Historic long term value

[kris88]

 

When I replaced the bow of Sabina a purist would have said it should be riveted, well I wasn't, it was welded up in a manner that retained the look of a Humber barge but the eyes are not castings and the rubbing bands are channel irons rather than D bar.....but if I had gone original I would have gone bankrupt

 

This whole post is spot on thanks john, but the paragraph I've copied above, is particularly relevant to me at the moment. The next major job I need to undertake on my boat, is work on the bow. I'm not in a position of being able to rivet the job so I'll have to do a sympathetic repair. I still have to earn all the money to undertake the work yet, so still in the future.

 

Regards kris

[David Schweizer]

 

Richard is spot on. Owning an historic boat is just asking for criticism.

Over the years it has been pointed out that I have a ridiculous over-powered engine that would never have been put in a working narrow boat; the undercloth conversion is equally stupid because a boat riding so high in the water would mean that it was empty and would not have been clothed up. Experts have assumed that my boat was overpropped when I had the rather smoky semi diesel engine in it; the shading on the lettering is on the wrong side; my rope work is untraditional; the fore cabin on the butty is the wrong shape; I should have canvas, not vinyl cloths; the rivets are about to pop because they don’t stick out like washers on a replica boat; the colour of the FMC red is not right and I’ve been told that the back deck should have ash rather than teak.

I do not pretend to be an old boatman; I always describe my boats as ex-working boats; I don’t dress up in period clothes; my boating skills over the past thirty years will never come anywhere near those of a boater born and bred on the cut.

I enjoy my boats for what they are - old boats restored as sympathetically as possible and I don’t worry too much if some of the details are wrong.

I hope the OP, if he goes ahead with Baildon, will get a huge amount of enjoyment out of it and has a thick enough skin to ignore its detractors.

Others have pointed out the expense of owning historic boats. Most of the expense is caused by having to have the hull and bottom repaired. It is unlikely that you'll ever re-coup that. But if you’re buying a boat that’s already had all the structural work done and a good engine fitted, then I don’t see that an historic boat should lose value anymore rapidly than a more modern one.

 

 

As one of the small number of people on this forum who actually remembers working boats when they were working, and having been on Owl several times, I would not have noticed any of the things you mentioned as being incorrect, OK, it was unusual for an empty boat to be sheeted over, but not unique, but Owl is a lovely boat and. in my view, she reflects how working boats looked when they were working,

Of course if the "carbuncle" had cloths over it, it would probably be more acceptable to the purists than the large "box" behind it!

 

There are probably more unconverted (or deconverted) GUCCCo boats now than there are still converted ones, (health warning: I haven't actually checked that claim!), so if either trouble people enough, then there are plenty of examples to look at that should make them less unhappy!

 

perhaps, if it was about 15 inches lower, and the deck boatd did not have windows in it!

[David Schweizer]

 

"A gentleman is somebody who can play the banjo, but does not."

 

And yes, you can substitute the word accordion, melodeon, bagpipes, etc for the word banjo in all such jokes of this genre.

 

"What is the difference between a melodeon and an onion? - You don't cry if you cut up a melodeon"

 

(and so on.....)

 

Now you have really upset me.

[alan_fincher]

Of course if the "carbuncle" had cloths over it, it would probably be more acceptable to the purists than the large "box" behind it!

 

perhaps, if it was about 15 inches lower, and the deck boatd did not have windows in it!

For someone who often prides themselves on accuracy, I'm surprised you have little idea how much 15 inches is David!

 

I would acknowledge that the "carbuncle" is a little higher than the equivalent deck board on a typical GU "Town" class motor, but actually not hugely more than on many.

 

If you think "Flamingo's" should be 15 inches lower, how much would you propose that "Stanton's" and "Chertsey's" are cut down to give what you think is the "correct" height?

 

(Actually I have never noticed "Stanton's as unusual previously, but I doubt it stands any less high above the front deck than the "carbuncle" does it?)

 

[barmyfluid]

To put things in perspective, you have an old and loved Landy which is your daily driver and you're rightly proud of this. I have a 2a Lightweight, so probably have an idea what you're on about. I suspect neither of us are "rivet counters" in Landy speak, but let me ask you a question. If you were looking for another series Landy, would the word "unmolested" feature in your buying spec? There are shed loads of old series out there that have been hacked about with the gas axe, and that's why they're so cheap. A faded series with original engine and good bulkhead will always carry a premium over one with checker plate and a butchered rear cross member.

 

I'm afraid I think that Baildon is definitely not "unmolested".

 

True, true, though the basic utility of any road going Landy is going to the same regardless of modification, and there are always be those that actually desire a chequerplate monster (that's nailed my colours to the mast!) whereas an unconverted butty is, for the majority of potential buyers, of no real use whatsoever. There are many more people desiring a boat with accommodation and liveability than those wanting one (and being in the financial position to own) for occasional historical display, love, or commercial carrying . I have to ask, while its obvious an un-messed with boat does carry an 'enthusiast' premium, does this actually translate to any monetary premium, or one of easy saleability?

 

The other thing is, I can pull up a list of historical boats, and it's really not that long - there are not that many extant, and no matter how chopped, it's still something of considerable note to have a boat on that list, and that is always going to have a certain value (which is what my OP was about really, the non-depreciation of historical value). How many Series vehicles are still out there? many, many thousands, much more choice and chance of a 'real' one, with new parts still made.

 

BTW, I said Uke banjo - you need to be thinking George Formby, not the kid from Deliverance (BTW, 'enthusiast' rant: duelling banjos is a bluegrass (ie 'modern') style song that the kid wouldn't be seen dead playing, he'd be playing old time clawhammer, rarrrgh, the rivets, the rivets!!!!!)

[RLWP]

Turned out nice again

[Tuscan]

Buy what you like , historic or otherwise. If you are in it for the money become a broker would be my advice.. One persons cottage fit out is another's tasteful conversion.

[David Mack]

 

For someone who often prides themselves on accuracy, I'm surprised you have little idea how much 15 inches is David!

 

I would acknowledge that the "carbuncle" is a little higher than the equivalent deck board on a typical GU "Town" class motor, but actually not hugely more than on many.

 

If you think "Flamingo's" should be 15 inches lower, how much would you propose that "Stanton's" and "Chertsey's" are cut down to give what you think is the "correct" height?

 

(Actually I have never noticed "Stanton's as unusual previously, but I doubt it stands any less high above the front deck than the "carbuncle" does it?)

 

 

Flamingo's deck board looks about right to me.

 

The Lawrence Hogg drawings of the Large Northwich (which I understand was traced from a Yarwoods drawing) shows the top of the top plank to be 7 ft 10 ins above the bottom plate, so it would be easy to check.

 

I believe that in BW carrying days, several of the GU boats were allocated to the northwestern fleet. But as many bridges on the north western routes were lower than on the GU, the top planks were set lower so that unloaded boats did not need the cratch dismantling. An example of the resulting lower height deckboard can be seen on Alton.

 

[barmyfluid]

If you are in it for the money become a broker would be my advice..

 

Really not a matter of 'making' anything, I was just asking about about perceptions of un-depreceable value over and above a modern boat. Maybe I'm trying to get as much psychological leverage in place to protect against me buying a house/flat again, and I'm just trying to be canny with what little money I've got. Nothing wrong with that is there?

[FadeToScarlet]

The other thing is, I can pull up a list of historical boats, and it's really not that long - there are not that many extant, and no matter how chopped, it's still something of considerable note to have a boat on that list, and that is always going to have a certain value (which is what my OP was about really, the non-depreciation of historical value). How many Series vehicles are still out there? many, many thousands, much more choice and chance of a 'real' one, with new parts still made.

 

The list of surviving historic narrowboats isn't that short. The HNBC have details of 872 surviving boats, with more that cannot be 100% identified.

[barmyfluid]

The list of surviving historic narrowboats isn't that short. The HNBC have details of 872 surviving boats, with more that cannot be 100% identified.

 

It's short enough that there is actually a list - it was the comparison to 'historic' Landies, of which there are fahsands and fahsands.

[David Schweizer]

 

For someone who often prides themselves on accuracy, I'm surprised you have little idea how much 15 inches is David!

 

I would acknowledge that the "carbuncle" is a little higher than the equivalent deck board on a typical GU "Town" class motor, but actually not hugely more than on many.

 

If you think "Flamingo's" should be 15 inches lower, how much would you propose that "Stanton's" and "Chertsey's" are cut down to give what you think is the "correct" height?

 

(Actually I have never noticed "Stanton's as unusual previously, but I doubt it stands any less high above the front deck than the "carbuncle" does it?)

 

 

 

OK., I admit that 15" was an exaggeration, but my recollection is that most Town boats had lower deck boards. much more like that illustrated on Alton. But the comment about the windows remains.

Edited February 28, 2016 by David Schweizer

[Tuscan]

Really not a matter of 'making' anything, I was just asking about about perceptions of un-depreceable value over and above a modern boat. Maybe I'm trying to get as much psychological leverage in place to protect against me buying a house/flat again, and I'm just trying to be canny with what little money I've got. Nothing wrong with that is there?

Nothing at all. My experience of historic boats regardless of value is the expense of owning and maintaining one is more than the equivalent valued more modern boat. The 10% license discount is a welcome bonus. Good luck in your search

[alan_fincher]

The 10% license discount is a welcome bonus.

 

I know this is one of the greatest areas of inconsistency of all, but doubtful I think you would get this on a boat like Baildon.

 

(But please let me know if you can, and I might even try for it on Flamingo!)

[FadeToScarlet]

 

I know this is one of the greatest areas of inconsistency of all, but doubtful I think you would get this on a boat like Baildon.

 

(But please let me know if you can, and I might even try for it on Flamingo!)

The Historic licence discount is changing- because of inconsistencies like this. It's becoming linked to the National Historic Ships register.

[Tuscan]

I know this is one of the greatest areas of inconsistency of all, but doubtful I think you would get this on a boat like Baildon.

 

(But please let me know if you can, and I might even try for it on Flamingo!)

I was successful in registering Aber with the Historic Ships register. I would suggest you provide some history and try.

[alan_fincher]

The Historic licence discount is changing- because of inconsistencies like this. It's becoming linked to the National Historic Ships register.

 

But is anything actually happening on that front?

 

I have tried asking previously, but didn't get anywhere.

 

There are lots of boats on the register that clearly don't come close to meeting the current requirements, so if we ever get there CRT will lose some revenue!

[Tuscan]

But is anything actually happening on that front?

 

I have tried asking previously, but didn't get anywhere.

There are lots of boats on the register that clearly don't come close to meeting the current requirements, so if we ever get there CRT will lose some revenue!

I suspect the whole concept of licensing and the way charges are calculated (of which this is just a minor part) is next on CRTs agenda and I suspect this may have something to do with why it's not been rationalised. Just a guess.

[alan_fincher]

I was successful in registering Aber with the Historic Ships register. I would suggest you provide some history and try.

 

Flamingo is already on the register, (I didn't put it there - it does need correcting and updating).

 

However I don't believe CRT yet allow that as qualifying for the discount. I think it is just a proposal, but it doesn't seem to have progressed very fast.

 

Currently I believe these are still the criteria they (theoretically!) judge by....

 

 

1. Age of boat

 

The basic structure of the boat should have been built before 1 January 1948 (when most inland waterways were nationalised). In some circumstances boats built after this date can be considered for the discount.

 

There are many publications which illustrate or describe most of the older boats still existent. Applicants should provide documentary or photographic evidence of the boat’s age and history. The materials and methods of construction are often indicative of the period of manufacture, e.g. virtually all riveted iron/steel construction occurred before 1948.

 

2. Relevance to the heritage of the UK inland waterways

 

Boats should have been used primarily on UK inland navigation or UK coastal and estuarial waters. Boats built for the waterways of other countries are not usually eligible.

 

3. Structural condition

 

There are old boats and there are historic old boats. A boat built before 1948 is likely to be of historic value if its structure is either original, or an accurate reproduction in the same material as the original, using the same methods as the original. It should not have had substantial modifications to:

• the hull

• the cabin – exterior or interior

• the engine

• any functional original equipment

 

Modifications made early in the life of the boat are less significant than changes made in recent years.

 

If the boat has been modified or converted, it should continue to ‘look the part’. For example, a traditional 1930’s narrowboat with a 3m cabin extension, an under-canvas extension and perhaps an engine of 1950’s vintage, may be acceptable. A similar boat with a full length steel cabin would not.

 

3. Appearance and provenance

 

The appearance should reflect the history of the boat. The paintwork should be traditional and the boat should be presented in a good state of repair. One or more recent photos should be included with this application.

 

Availability of well documented historical information about the boat will contribute to a positive decision.

Flamingo should of course fail the bit I have highlighted in red, though of course that does not disqualify a boat from the National Historic Ships register.

 

However I am aware of other boats with less well documented histories that have a full length cabin, and do get the discount.

 

It is currently a mess!

[WotEver]

Turned out nice again

I met Alan Randall a few times in the past as he stepped out of his Roller "UKE 1". Worked with him too.

 

Tony

[koukouvagia]

By the way, Hudson owners could always apply to have their boat included on the UK Replica List .

Edited February 28, 2016 by koukouvagia

[Derek R.]

Never had a problem getting YARMOUTH with a discount. Ten feet shorter than original; powered; full length steel cabin. But one third of the vessel was 1914, which back then was the determining factor. Maybe things have changed.

 

For Blue Grass lovers:

Edited February 29, 2016 by Derek R.

[colinwilks]

........ and there are always be those that actually desire a chequerplate monster (that's nailed my colours to the mast!).......

If you think checker plate adds something desirable to a Land Rover I can see why you are attracted to Baildon (I think that nails my colours to the mast too!)

 

Sorry, I don't want to pee on your fireworks, but I don't see why your cost of ownership of Baildon over time should be any less than if you bought a fifteen or twenty year old leisure boat.

 

I see the asking price has dropped by £5k and wonder how long it's been on the market. They're not exactly fighting the potential buyers off with sticks!

 

The boat market has been in the doldrums for a while now. Another recent post on here referred to there being very few boats for sale at the brokerage ar Mercia marina, so perhaps you would be buying just before an upturn in the market. Not sure I'd bank on it though.

[pipistrelle]

I was successful in registering Aber with the Historic Ships register. I would suggest you provide some history and try.

 

I got the discount with Clypeus even before removing the ugly flues and with the distinctly non-traditional paint job (it's on the Historic Ships register, though). Got †o be worth a try for Flamingo.

[barmyfluid]

If you think checker plate adds something desirable to a Land Rover I can see why you are attracted to Baildon (I think that nails my colours to the mast too!)

 

 

No I don't, that's why I said 'monster', maybe 'monstrosity' would have been clearer to you. It's a different thing though, Baildon doesn't exactly have CB antennas, GRP flybridge and a rack of halogen lights - as far as 99.99% of the world goes, she's a 'really old narrowboat' with all the dent's and features you'd expect, and if they're still interested, there's the history of her origins.

 

Yep, I tend to agree with the boat market being quiet, unfortunately there were quite a few boats that suited me up not long back but I didn't have the house sold in time to go for them.