mooring for hire boat

[canalnoob]

 

OK, so canalnoob doesn't want opinions only an answer to his question. So I'll answer ........

No, I don't.

 

I'm interested that he describes himself as an Internet Marketeer, yet ignores the first rule about research.

Otherwise why approach a Discussion Forum and get stroppy when it gets discussed? Would he expect a forum of Ford Escort Mexico enthusiasts to find out for him where Avis Car Rental store their cars?

Finally if his main job is Internet Marketing, then he should do some and pick up the phone and ask the marinas and boat yards himself. He'll find the names and numbers on .... errrr .... the internet.

 

I hope he runs his boat hire enterprise a bit more hands on rather than attempting to delegate the boring drudgery to others to do for him.

 

Laurie ...... I know you have experience of working in the world of television especially The BBC. I'm buying a new TV next week, where will 'beloved' allow me to put it?

I've been doing/am doing research. I've read 100s of threads on here but in all honesty there isn't much point in my discussing any sort of business plan when you all seem to think the highest possible turnover I could hope to achieve is £25k per year.

Already said I don't particularly mind people discussing it,

Internet marketing rarely involves using the phone? I already phoned 3 yesterday and no surprise ended up talking to someone who has no idea about stuff like that and I'm still half waiting on a reply from CRT regarding potentially mooring it with them as it says they 'may allow it' for one boat on their website.

I get bad anxiety and don't particularly like ringing people up when I sound like a clueless ***. 'Hi I've got no boat yet but any chance I can moor my future hire boat with you?'. Hense me asking on here, wasn't sure if people who work/own marinas may be on here also.

Edited August 9, 2016 by canalnoob

[Neil Smith]

Where are you seeing this? Having a quick look on 'waterwaysholidays.com' now and I can't find a single 8 birth boat week below £1000 from April-September even on the cheapest possible available boat and booking a year in advance... The average per week for those 6 months for the cheapest 8 birth boat possible would probably be around 13-1400.

Was planning on renting it out for more than 25 weeks too.

 

Better not add I'd try sticking it on airbnb in the winter too, oops

 

Hi,

 

We did not know it was 8 birth, you can hire 2 and 4 berths and they would be a lot cheaper of course.

 

Neil

[RichM]

I've been doing/am doing research. I've read 100s of threads on here but in all honesty there isn't much point in my discussing any sort of business plan when you all seem to think the highest possible turnover I could hope to achieve is £25k per year.

Already said I don't particularly mind people discussing it,

Internet marketing rarely involves using the phone? I already phoned 3 yesterday and no surprise ended up talking to someone who has no idea about stuff like that and I'm still half waiting on a reply from CRT regarding potentially mooring it with them as it says they 'may allow it' for one boat on their website.

I get bad anxiety and don't particularly like ringing people up when I sound like a clueless ***. 'Hi I've got no boat yet but any chance I can moor my future hire boat with you?'. Hense me asking on here, wasn't sure if people who work/own marinas may be on here also.

 

It's all about how you approach it. You could say "Next Spring, I'm looking to moor a boat which I will be letting out. Are you likely to have any suitable moorings available and if so how do I go about securing one?" That way you're not really giving much away. You don't need to tell them that you don't have a boat yet or that your new to the whole idea.

 

You may find a private mooring with parking to be more suitable than a marina or CRT mooring.

[cuthound]

Maintenence might be more than you think, especially if you can't do it all yourself and have to subcontract it out.

 

For example, I had shares in boats for over 20 years, and for the last few years to 2013 (when I bought my own boat) the maintenance averaged £1000 per share, so £12000 per annum. This included annual repaints and blacking to keep the boat looking smart, essential for a hire boat.

[Jerra]

Was planning on renting it out for more than 25 weeks too.

 

Better not add I'd try sticking it on airbnb in the winter too, oops

Speaking as somebody who owns a holiday let in the Lake District I know many that don't manage 50% occupancy in the year. We are classed as unusual with 75 - 80%

 

I thought CRT didn't allow boats to be used for AirBnB.

[David Mack]

I just don't get it. A chap comes up with a great entrepreneurial idea.

 

Just lets look at the economics of this on the back of a fag packet.

 

Capital cost - £40000

 

Revenue say 25 weeks at an average of $1000 - say £25000

 

Annual Running costs

Licence - £3000

Commercial insurance - £1000

Marina - £3000

Maintenance - £5000

Sundries - £1000

 

Total - £13000

 

Gross profit - £12000

 

Capital paid off in 3 years and 4 months

 

What could possibly go wrong with that?

If I was a marina operator II would want significantly more money from someone who wants to use my marina to service a commercial hire boat, than a private moorer. The hire boat would want access to a prime part of the waterfront (not a remote berth), frequent use of water, pump out, fuelling facilities, customer and staff parking, maybe use of workshop facilities etc. That would make the cost rather higher than the figure above.

 

 

Was planning on renting it out for more than 25 weeks too.

You can make it available 52 weeks a year if you like, but there is only so much of a season. 25 weeks letting implies full occupancy from April to September. I think you will be lucky to achieve that. The hire bases I go past usually have a good few boats in, and not earning money, during the non school holiday periods.

[alan_fincher]

Was planning on renting it out for more than 25 weeks too.

 

I don't think you have any chance of getting anything like 25 weeks bookings, unless you are going to set a very low rate at all but peak times.

 

As I have implied already many existing hire fleets do more trade in short beaks than they do whole weeks, so if a boat is out for a long weekend, it may well lie idle or the other half of the week.

 

I have no firm numbers to base it on, but I think it being hired for maybe an equivalent of 12 to 15 weeks throughout the year is a far more realistic number.

 

You would also have to accept that to achieve this, it would likely not be fully available to you to use at the most popular times.

 

I would suggest the hire firms that seem to have boats out over more of the season than others do often achieve this by very heavy discounting and "last minute" deals, on the basis that any income from the boat that exceeds the wear an tear on it is still worth having. Don't bargain with much weeks brining in £1000 plus though - I think often the boats are let for no more than half of this.

[canalnoob]

 

I don't think you have any chance of getting anything like 25 weeks bookings, unless you are going to set a very low rate at all but peak times.

 

As I have implied already many existing hire fleets do more trade in short beaks than they do whole weeks, so if a boat is out for a long weekend, it may well lie idle or the other half of the week.

 

I have no firm numbers to base it on, but I think it being hired for maybe an equivalent of 12 to 15 weeks throughout the year is a far more realistic number.

 

You would also have to accept that to achieve this, it would likely not be fully available to you to use at the most popular times.

 

I would suggest the hire firms that seem to have boats out over more of the season than others do often achieve this by very heavy discounting and "last minute" deals, on the basis that any income from the boat that exceeds the wear an tear on it is still worth having. Don't bargain with much weeks brining in £1000 plus though - I think often the boats are let for no more than half of this.

Well honestly if I can only rent it out for 12-15 weeks then it wouldn't be viable atall. I personally really disagree. I think they'd be charging a lot less than £1200 per week if they couldn't get many bookings in april/september sort of months but I'll have to find out

[Jerra]

I think they'd be charging a lot less than £1200 per week if they couldn't get many bookings in april/september sort of months but I'll have to find out

I have just had a look at a small hire firm (7 boats)

 

April depending on week and size of boat between £880 & £635

 

September (week starting 9th just after the school holidays) £970 & £635

 

So yes a lot less than £1200

 

EDIT: To make it clear that is the range for the rest of September the highest and the lowest prices.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Jerra

[Idunhoe]

Canalnoob, you may well be correct in your assumption that an ex hire boat will come with a safety certificate that complies with the more stringent standards required for hire boats, but, don't forget that such safety certificates need renewing at intervals less that that for private boats.

[Neil2]

I still think it could work, the reason we're not all doing this is the same reason we're not all self employed. Can you imagine what a commitment it would be for one person to be responsible for all the duties and responsibilities of hiring out a narrowboat for 25 weeks solid? (I agree that 25 weeks is highly optimistic BTW.)

 

I believe there is one member of this forum who has just two narrowboats for hire and they operate successfully from a marina, but from what I've heard it's hugely time consuming and they operate at the higher end of the market - you won't be doing that with a £40,000 ex hire boat.

 

But if you are a personable type you could capture the market that likes to deal with small owner operators - I would be attracted to a business like this in fact years ago we used to hire Broads cruisers from a couple that had just two boats because I liked the idea of dealing directly with the "gaffer", rather than booking with Hoseasons.

 

 

[Graham Davis]

I just don't get it. A chap comes up with a great entrepreneurial idea.

 

Just lets look at the economics of this on the back of a fag packet.

 

Capital cost - £40000

 

Revenue say 25 weeks at an average of $1000 (1) - say £25000

 

Annual Running costs

Licence - £3000

Commercial insurance - £1000 (2)

Marina - £3000

Maintenance - £5000

Sundries - £1000 (3)

 

Total - £13000

 

Gross profit - £12000

 

Capital paid off in 3 years and 4 months

 

What could possibly go wrong with that?

 

1/ On a boat of the price the OP expects to buy I suspect the weekly average will be a lot lower than this.

 

2/ And the rest!! Too low.

 

3/ Reckon you can double that.

 

Couple of questions to the OP:

Who is going to maintain your boat?

Who is going to respond to call-outs?

Who is going to do the cleaning on return?

Who is going to do the laundry?

Who is going to do the hand-overs?

Do you have any experience of canal boating so that you can answer questions form hirers?

Edited August 9, 2016 by Graham Davis

[zenataomm]

Yeah I'd rather start it with 1 so its not so much risk. Thats what I was meaning by the 'low risk high reward', if I can show one boat is profitable then its easy to scale up, just get more boats. Also don't need to register for VAT if I stay under £83k per year turnover to start with

 

I'd suggest you do register for VAT if only so you can claim it back on the amazing amount of things you're going to have spend money on in a hurry.

Every time your customer phones you because something has stopped working you're not going to drive miles to the bridge nearest to them and walk miles down a towpath to check it out, without having bought a spare part.

If you did, you'd have to do a second journey with the part which you will probably have bought from the nearest supplier (not necessarily the cheapest).

Anyway a decent accountant should save you what he costs you.

 

In your shoes my biggest unplannable worry would be in the event of a major issue with the boat stopping it being available for next week's customers. Not only would you have to pay professional rates to get it recovered and repaired it might even need slipping.

You'd then pay premium rates to hire a replacement which might not be in a convenient location for your customers planned trip, who might then expect a discount.

I know there's "no risk no gain" in life having been self employed and in business myself. However I'd want to minimise as many of the risks as I could, which would mean a capital investment nearer to £60 - £80K and me doing all of the maintenance and turn round duties.

 

Just a thought ........

[Sea Dog]

 

But if you are a personable type...

 

Hmm, reading some of the interactions so far, not necessarily a great start on that front!

[Neil2]

Hmm, reading some of the interactions so far, not necessarily a great start on that front!

A bit off topic perhaps but I wouldn't judge anyone on the forum until/unless I met them face to face. I've experienced this many times, someone who comes across a bit curt, even rude, in email correspondence say, often turns out to be quite affable in "real life". And it's sometimes the other way round...

[Sea Dog]

A bit off topic perhaps but I wouldn't judge anyone on the forum until/unless I met them face to face. I've experienced this many times, someone who comes across a bit curt, even rude, in email correspondence say, often turns out to be quite affable in "real life". And it's sometimes the other way round...

 

You're right, of course, Neil. Nevertheless, it made me giggle after having seen this repost on the very first page...

 

I posted a question, I didn't ask for opinions on it. If people want to give their advice thats cool but really not interested in reading your stupid troll posts

 

We can hardly fail to see the irony in the mention of being a personable type, eh?

[MHS]

Canalnoob, have you considered advertising and marketing methods and costs? If you are going to compete with well established competitors what is your USP?

 

They will offer a choice of boat sizes and layouts. Many will provide a choice of cruising areas.

[keith.]

Hi

 

I'm hoping to buy a boat next week partly to rent out for holidays. Just wondering if anyone knows of any marinas that would be ok with me mooring it there and obviously having people park there for the week etc? Preferably in the South

 

Thanks

http://www.pillingslock.com/

 

Pillings Lock Marina have at least 1 hire operator.

 

http://www.charnwoodboathire.co.uk/index.html

Edited August 9, 2016 by keith.

[Jerra]

http://www.pillingslock.com/

 

Pillings Lock Marina have at least 1 hire operator.

 

http://www.charnwoodboathire.co.uk/index.html

Their price range is interesting too never going above £1000 even in high season.

[Exturnaroundman]

As a long time lurker,ex live aboard and having spent several years working for hire fleets, I hope the OP doesn't mind a few extra comments to those already posted.

 

As well as the enhanced bsc you need a landlords cert for the gas yearly. This has to be done by a gas safe engineer certified to work on LPG for boats (caravan and house cert doesn't count).

 

As others have mentioned you need spares, and lots of them, if it can break, it will.

 

Interior, at least 3 sets of bedding, ideally 4, to cover short breaks. Spare mattress(s) for little poppets accidents. Lots of wine glasses, crockery to cover all the breakages. Spare tv, radio, booster, light bulbs, water pump etc.

 

Toilets, go for dump thru, but have all spare parts, if macerator have spare pan and control panel.

 

Engine wise, full set of batteries, alternators, starter motor, gearbox, drive plate, control cables, all filters.

 

Heating, if diesel a complete eberspacher/webasto/bikini replacement unit (so you can then get the one you took out repaired). Gas heating is a no no unless you are gas safe qualified to repair it.

 

Boat hiring is a costly business to be in. As others have said, boat sponsorship, or buying into an existing business that has the infrastructure may be worth looking into.

[Poster girl]

Pillings Lock have/had a couple of single hire boats moored there. We used one of them in the about 5 years ago and I've spoken with the other owner, both of them do/did their own turnaround and used RCR for engineering problems. If you decide to go ahead with it add yourself to the late bookings part on Canal Junction, before we bought our boat we used this on a regular basis and you can offer the boat on really flexible terms especially if you're able to do turnarounds yourself or find someone flexible enough to do it for you. I reckon you would be looking at between £900 and £1200 per week, about two thirdsthat amount for a long weekend depending on what the boat's like and how many it sleeps. Let it in the winter when many hire companies close and so long as it's mechanicaly sound and warm you could get a reasonable return. Good luck!

[canalnoob]

 

I'd suggest you do register for VAT if only so you can claim it back on the amazing amount of things you're going to have spend money on in a hurry.

Every time your customer phones you because something has stopped working you're not going to drive miles to the bridge nearest to them and walk miles down a towpath to check it out, without having bought a spare part.

If you did, you'd have to do a second journey with the part which you will probably have bought from the nearest supplier (not necessarily the cheapest).

Anyway a decent accountant should save you what he costs you.

 

In your shoes my biggest unplannable worry would be in the event of a major issue with the boat stopping it being available for next week's customers. Not only would you have to pay professional rates to get it recovered and repaired it might even need slipping.

You'd then pay premium rates to hire a replacement which might not be in a convenient location for your customers planned trip, who might then expect a discount.

I know there's "no risk no gain" in life having been self employed and in business myself. However I'd want to minimise as many of the risks as I could, which would mean a capital investment nearer to £60 - £80K and me doing all of the maintenance and turn round duties.

 

Just a thought ........

If registering for vat is beneficial then the business will be a failure anyway. Obviously theres a lot that can be reclaimed but not as much as giving away 1/6th of your turnover (if its successful anyway).

The boat I'm looking at is 12-13 years old but it has a 1 year old engine and 3 year bsc certificate. I'm going to have it repainted which I'd want to have done anyway. Its a 12 birth boat. I'm hoping to rent it out for:

10 weeks at a average of £1500=£15,000

20 weeks at a average of between £1000-1250=£20,000-25,000

20 weeks at around 750 per week=15,000. I may just have it on airbnb for some of this time

 

I'll be happy with anything over £35k in the first year. Advertising is the part I'm good at, I assume the big websites that have lots of hire companies boats on are affiliate sites, I'll make my boat the cheapest for anything above a 8 birth boat and I assume they take 10-15% of the sale.

Then I'll use pay per click ads from google and facebook. Thats what my main business does, hoping to get customers for between £100-150 each. This is what my main business is paid to do for other businesses.

In the second year I should get more word of mouth bookings and returning customers hopefully.

 

I'll have to learn how to do some of the maintenance and do hand over myself at the start but if its successful and I get 2 boats then hopefully I can someone £150-200 each week to do it for me. If anything goes wrong then I'll pay for it to be fixed and pay someone to do call outs.

Hoping that maintence costs and depreciation are around £12k or less per year.

License just under £2k

insurance around £2k

Someone to do call outs, no idea but hopefully less than £1k

advertising costs £5-10k

Mooring £2-5k

 

 

Hoping long term costs will be £20-25k and income £45-50k but anything over £10k profit I'd be have with in the first year

Edited August 10, 2016 by canalnoob

[RLWP]

Heard anything from CRT yet?

 

Richard

[canalnoob]

Nah, It did say they take 10-15 working days to reply, think its been about 8.

Sorry for sounding so rude again before again btw, just was expecting the 101 reasons why not to start a narrow boat business lol

[haggis]

Is there much demand for a 12 berth boat? Don't think I see many about.

 

haggis