Lutine: yet more grief

[MtB]

They don't get addicted to it, easy start helps worn out engines rumble into life, they continue to wear out so seem addicted to it.

 

 

^^^This^^^

 

Using Easy Start doesn't cause an engine to get addicted to it. Easy Start is a work-around to get you out of trouble.

 

The apparent addiction to Easy Start is a result of not bothering to fix the underlying engine fault!

[WotEver]

Shout the odds? I saw a calm reasonable discussion that came up with the right answer based on two voltage readings. I thought it a text book example of what can be done with the right information.

Completely agree. The only slightly snarky comment in the whole thread came from another forum and was wrong anyway.

[Sir Nibble]

Completely agree. The only slightly snarky comment in the whole thread came from another forum and was wrong anyway.

And was greeted with lots of "Oh well done, thank you so much, greenie, greenie".

And like you said was wrong. It's a rare day when a description of symptoms and readings online will give you enough to make a reasonable diagnosis.

[magpie patrick]

as both a mod and the OP could we please not drift into the journey of the snark?

 

Not for the first time I've been impressed by the helpfulness of this forum, and the good natured banter that goes with it. I am particularly impressed and indebted to Tony for coming to the boat and saving me a small fortune on calling someone else out! Also, I suspected it was my re-fit of the domestic batteries but couldn't, for the life of me see how. On top of that, there was a lot of useful advice - I am a wiser man as a result

 

John V, two things about that, whether his advice was accurate or not, he asked for a message to be passed on which is a very high level of goodwill, and I really appreciate it. I would add that I have had off-forum dealings with John V, although I've never met him, regarding support and inspiration during illness. Whatever the issue between him and this forum, he's a good bloke.

[Tony Brooks]

Easy Start

 

If the instructions are not followed to the letter for diesels or if too much is sprayed it can initiate combustion long before TDC compression so the "explosion" is trying to drive the piston down while the flywheel is trying to drive it up. This causes a massive pressure spike that can (not will) snap pidton rings or break the inter ring lands on the piston. I think this is what Dave is talking about.

[carlt]

Easy Start

 

If the instructions are not followed to the letter for diesels or if too much is sprayed it can initiate combustion long before TDC compression so the "explosion" is trying to drive the piston down while the flywheel is trying to drive it up. This causes a massive pressure spike that can (not will) snap pidton rings or break the inter ring lands on the piston. I think this is what Dave is talking about.

Also it is always a bad idea to accidentally spray it onto a paper air filter as the resulting combustion tends to result in an under bonnet fire.

 

Just reading through some of my comments on this thread convince me that I should leave engines well alone.

[MtB]

Easy Start

 

If the instructions are not followed to the letter for diesels or if too much is sprayed it can initiate combustion long before TDC compression so the "explosion" is trying to drive the piston down while the flywheel is trying to drive it up. This causes a massive pressure spike that can (not will) snap pidton rings or break the inter ring lands on the piston. I think this is what Dave is talking about.

 

 

My preference with a reluctant engine is to play a blowlamp into the air intake. Avoids all the risk of early ignition you describe with Easy Start.

 

Best not to do this with a paper air filter though, as Carl has probably also also figured out.

[bargemast]

 

 

My preference with a reluctant engine is to play a blowlamp into the air intake. Avoids all the risk of early ignition you describe with Easy Start.

 

Best not to do this with a paper air filter though, as Carl has probably also also figured out.

 

That's exactly how I used to start an old but still very good Berliet engine during the wintertime early in the morning in freezing weather.

 

Always worked first go like that, never needed start-pilot.

 

Peter.

[dmr]

Easy Start

 

If the instructions are not followed to the letter for diesels or if too much is sprayed it can initiate combustion long before TDC compression so the "explosion" is trying to drive the piston down while the flywheel is trying to drive it up. This causes a massive pressure spike that can (not will) snap pidton rings or break the inter ring lands on the piston. I think this is what Dave is talking about.

 

Pretty similar.

Theory I was told is that Easy Start is usually needed on old worn out reduced compression engines where all the crap on the rings/in the grooves is actually maintaining some compression. The fierce combustion/pressure rise dislodges this crap so thereafter the engine won't start ever again without Easy start.

"EasyStart Starts all engines first time" is it made by the same people who make EasyOuts? "Removes all broken bolts first time".

 

...............Dave

[Bee]

With a good battery and the engine spinning over nice and fast a whiff of easy start will not do a lot of damage but the stuff will detonate and force the piston down the bore if its sluggish, for those who remember starting cars on the handle the pain occurred when the thing fired a fraction before the piston reached the top of the stroke and the handle flew back and whacked you. Oil bath air filters saturated with easy start are another danger too.

[WotEver]

With a good battery and the engine spinning over nice and fast a whiff of easy start will not do a lot of damage but the stuff will detonate and force the piston down the bore if its sluggish, for those who remember starting cars on the handle the pain occurred when the thing fired a fraction before the piston reached the top of the stroke and the handle flew back and whacked you. Oil bath air filters saturated with easy start are another danger too.

That's why, when you swing a prop on a vintage aircraft, you do it with fingers flat on the blade and (supposedly) with only the retarded magneto switched on. A prop kicking back could take your fingers off.

 

Not relevant to Lutine but perhaps of mild interest to some.

[Tony Brooks]

I have been mulling the staring problem over and have come up with a potential theory that might stand investigation by someone with the skills.

 

I wonder if the injector pump rack/control rod has a stiff spot when its in the stop position. If so it might stay in the no fuel position, regardless of the stop lever position, until the vibrations of the spinning engine allowed the governor spring to joggle it into the run position. That would explain no exhaust smoke while cranking and no significant smoke upon starting.

 

Over to Richard and Biz to give their views.

.

 

PS it looks as if the engine has a newish lift pump one it so maybe someone has been trying to solve this problem.

[carlt]

 

 

I have been mulling the staring problem over...

If someone stares at me for too long I give them a tap with a hammer.

[WotEver]

 

I wonder if the injector pump rack/control rod has a stiff spot when its in the stop position. If so it might stay in the no fuel position, regardless of the stop lever position, until the vibrations of the spinning engine allowed the governor spring to joggle it into the run position.

Is that something that can be visually verified without any dismantling?

[Tony Brooks]

Is that something that can be visually verified without any dismantling?

 

No, I think the pump side side cover has to come off but as I am not familiar with the governor controls on anything but SL4s I think we need the more knowledgeable to comment.

[bargemast]

 

No, I think the pump side side cover has to come off but as I am not familiar with the governor controls on anything but SL4s I think we need the more knowledgeable to comment.

 

It's quite likely that Tony Dunkley would have been able to give that answer, he knows the ins and outs of these pumps.

 

Too bad, too late now.

 

Peter.

[RLWP]

 

I have been mulling the staring problem over and have come up with a potential theory that might stand investigation by someone with the skills.

 

I wonder if the injector pump rack/control rod has a stiff spot when its in the stop position. If so it might stay in the no fuel position, regardless of the stop lever position, until the vibrations of the spinning engine allowed the governor spring to joggle it into the run position. That would explain no exhaust smoke while cranking and no significant smoke upon starting.

 

Over to Richard and Biz to give their views.

.

 

PS it looks as if the engine has a newish lift pump one it so maybe someone has been trying to solve this problem.

 

 

It's more likely the temporary stop cable I fitted is not returning the stop control to run

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

I did apply as much force as I could with my hand and the stop lever seemed to fully against whatever it stops against in the run position. I also pushed the cable back in hard and this only resulted in the outer stretching slightly. This was one of my first thoughts but as far as I could see (not very well) it looked and felt as if it was in the run position.

[magpie patrick]

 

It's more likely the temporary stop cable I fitted is not returning the stop control to run

 

Richard

 

I don't think it is, not since you called on it again in Banbury

 

It does take a lot to get it going, and whilst it sounds like it has no fuel the main difference between now and then is the revs the starter motor can get the engine to. with one decompressor off (or on?!?!?) I get the engine going at quite a lick, throw the second decompressor, then it picks up, the less than fully charged batteries just couldn't do that.

 

This wasn't a symptom before it overheated,it started more or less instantly, but it had a lot of other symptoms that, in hindsight, meant it was unhappy in it's pre-Richard's handiwork condition.

Edited October 17, 2016 by magpie patrick

[WotEver]

Was this the engine with the heat shields all upside down and back to front?

[RLWP]

Was this the engine with the heat shields all upside down and back to front?

 

The very same

 

Richard

[WotEver]

Ahh yes, I remember it well.

[RLWP]

We dined with friends

 

Richard

[WotEver]

We dined alone.