was explaining how they design stuff on the computer then get a mock-up made to ensure that it fits, then maybe make tweaks etc. I asked him how much consideration was given to future maintenance; how accessible it might be etc. He responded with a blank look.

 

Edited for auto-incorrect.

I maintain that anyone designing a component for anything mechanical should be made to remove it and refit it to the prototype, if they refuse they should then not be surprised to get said component shoved where the sun don't shine by an irate fitter