Historic long term value

[Tuscan]

Owning an old boat is a bit like owning an old Land Rover , some are scruffy and used , some are near concourse and just taken to shows either way they often spend more time in the 'garage' being either fixed or fettled. Owners can be arrogant with their expertise or really good company. Few though I suspect bought as an investment.

[mark99]

Buy the boat with what you think not what others might think.

 

If you like it, that's it really.

 

Extreme beard strokers will get in a pickle about the right sort of dent.

Edited February 27, 2016 by mark99

[alan_fincher]

 

By "I'm not the slightest bit of an enthusiast' I basically mean I'm not like you (an no offense meant by that). The whole tone of your reply seems to say that the only person who is 'good for the boat' and deserves to own it is someone who already has years of experience of owning historic boats and does nothing to it other than try and restore it to its original form or something 'sympathetic'.

 

Well that certainly was not what I was trying to say, so perhaps I'll just withdraw from the debate, as I'm obviously not very good at expressing myself!

 

If "years of experience of owning historic boats" was a requirement, then I would firmly fail the test. Until we bought "Sickle" about 5 years ago, all my recent experience was of a "modern" boat.

 

I'm certainly not saying you should not buy Baildon, (or anything similar) - I know nothing more about you than what you have said here. I was trying to understand your interests in going that route, (which I think I have clearly failed to!), and to point out the reasons why it is hardly likely to ever cost you less than choosing something more modern.

 

At the very least seek as many opinions as you can about boats that Malcolm Braine has had a hand in,

 

Good luck!

[mark99]

I think Alan, you made some very valid points. The counterposts were just a form of balance from the voice of the majority (who don't own or know too much about the historic side of things - but appreciate them on a less intense style).

[RLWP]

I don't know what "carbuncle" refers to. Has Prince Charles been on here?

 

I'm not too worried about the term, Alan is very aware of the description

 

Flamingo:

 

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

I'm not too worried about the term, Alan is very aware of the description

Of course if the "carbuncle" had cloths over it, it would probably be more acceptable to the purists than the large "box" behind it!

 

There are probably more unconverted (or deconverted) GUCCCo boats now than there are still converted ones, (health warning: I haven't actually checked that claim!), so if either trouble people enough, then there are plenty of examples to look at that should make them less unhappy!

[barmyfluid]

I am really grateful for your replies and advice Alan, I think it's what you said about the the couple and 'what they ought to have been doing' that gives the impression that you think there is only one way to own an historic, and that is to take it to what others would call extreme lengths to preserve and restore, but I respect your point of view. I am in fact an historical restorer and user of transport, musical instruments, valve communication radios and cameras, all of which I use on a daily basis, so I'm not that much out of the fold.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/boogiepix/21420725294/in/album-72157651197575265/

 

A recent picture of Victoria pit I took with a 1940's Graflex large format lens grafted onto a 1930's Ensign pocket folding camera that I'd welded a new back onto so I could use a 1920's qarter plate film holder to shoot paper negatives, a technique from 1841. A complete frankenstien of camera and techniques, but I'm happy - all the bits got used, I learned new historical techniques in the process and it gave something back to today. I'm cool with that.

 

I've a 1930's Slingerland banjo uke that still has the original vellum on it from the Chicago stockyards of the period and is utterly pristine and wonderful. Would I stick an electric pickup on it and paint over the birdseye maple? Of course not.

 

I consider myself a 'moderate' enthusiast

[RLWP]

I am in fact an historical restorer

 

AAARghhh!

 

Don't do it! You'll buy yourself a historic boat as a home, then find out more about it, get dissatisfied with some aspect which will niggle at you until suddenly you find yourself in a dry dock with most of your hull missing

 

Seriously, you sound like an ideal owner, go and have a look

 

Richard

[paddles up]

 

A vast amount of our effort since has been to both try and reverse what they did in that 7 years, (all of it highly unsympathetic), and also to start doing what they ought to have been doing in those 7 years, but had not. This will continue for many years provided we have the health, money and time to do it.

 

The reason they had chosen this boat, when their requirement was clearly for a floating flat is totally unclear to me.

 

So every custodian is of course part of a boat's history, but it certainly does not mean that every custodian is actually good for the boat.

 

Surely his input wasn't a complete waste of effort? Having spoken with the previous owner of 'Flamingo' last year he mentioned having spent a good deal of time and money on the engine in the last couple of years before deciding to sell so surely that's one area you don't have to worry about?

[alan_fincher]

Surely his input wasn't a complete waste of effort? Having spoken with the previous owner of 'Flamingo' last year he mentioned having spent a good deal of time and money on the engine in the last couple of years before deciding to sell so surely that's one area you don't have to worry about?

 

The problem with anonymity of forum user names, is that I have no idea who I am talking to here when I reply. Yes, I know anonymity has recently been discussed at length, but in this case I have no idea how much you actually know about the boat other than by talking to the former owner.

 

All I can say is "I wish!", and one of the challenges is how, where and when we can start to put the engine into far better order than it currently is.

 

Obviously what a former owner has done is their concern, and I had the choice whether to buy this particular boat or not, and went ahead despite both the obvious and less obvious downsides. He seemed a very genuine and friendly guy, but I have since been advised he was not prepared to spend money on elements of work on the engine that those doing the work considered needed doing. There is more than ample evidence this is true.

 

Personally I would always prioritise trying to make the top half of a boat watertight above trying to add ill thought out underfloor heating to the bathroom area, but clearly we all have different priorities!

[John Brightley]

I think it's worthwhile pointing out that Baildon has been in its current converted form now for longer than it was in its original form, and so to some extent its current form is historical and of interest in itself.

Also, I have always got the impression that it has been very well maintained by its current owners - surely an important factor when deciding to buy it.

In my eyes it's very good value for money, but one downside in buying it to live aboard might be that certain elements of the fit out (that one might live with if using just for holidays) might need upgrading.

[barmyfluid]

I spent a couple of hours looking at Baildon today, it's a lovely boat and actually very practical for my needs, a bit of upgrading as and when but nothing too immediate other than an inverter needed. It is however looking a bit uncared for, (though it's obvious how much care it's had over the years), and sounds like it's not been used much for quite some time - I know that's not a good thing. Very seriously thinking about putting an offer in though.

 

'Decent' historical hull and engine guys have been recommended to me by the marina for surveys - going OT but I was reading on here that only 1 in 12 historical boat buyers have a survey done, and there isn't much confidence in reports. Any advice regarding this?

 

If I had her out (sans survey) for blacking and had it shotblasted (would probably spring for 2-pack), wouldn't any decent shop have enough nous to know if some plating or other hull work was needed anyway?

 

I'd probably have the surveys for peace of mind/insurance/bargaining reasons, plus at this point I'd be a happier buyer myself if there was a report from a few years back, which feeds back into keeping its resale value or resaleability, at least to someone with my thinking, but any for and against points would be most welcomed at this point.

[alan_fincher]

Well if you wanted to insure it anything other than basic 3rd party cover, you would either need to have at least a full hull survey, or strike some deal to continue to use whatever is left of any time that the current owner has on a survey before an insurer would require another one. (E.g. if it was surveyed 2 years ago, and insurer requires a new one each 6 yeas, you may be able to do some deal over the remaining 4 years).

Do you know when it was last surveyed, and are they prepared for you to sight that survey? (If so make sure the surveyor is not also the person that has done the hull work, or there is a danger they are just passing their own work as sound, with no independent scrutiny!)

 

There are few surveyors that specialise in 80 year old working boat hulls, and the evidence is that even they miss things sometime. I would say it would be unwise to use one that doesn't have a track record in that field, (unless your sole objective is to obtain a piece of paper to allow you to insure it comprehensively).

 

If you post the names of the surveyor(s) recommended by the marina, I'm sure some people will be happy to message you to say if they think they are appropriate. They may not wish to put their thoughts in the public domain.

[barmyfluid]

There wasn't any last survey available or information regarding when that was, and no date on the last engine service. I'm going to be probing further regarding this. I wasn't given names of the surveyors, but I'll be asking.

[IanR]

Barmyfluid, we were in a similar position last year when we bought our boat. We wanted something with a history and within our budget (quite similar to yours it would seem) there was a few around ranging from the thoroughly historic unconverted to the 'chopped about butty' boats that some enthusiasts smirk about. After looking at most of them we ended up with the back end of a butty pointing the wrong way with a new motor back end etc... because it completely suited us in terms of what was there and we actually loved its story and hope to add to it. This boat hadn't seen too much use in the last few years and was very unloved. We had our offer accepted subject to survey. Steve Hands (Hands on Marine??) was our surveyor and he showed us through the whole job and certainly seemed to know what he was looking at and for. Needless to say the boat didn't fare too well and price renegotiations took place to cover the work required, including rebottoming and refooting. Insurers insisted on a survey and wouldn't insure fully comp til the work was done. We are pleased with the choices we made and accept our boat for what it is. If Baildon has 'spoken' to you then the decision is halfway made!!

 

Ian.

[alan_fincher]

There wasn't any last survey available or information regarding when that was, and no date on the last engine service. I'm going to be probing further regarding this. I wasn't given names of the surveyors, but I'll be asking.

 

I think in the case of an "historic" it is always entirely reasonable to ask to see a recent survey if it exists. I can't see why that should be reasonably refused, and I would be suspicious if it was.

 

Assuming it is comprehensively insured at the moment, I think few insurers will let the gap go more than 6 or maybe 7 years, so there should be one no older than that, (unless it only has third party cover).

 

Whilst how it was as much as 7 years ago is not a total guarantee of likely condition now, it is a hell of a lot better than buying a boat where much of it is 80 years old, without any statement as to how the 80 year old bits have fared. (Though it is of course perfectly possible to have 80 years old bits in excellent condition, and 20 year old repairs that are not!....)

[roland elsdon]

in the 80s broke with a pair, in 2000 bought a lovely converted butty adored it, in 2009 could have commissioned the best from the best, and discussed with two brothers one of whom builds the best replicas one of whom won't have a new boat ( you know who you are) didn't commission, bought another old money pit. Love it from afar for half the year, on it the other half. Once you have history in your blood you appreciate good replicas but...

[colinwilks]

To put things in perspective, you have an old and loved Landy which is your daily driver and you're rightly proud of this. I have a 2a Lightweight, so probably have an idea what you're on about. I suspect neither of us are "rivet counters" in Landy speak, but let me ask you a question. If you were looking for another series Landy, would the word "unmolested" feature in your buying spec? There are shed loads of old series out there that have been hacked about with the gas axe, and that's why they're so cheap. A faded series with original engine and good bulkhead will always carry a premium over one with checker plate and a butchered rear cross member.

 

I'm afraid I think that Baildon is definitely not "unmolested".

[Pluto]

I've a 1930's Slingerland banjo uke that still has the original vellum on it from the Chicago stockyards of the period and is utterly pristine and wonderful. Would I stick an electric pickup on it and paint over the birdseye maple? Of course not.

 

I consider myself a 'moderate' enthusiast

Can anyone playing a banjo be considered 'moderate'?

[kris88]

Can anyone playing a banjo be considered 'moderate'?

I have met a moderate banjo player once. There is definately madness involved in old boats, good job there are some mad people about. Or else there would be a lot less old boats still floating about.

As for the people who stand on the sidelines and criticise, get your own old boat and do it how you like. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

Regards kris

[RLWP]

I have met a moderate banjo player once.

 

Is that moderate, or moderate for a banjo player?

 

Richard

[kris88]

Oh definately moderate for a banjo player.

 

Regards kris

[alan_fincher]

Can anyone playing a banjo be considered 'moderate'?

 

"A gentleman is somebody who can play the banjo, but does not."

 

And yes, you can substitute the word accordion, melodeon, bagpipes, etc for the word banjo in all such jokes of this genre.

 

"What is the difference between a melodeon and an onion? - You don't cry if you cut up a melodeon"

 

(and so on.....)

[RLWP]

Oh definately moderate for a banjo player.

 

Regards kris

 

Sounds my kind of player

 

Richard

[kris88]

 

Sounds my kind of player

 

Richard

Yes he is very good, lots of blue grass. Changed my whole opinion of banjo's

 

Regards kris