Historic long term value

[barmyfluid]

Being finally in the position to buy my liveaboard, I'm going over to see Baildon this weekend, a 1936 converted Town class butty:

 

http://www.aqueductbrokerage.co.uk/index.php/boats-for-sale/boat/baildon

 

I know the general thought seems to be that buying an historic boat can (and usually is) a money pit experience, but bearing in mind Baildon has had fairly recent rebottoming/footing and has what should be a solid, desirable (if expensive to repair) engine, what general thoughts would be about historic boats/engines retaining long term value over a modern boat?

 

I bought my Series III land rover with the idea that if I keep it in reasonable repair, it's never going to be worth less than I paid for it and a 'car for life' should I wish it. It's historic, iconic...errr...occasionally colonic when it jumps out of gear going round corners....but it's so far I've been correct in my thinking & it's actually gone up in resale value, all the while being an absolute joy to own and drive every day (it's my driveaboard). Yes, it's had loads of work already, but no more cost than many cars I've owned which are now scrap. However, do people think that rationale translates to an historic boat in generally solid condition to start with? Not that there'll be much rational thinking if I fall in love.....

 

Andy

 

 

[John V]

My boat will certainly be worth more than I paid for her, as she was a total wreck and I bought her for about her scrap value.

However ...........we won't go into how much I have spent on her since

[zenataomm]

I think you've got it sussed and know what you're talking about ...... especially the heart over head thingy.

Good luck.

 

It's not the best attempt at a Big Woolwich counter, but would look a lot better if the cant was extended around the sides of the deck and painted a different colour to the top band ...... only saying

[alan_fincher]

A few random thoughts.......

 

1) Although there are some very excellent yards that specialise in restoration and repairs of historic boats they are few and far between, and their services very much in demand. It is specialist work to do it well, and I would not willingly put a 1930s historic boat with someone that had a good reputation as a steel worker, but little experience of 80 year old riveted hulls. One of mine currently needs work, and it is not simply a matter there being a choice, and just getting it don. If you want it done quickly, (or have a situation that forces that!), you may find it hard to get someone without a long wait, (although they will always try to deal with real emergencies if they can).

 

2) In my view a converted butty like Baildon will never have quite the same enthusiast appeal as the equivalent boat originally built as a motor. I would suggest that this will always to some degree reflect what it can be resold for. Being blunt, (so apologise if you fall in love with it), the "new" counter stern is doing it no favours, being far to deep for a "Town Class" motor. It has presumably been done to reduce draught, but in my view visually it does the boat no favours. Others may disagree, but if something like that galls with otherwise potential purchasers like I might have been, again I would suggest it affects value now, and in the future.

3) It is probably "politically incorrect" to say so, but there are mixed views about boats that were converted by Malcolm Braine. I think a fair précis of what several people have said to me is that some were done very well, but others very much less so, depending on staff and materials available. There are certainly some boats that have recently had very expensive work done on the to cut out Braine steelwork and replace, so I would say tread with caution, and get a survey, unless you are prepared to take a bit of a gamble.

[Derek R.]

Hull and fore end of an ex-working boat - the back end resembling an ex-working boat.

 

The the enthusiasts (for ex-working boats) eye(s) will immediately see and know the boat, and some may recommend doing a proper job on the back end. This will be very expensive, and in the end, you will still arguably have a mongrel of a boat which should reflect in the purchase price now, and if kept in good condition over the years, be reflected in the sale price later. But that later price will depend on not just the condition of the boat, but of the canal infrastructure over the ensuing years - and what the market is like - no crystal balls available.

 

But if it ticks all the boxes for what you want, and you are happy with what it is, as it is - and - if you fall in love with it . . . . what else is there to say? Except maybe - Land Rovers are cheaper to run/maintain than an ex-working boat.

[barmyfluid]

Thanks for the input so far, all very useful to know.

 

I'm not the slightest bit of an 'enthusiast' as far as working boats go other than an overall appreciation of their history and looks, and I can see straight off Baildon is a mongrel of what she once was, with odd bits like the Dickenson stove being nautical rather than narrowboaty....I can see it's never going to appeal to a purist, but I think for someone who'd like an 'in the spirit of' working boat with at least some proper history it'd appeal....thing is, I do have to live/work aboard whatever I have, couldn't just have a boatmans cabin or live under a tarp on a butty on a 'proper' working boat, so yep, it ticks my boxes.

 

I'll issue my partner with a tazer with instructions to take me down if I reach for my checkbook with glazed eyes.....

[junior]

Thanks for the input so far, all very useful to know.

 

I'm not the slightest bit of an 'enthusiast' as far as working boats go other than an overall appreciation of their history and looks, and I can see straight off Baildon is a mongrel of what she once was, with odd bits like the Dickenson stove being nautical rather than narrowboaty....I can see it's never going to appeal to a purist, but I think for someone who'd like an 'in the spirit of' working boat with at least some proper history it'd appeal....thing is, I do have to live/work aboard whatever I have, couldn't just have a boatmans cabin or live under a tarp on a butty on a 'proper' working boat, so yep, it ticks my boxes.

 

I'll issue my partner with a tazer with instructions to take me down if I reach for my checkbook with glazed eyes.....

Have you looked at Satellite? Think it's on brokerage with Virginia Currer.

[X Alan W]

Has any one any info on what model "Seffle" was fitted a 25 Hp or one of the "diddy" 8/9 Hp models. Just curious as a past Seffle owner.

[barmyfluid]

25hp according to this:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30351

[FadeToScarlet]

There are a couple of things that go with historic boat ownership (or even custodianship?) that Alan has touched on above, but which need to be considered.

 

It is certainly worth getting to know other enthusiasts, such as by joining the Historic Narrowboat Club. Like other boats, sometimes they are sold by word of mouth- with an owner choosing who they would like to buy it- or advertised internally, in the newsletter, as owners (some of whom have owned the boats for a considerable time- the person we bought our boat from lived aboard for 35 years) want them to go to enthusiast owners, who will care for the boats properly.

 

Navigation is another issue. Old boats tend to spread with Age- like people!- and some, like the GU boats, were built wider than modern boats, when locks were better cared for. If you have a survey, choose a surveyor who knows historic boats, and have the width measured. Over 7' may cause issues in some locks; for example, ours, at 7' 3/8" at the widest point, will not get up the Llangollen canal because of Hurleston bottom lock. Other locks known to be tight are a couple of those at Napton (top lock? Can't remember) and the bottom lock of the Rothersthorpe flight to Northampton. Other locks around the country can also be tight.

 

Depth can also be interesting, as older boats can be deeper drafted than many modern boats, which means you have to learn to steer them properly, in the channel; it was almost like starting from scratch. You often also don't have a weed hatch, so have to clear any obstructions on the blade with a cabin shaft, or get damp if it's serious.

 

But, on the less side, you're buying a piece of history, and you can get into the research side if you're interested. Finding a photograph of your boat working is great; finding a gauging record, that says where your boat was on a particular day, and who was aboard, is good too.

 

There is an element of madness involved- but also a lot of fun.

[barmyfluid]

Depth can also be interesting, as older boats can be deeper drafted than many modern boats, which means you have to learn to steer them properly, in the channel; it was almost like starting from scratch. You often also don't have a weed hatch, so have to clear any obstructions on the blade with a cabin shaft, or get damp if it's serious.

 

 

Yes - my plan would be to bring a boat up to the Macc canal and pretty much stay there, and at 24" reported draught on a reportedly shallow stretch....hmmm. Taking my tape measure tomorrow!

[alan_fincher]

 

Yes - my plan would be to bring a boat up to the Macc canal and pretty much stay there, and at 24" reported draught on a reportedly shallow stretch....hmmm. Taking my tape measure tomorrow!

 

Well the details say that Baildon has a 26" draft.

 

I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

 

A Town class boat has hull side 4' 9" deep, so if you measure what is above water, then whatever is left after you deduct that amount from 4' 9" will not be far off the mark. I'm sure that will be considerably more than 2' 2". (A "proper" one is at least 2' 10", and whilst that counter is too deep, it is certainly nothing like 8" too deep.)

 

A Russell Newbery will need to swing quite a large propeller, and I doubt a suitable one could be accommodated if the draft were really as small as stated.

 

A great shame to buy a boat with a lovely lump like an RN, though, if you largely plan to put it on to one fairly short canal and never venture away from it.

[MoominPapa]

 

Yes - my plan would be to bring a boat up to the Macc canal and pretty much stay there, and at 24" reported draught on a reportedly shallow stretch....hmmm. Taking my tape measure tomorrow!

We took a 34" deep boat down the Macc last year. Most of the bridge-oles were slow, but it floated everywhere it needed to. Are you sure about the 24" number? That's quite shallow, even for a modern boat.

 

MP.

[RLWP]

Something else. If you buy a historic ex working boat, you become an ex working boat owner. This seems to give a lot of people the right to discuss your boat, its authenticity (or not), how it is kept, painted, modified, handled...

 

You are automatically in the spotlight

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

I'll be blunt then. The last reply from OP doers not come across to me as an natural owner for an "historic".

Certainly if the motives were solely that it might somehow hold its value better than a modern offering, I think they will get a nasty shock about overall costs.

Not mentioned so far are....

 

1) Insurers want a full hull survey every 6 years, or there abouts, (unless you are going to only insure 3rd party, which some may be reluctant to do if it is their home).

2) In my experience historic boats seem to attract premiums about double those of a non historic boat.

 

In any long term ownership, I would expect maintenance and repair to keep to a good standard to be significantly higher than for a modern boat.

 

I think overall all the extra costs would wipe out any lower depreciation on an old boat than a newish one.

[barmyfluid]

Yes, 24" was a typo, it's 26".

 

 

 

A great shame to buy a boat with a lovely lump like an RN, though, if you largely plan to put it on to one fairly short canal and never venture away from it.

 

I think anyone can take it to the extreme and say it's a great shame it's not immediately converted back to a butty and only ever used for pulling cargo as a TC pair, plus every shade of shame along the way from it's current state sat in a marina. Back in the real world, i'd be living and working in it 365 days a year, doubtlessly taking great pride in owning and maintaining it. Is that really such a bad thing to do with an historic boat or engine?

 

I appreciate the shared social responsibility of owning and caring for historic items and that they should be used, but not everything can be a floating, working museum owned and operated by cut-born and bred 'naturals', and a compromise can't be that bad. Well, doubtlessly it can.....

 

These are all good points, practical considerations and insights however, I'm most grateful.

[mark99]

Yes, 24" was a typo, it's 26".

 

 

 

I think anyone can take it to the extreme and say it's a great shame it's not immediately converted back to a butty and only ever used for pulling cargo as a TC pair, plus every shade of shame along the way from it's current state sat in a marina. Back in the real world, i'd be living and working in it 365 days a year, doubtlessly taking great pride in owning and maintaining it. Is that really such a bad thing to do with an historic boat or engine?

 

I appreciate the shared social responsibility of owning and caring for historic items and that they should be used, but not everything can be a floating, working museum owned and operated by cut-born and bred 'naturals', and a compromise can't be that bad. Well, doubtlessly it can.....

 

These are all good points, practical considerations and insights however, I'm most grateful.

 

Good post.

 

Your part in its history is just as valid as the previous epochs.

Edited February 26, 2016 by mark99

[Laurence Hogg]

We had a race up the Weaver with "Baildon" freshly converted in 1979 during the IWA National rally when we owned (the now missing) "Neptune" our Ricky motor which was fully converted, it was fun and we won, our JP2 and big prop played their parts well. Afterward we breasted up with and had a few drinks, great days back then.

[alan_fincher]

 

Good post.

 

Your part in its history is just as valid as the previous epochs.

 

Not intended as any kind of suggestion about the OP.

 

However I have about a year ago bought an historic boat that has been in somebody else's custody for 7 years previous to that.

 

I am sure they were well intentioned, but I can honestly say I would so much have preferred to be able to buy the boat they decided to buy 7 years earlier.

 

A vast amount of our effort since has been to both try and reverse what they did in that 7 years, (all of it highly unsympathetic), and also to start doing what they ought to have been doing in those 7 years, but had not. This will continue for many years provided we have the health, money and time to do it.

 

The reason they had chosen this boat, when their requirement was clearly for a floating flat is totally unclear to me.

 

So every custodian is of course part of a boat's history, but it certainly does not mean that every custodian is actually good for the boat.

 

If "barmyfluid" has genuine reasons for wanting an historic, that's fine, but words like "I'm not the slightest bit of an 'enthusiast' as far as working boats go other than an overall appreciation of their history and looks" don't really give me a strong feel that they necessarily fully understand exactly what they are getting in to if they do. I certainly don't think it is a way of protecting your "investment", which maybe I have misread as being one of the oroiginal questions alluded to. If I have that wrong, then I apologise.

[RLWP]

Perhaps the 'carbuncle' would be a relevant example

 

Flamingo (let's not discuss what people think the boat name should be) has a space at the front covered with a vee shaped roof. Do this to our boat and no one would do more than tut a bit

 

Do it to a 'historic' boat and suddenly it is a topic of conversation, a crime against history, a CARBUNCLE!!!

 

Similarly Dover always causes a lot of comment and discussion which a clonecraft never will

 

Owning a historic immediately puts you in the public eye and open to criticism, which owning another boat won't

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

Owning a historic immediately puts you in the public eye and open to criticism, which owning another boat won't

 

Unless its a "Hudson" of course!

 

On the plus side:

 

"Owning a historic immediately puts you in the public eye and causes immense amounts of public interest any admiration, which owning another boat won't"

Edited February 26, 2016 by alan_fincher

[barmyfluid]

 

If "barmyfluid" has genuine reasons for wanting an historic, that's fine, but words like "I'm not the slightest bit of an 'enthusiast' as far as working boats go other than an overall appreciation of their history and looks" don't really give me a strong feel that they necessarily fully understand exactly what they are getting in to if they do.

 

By "I'm not the slightest bit of an enthusiast' I basically mean I'm not like you (an no offense meant by that). The whole tone of your reply seems to say that the only person who is 'good for the boat' and deserves to own it is someone who already has years of experience of owning historic boats and does nothing to it other than try and restore it to its original form or something 'sympathetic'. Maybe they'll introduce a vetting procedure to keep riffraff like me on the Liverpools we deserve....

 

So putting go faster stripes and halogens on it would be a no-no too then?

 

I was filling Bessie up last week and a young guy came over to talk about her and say how much he loved Series Landies. When I mentioned she was my only wheels he shook his head in amazement, smiled and said 'Mate, I *respect* that!' and walked off.

 

 

I think overall all the extra costs would wipe out any lower depreciation on an old boat than a newish one.

 

Noted - though I'd never take on a boat that hadn't had the major work done already, which was why Baildon sounded a possible, recent rebottoming/footing etc...not sure why that would have any less of a lifespan than a rebottomed modern boat?

 

 

 

The reason they had chosen this boat, when their requirement was clearly for a floating flat is totally unclear to me.

 

 

Maybe they wanted a floating historic flat. Anything wrong with that?

[koukouvagia]

 

Owning a historic immediately puts you in the public eye and open to criticism, which owning another boat won't

 

Richard

Richard is spot on. Owning an historic boat is just asking for criticism.

Over the years it has been pointed out that I have a ridiculous over-powered engine that would never have been put in a working narrow boat; the undercloth conversion is equally stupid because a boat riding so high in the water would mean that it was empty and would not have been clothed up. Experts have assumed that my boat was overpropped when I had the rather smoky semi diesel engine in it; the shading on the lettering is on the wrong side; my rope work is untraditional; the fore cabin on the butty is the wrong shape; I should have canvas, not vinyl cloths; the rivets are about to pop because they don’t stick out like washers on a replica boat; the colour of the FMC red is not right and I’ve been told that the back deck should have ash rather than teak.

I do not pretend to be an old boatman; I always describe my boats as ex-working boats; I don’t dress up in period clothes; my boating skills over the past thirty years will never come anywhere near those of a boater born and bred on the cut.

I enjoy my boats for what they are - old boats restored as sympathetically as possible and I don’t worry too much if some of the details are wrong.

I hope the OP, if he goes ahead with Baildon, will get a huge amount of enjoyment out of it and has a thick enough skin to ignore its detractors.

Others have pointed out the expense of owning historic boats. Most of the expense is caused by having to have the hull and bottom repaired. It is unlikely that you'll ever re-coup that. But if you’re buying a boat that’s already had all the structural work done and a good engine fitted, then I don’t see that an historic boat should lose value anymore rapidly than a more modern one.

[Derek R.]

Anyone with any boat is an "enthusiast" for their boat. BAILDON is what it is, and if it meets the requirements of the prospective buyer/owner - brilliant. Nice engine, nice fore end, and the back end will do nicely too.

 

Most so called "experts" never worked boats or come from ex-working boat families, but have set up a degree of 'knowledge' based upon hearsay and photographs and will nit-pick anything. Some of it is valid in some circumstances, most often it is not - though a willingness to learn boating techniques for efficiency and safety are always welcomed.

 

I don't know what "carbuncle" refers to. Has Prince Charles been on here?

[John V]

I think I will just quote a previous post of mine

 

 

One of the problems when doing extensive rebuilding work on an old boat is what can be done to make the end result useable and comfortable and still retain some of the look.

Another one is cost. Purists will insist that xyz was always riveted so a replacement must be etc. etc. If they want to see old boats looking like that then they should buy the damn thing and spend their money on it.

 

When I replaced the bow of Sabina a purist would have said it should be riveted, well I wasn't, it was welded up in a manner that retained the look of a Humber barge but the eyes are not castings and the rubbing bands are channel irons rather than D bar.....but if I had gone original I would have gone bankrupt

 

If I restored Sabina H to her original 1920's state she would be a 100 ton dumb barge with no accommodation whatsoever

If I restored Sabina H to her original 1930's state she would be a 70 ton motor barge with no living accommodation

At almost every decade she has been modified or repaired and used in different trades in different areas.

 

She now has a large fixed wheelhouse and looks more like a small coaster than a keel, but she is still here and with care could last another 90 years.

If any purist thinks it should be different, wait until I have shuffled off my perch and buy her and change her back.

Be grateful she wasn't cut up for scrap 20 years ago