Survey failure - worthless boat- any advice?

[nyima77]

Brian: Well yes - I could just put it on private sale and keep my fingers crossed the buyer doesn't ask for a survey. But it should be obvious from what I've said that all I want to do is get a fair price for it (if the fair price is not much, and we've been ripped off, that's our bad luck). I don't think I'm relying on anyone here just asking experienced boaters for their view on what to do next (or are you telling me everyone on here is employed by the broker too - or their competitors maybe? How big is this conspiracy and how paranoid should I become). If everyone had said 'tough, sorry, your boat's obviously doomed' then we might have thought twice about wasting money on our own survey, or just taken whatever the broker cared to offer.

 

Richard - yes it is good here, thank you.

[wrigglefingers]

A boat will not actually sink until some part of the hull reached 0.0mm thickness.

And even then it will take some time if it's a spot of hull pitting.

[Chertsey]

https://www.basic-boat.com/

That's them. 03333 219431. Nice human people to deal with too. Although to be perfectly precise and accurate, my premium this year was £71.95 including insurance tax.

 

Fully comp insurance for an old boat with no flash fit out or expensive contents is just a take on.

[BilgePump]

I remember a hire boat 50'ish that was much worse (leaking) about 20yrs ago being lifted out. The marina who owned it then rented it out on the hard standing to two students. When it went I very much doubt it was scrapped. Many sea going boats are 3mm, 3rd party inland insurance less than £100, your boat may not be perfect but is far from worthless.

[Chertsey]

Basic Boat. I have 3 boats all insured on one policy with Basic Boat Liability Company. Iirc it was £80 per year and that includes coastal use. Wording is any boat you own with no boat name on the policy.

3rd party only to cover legal requirements

I don't believe in fully comprehensive. I know it is not a lot more money for a sound boat but I think insurance (other than 3rd party) is a scam.

The broker mentioned is well known for pulling fast ones despite the cut being a generally slow paced place

Wording on mine is any *one* craft. I just checked as I wondered if I'd been wasting my money getting a second policy for the butty.

[chubby]

A very good thread with , as is often the case , very helpful advice . I hope the owners of the boat in question begin to feel a bit better about things .

 

My question to those more knowledgeable would be :

 

If the steel is considered ok & insurable at the 3.7 mm thickness then is there any mileage in considering the idea of protecting the hull by using twin pack epoxy instead of bitumen in future .?

 

If it is then it will be reasonably costly to get the work done , but may go some way to helping reassure the OP that the hull is more efficiently protected and provide more peace of mind ?

It will protect without the extra weight of more over plating & must cost less too ?

 

Is this in any way worth considering ?

Edited July 21, 2016 by chubby

[magnetman]

Wording on mine is any *one* craft. I just checked as I wondered if I'd been wasting my money getting a second policy for the butty.

Mine too

 

I only ever use my boats seperately so unless one of the ones which is moored up suddenly explodes damaging another person or their property at the same time as the one I am navigating in crashes into another boat I think its OK.

 

I'm not a lawyer

 

Definitely worth checking it if you arr towing a second boat.

 

Typo

Edited July 21, 2016 by magnetman

[Richard10002]

Yes we'd wondered whether it was worth the cost of a second survey - or if we'd be throwing good money after bad to get same advice (i.e. only option is to do work that isn't actually possible without sinking the boat). Can anyone recommend a trustworthy surveyor? It's Northants area.

 

Steve Hands at Hands on Marine - he did ours in 2011, and I was more than impressed with his inspection, explanations and report.

 

The advert is a matter of public record and, if you are trying to sell your boat, the wider it is seen, the better for you. So what if the marina is identified? I have a friend who has bought 2 boats without survey, knowing that they werent good, but they were cheap. He sold the first one again to buy his current one.

 

I presume that, if you hadnt been planning to sell, you would have carried on using the boat without concern. A lot of boats have some pitting - they dont sink, they change hands, and life goes on. Take a deep breath, get some independent opinions and advice, and keep trying to sell your boat

[WotEver]

 

And WotEver - the can of worms? (better we know now than more bad news...) Is there some kind of steelworm that I don't know about?

Actually, there is a 'steel worm' microbe but that's unlikely to be your issue.

 

Where has the boat been moored over the last 4 years and has it been connected to shore power? When was it last blacked? How good are your anodes?

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

This is all getting quite convoluted

 

If the hull was overplated with 4mm, it will be more than 4mm thick.

 

I haven't seen any evidence that the surveyor passed off the work, just made recommendations

 

I haven't seen the survey so i don't know if the latest plating is to be where the old overplating was, or on parts left unplated last time, with the recommendation that previous plating was replaced

 

Richard

Well I did ask for clarification about whether the surveyor had signed off the overplating, but had already noted this in the original post....

 

4 years ago we bought a 30' Springer - following a hull survey done by the owner the base was replated with 4mm plating and the surveyor signed to say the work had been done.

Craig Allen, as is obvious from the recommendations regularly made, seems to be a very reputable and experienced surveyor, which is why I still think that I would be seeing if he would have a conversation about this boat before taking any further action on it.

 

Personally I would be trying that before I took many of the other routes being suggested, such as commissioning your own survey using a different surveyor. It is possible that a conversation with Craig may well sort out what appears to be conflicting information, and that OP has not been given the full side of the story.

 

As far as.....

 

If the hull was overplated with 4mm, it will be more than 4mm thick.

 

 

Well, yes, obviously, but I would say that with overplating that is kind of irrelevant. If that 4mm actually corrodes through to the point that water can get in to whatever is left of the original plating underneath, then I would say there is no guarantee that that bit is watertight - the boat was overplated in the first place for a reason. The overplated area will clearly be physically stronger and more rigid than simple 4mm plate, but in terms of how much metal can you lose before the boat might leak, my take would be 4mm. That said, it sounds like very little of the 4mm is lost - hence why this is, as you suggest, confusing.

 

Talk to Craig Allen - it can't make things worse, and could well make things a whole heap better than the original post.

 

[RLWP]

Craig Allen, as is obvious from the recommendations regularly made, seems to be a very reputable and experienced surveyor,

 

An interesting paradox, Alan. If he is a reputable surveyor, can he reveal what is in his survey commissioned by someone else?

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

Can anyone recommend a trustworthy surveyor? It's Northants area.

 

I'll say it one more time.

 

This may ultimately be a sensible thing to do, but try talking to Craig Allen first.

If there is any prospect he is prepared to explain to you what he thinks is required now so soon after the previous replating, what have you got to lose by at least asking the question.

 

I'm seriously wondering if your potential purchasers have misunderstood the actual work required, and it is actually far less bad than what you now believe.

 

I really can't understand how this boat could now need so much additional steel added to it that it becomes a liability, unless there is something that has not yet been stated at all in this thread.

[alan_fincher]

 

An interesting paradox, Alan. If he is a reputable surveyor, can he reveal what is in his survey commissioned by someone else?

 

Richard

 

Well I know one surveyor that is very well regarded by many, and I have found him very willing to talk to me about more than one boat that I might have purchased, and one that I eventually did.

 

Maybe that is unusual, and I guess they will all have different ways of operating, but as the OP owns this boat, I can't see why the surveyor would be being unprofessional if he were prepared to discuss with the owner what has been found.

 

I have acknowledged that he may well not be prepared to, and if he isn't that would also seem fair enough to me.

 

My point is, how can it possibly make things any worse to try asking. A refusal will leave you no worse of at all.

 

Guess who I will take my business to when I want to get a boat surveyed though. If they already know the boat, and are prepared to tell me it is not a complete duffer, (or that it is!), I know whether to proceed to survey stage, (or not!).

[MtB]

\I too think it would be worth picking up the phone and talking to Craig Allen.

 

Given the broker appears to be *******, and I and a number of others here have personal experience of their dishonest dealing, it wouldn't surprise me if he denies carrying out the supposed second survey.

Edited July 26, 2016 by wrigglefingers

[Liam]

Not that you want to play games with brokers and waste anyone's time but a second opinion may help?

[nyima77]

My partner is going to give Craig Allen a call and see what he says. As you say, we have nothing to lose. We haven't actually seen the survey remember, just had bits of it read to us on the phone by the broker. We're also going to go down at the weekend and ask for the paperwork so we can take a copy of the old survey.

 

I really can't understand how this boat could now need so much additional steel added to it that it becomes a liability, unless there is something that has not yet been stated at all in this thread. Well quite - given we bought it as newly replated 4 years ago we really didn't expect the hull to be a problem.

 

Where has the boat been moored over the last 4 years and has it been connected to shore power? When was it last blacked? How good are your anodes?

In a marina with frequent weekends and holidays out on the cut. Yes it was connected to shore power in the marina. Taken out and blacked last year and the anodes (which were also new 4 years ago) were checked then. We haven't moored it in an acid bath or beaten it with hammers.

 

The advert is a matter of public record and, if you are trying to sell your boat, the wider it is seen, the better for you. So what if the marina is identified?

Just feeling a bit vulnerable in that they still have our boat. Until we decide on a course of action (and can get time off work to remove it if needed) don't want to p* them off and be asked to leave. Plus we have no evidence that they're doing anything dodgy - from their point of view we could be just a couple of disgruntled customers who don't like being told their boat's not worth what they paid for it. The boat's still listed on their site, at the original price, as under offer - if anyone does want to know which boat it is, happy to message you the link.

[RLWP]

My partner is going to give Craig Allen a call and see what he says. As you say, we have nothing to lose. We haven't actually seen the survey remember, just had bits of it read to us on the phone by the broker.

 

My understanding is that the survey is the property of the person who commissioned it - i.e. the buyer who dropped out. I wonder if you could buy the survey off them? It has no value or use to them now and this would cover some of their lost costs

 

Richard

[WotEver]

 

My understanding is that the survey is the property of the person who commissioned it - i.e. the buyer who dropped out. I wonder if you could buy the survey off them? It has no value or use to them now and this would cover some of their lost costs

 

Richard

Excellent post sir!

[MtB]

This bit about 4.0mm plate pitting to 3.7mm bothers me. It simply isn't a problem. Pits 0.3mm deep are little more than surface texture. Even if it is electrolytic erosion and continues at the same rate in the future, at 0.3mm in four years, the boat will take another 49 years to sink according to my calculator. The boat doesn't need overplating again because of pitting 0.3mm deep.

 

Secondly, it is technically inappropriate to overplate a boat built originally from either 3/16" imperial or 4mm metric steel plate with 5mm. The bit about it be uninsuraanble is simply rubbish. If it were true it would be common knowledge that Springers can only be insured third party.

 

Craig Allen is a sensible bloke and I can't imagine him making either of these two recommendations. I'd raise these two points with him specifically if I were you.

 

Richard's suggestion that the withdrawing buyers sell you the survey is a good one too. Craig will need to agree this so that alone is a good reason to call him.

[WotEver]

 

Where has the boat been moored over the last 4 years and has it been connected to shore power? When was it last blacked? How good are your anodes?

In a marina with frequent weekends and holidays out on the cut. Yes it was connected to shore power in the marina. Taken out and blacked last year and the anodes (which were also new 4 years ago) were checked then. We haven't moored it in an acid bath or beaten it with hammers..

Do you have an isolation transformer or a galvanic isolator fitted? If the latter have you checked it recently?

 

If neither then that explains the pitting.

 

Tony

[BruceinSanity]

We haven't actually seen the survey remember, just had bits of it read to us on the phone by the broker. We're also going to go down at the weekend and ask for the paperwork so we can take a copy of the old survey.

Given who we think the broker is, that alone would make me deeply suspicious.

[nyima77]

Oh it gets better. The broker now tells us that there is no survey report. It was never written. Craig came to do the survey, the prospective buyers were present, when he told them what work would be needed on the hull they said 'we've heard enough' and pulled out, agreeing a price with Craig for his time. (When we spoke to them last week, after the sellers withdrew, the person claimed to be quoting Craig's report about needing 5mm plating).

 

When my partner suggested we get now commission our own survey, they said 'it will have to be Craig, no-one else will touch it now'.

 

If we can get the insurance sorted I'm tempted just to take the boat out of there and start over with a new surveyor. There are too many anomalies - at best the brokers don't have a clue as different people tell us different stories each time we speak to them.

[Airfix Kid]

www.basic-boat.com

 

You can have your insurance by 10:15

[alan_fincher]

I've just PM-ed you, but you have posted the above since.

 

So Craig Allen has been over the boat, but not written up a survey report?

 

So the survey can't be the property of your prospective purchaser, because it doesn't exist, does it?

However Craig Allen must have done enough work to produce the list of remedial actions that are supposed to have scared them off.

So why not ask him how much of the survey was actually completed, and, if the answer is "most key points", see if you can negotiate a deal for him to write it up for you.

If the broker is who many of us believe it is, I think you need to tread very carefully.

When my partner suggested we get now commission our own survey, they said 'it will have to be Craig, no-one else will touch it now'.

 

This is nonsense, of course. Total, nonsense, but I'm sure you know that!

[MtB]

Oh it gets better. The broker now tells us that there is no survey report. It was never written. Craig came to do the survey, the prospective buyers were present, when he told them what work would be needed on the hull they said 'we've heard enough' and pulled out, agreeing a price with Craig for his time. (When we spoke to them last week, after the sellers withdrew, the person claimed to be quoting Craig's report about needing 5mm plating).

 

When my partner suggested we get now commission our own survey, they said 'it will have to be Craig, no-one else will touch it now'.

 

If we can get the insurance sorted I'm tempted just to take the boat out of there and start over with a new surveyor. There are too many anomalies - at best the brokers don't have a clue as different people tell us different stories each time we speak to them.

 

So my suggestion that the second survey report was fiction turns out to be true.

 

Speak to Craig. I bet he gives you a totally different spin on it.

 

Bear in mind I suspect ******* are ex-estate agents, and bring their ........ estate agent ways with them to boat selling. As you have found out over the fictitious survey report supposedly read out to you over the phone.

 

Their comment about having to stick with Craig as no other surveyor will touch it is bobbins too. A lie, basically. Ring Trevor Whitling and see. I bet he'll survey it for you.

 

I'm staggered you're only tempted to take the boat away. The decision for me would be cut and dried after this revelation!

Edited July 26, 2016 by wrigglefingers