surveyors

[ukrizla]

its a full survey on a 57ft trad costing £428 I think

[Sbg]

If I had commissioned a survey and it only took an hour I would be asking for a refund. That is nowhere near enough time to do a proper survey.

I thimk you would have trouble with that. You would be paying for a defined output i.e. the survey report as opposed to "time and materials". If the report is of suitable quality and has addressed all of the planned items and issues discussed beforehand then it is irrelevant to you whether it took him an hour, two or four.

[Delta9]

If the report is of suitable quality and has addressed all of the planned items and issues discussed beforehand then it is irrelevant to you whether it took him an hour, two or four.

It wouldn't be possible to do in an hour unless it was a tiny and basic boat.

[cuthound]

Just looked at a boat, like it 60k plus, boat owner and Mrs seem genuine and nice, I believe them, he services his boat and knows what he is talking about, only 7 yrs old, should I get a survey? yes is obvious answer, but if I believe them to be true, which I do, why throw a k away, has anyone done the deal and not surveyed ? I know why I should, but can anyone tell me to go with my gut feelings ?

You are in a similar position to me, two years ago. I had just required from a career in critical power & cooling project management, so pretty technically minded and practical.

 

Hummed and haa'd and finally decided to have a survey done. (£450 + £300 for the dry dock hire).

 

Although the survey didn't reveal any issues (quite the opposite in fact), it showed the boat had a 2 pack epoxy under normal blacking, a better quality insulation than stated. I also learned a great deal about the boat and its systems by attending the survey and got piece of mind.

 

To risk buying a lemon costing £60k tovsave around a £1k seems madness to me.

[Paul C]

Just looked at a boat, like it 60k plus, boat owner and Mrs seem genuine and nice, I believe them, he services his boat and knows what he is talking about, only 7 yrs old, should I get a survey? yes is obvious answer, but if I believe them to be true, which I do, why throw a k away, has anyone done the deal and not surveyed ? I know why I should, but can anyone tell me to go with my gut feelings ?

 

If you took a good look around the boat and found £2000 of work needed, then went to the seller asking for a £2000 discount, they would probably say "price reflects condition mate, its £60k or FRO"

 

If you arranged a surveyor to look at the boat, then he found some items which added up to £2000, then you went to the seller, you are MUCH more likely to get £2000 off.

 

I've used £2000 as a ballpark figure - so long as this figure is above the cost of the survey + slip etc, then you're in profit.

 

Also....bear in mind......he might look at the boat and say there's nothing much wrong with it but its worth £50k not £60k; or he might find something serious (yes, even expensive boats can have problems). It might be he finds something the broker and the seller were unaware of. After all, when was it last removed from the water?

 

At the end of the day its up to you though.

[Emerald Fox]

As this subject has been started, can anyone recommend hull surveyors in the Upper Peak Forest area?

Blacking this Summer there and I thought that whilst the boat is in the air someone could come and whack it a bit with hammers whilst we're stood there supervising/standing there in awe/panicking about horrible things being found.

Our hull survey was done 2 years ago and I think everything is OK, here are some extracts from our report - does it look reasonable? This may give others an idea as to what gets looked at:

 

Areas not surveyed due to poor access: Hull external at area obscured by timber bearers, hull internal where obscured by flooring and panelling.

 

Hull external: The hull is fabricated to a simple and satisfactory standard. The lower sides are folded to give double chines and strength. Notable denting is present at the bow, the bottom plate and stbd chines are worn.

Flat bottom - originally 6mm plate. Hammer testing revealed some delamination inside the cabin bilge. Ultrasonic measurements show the bottom thickness at 6.0mm centre and forward reducing to 5.0mm at the aft cabin bilge.

The outboard edges have a little wear to 5.6mm, wear is present at the aft chines to 5.3mm port and 4.6mm stbd.

Pitting is present at 1.2mm deep reducing to 0.5mm at the worn chines.

 

Sides - Originally 5mm plate, ultrasonic measurements show the sides at 5.0mm reducing to 4.7mm at the lower footings.

The prominent upper chines have worn; in particular on the stbd side, I suspect the craft has been rubbing on its mooring.

Ultrasonic measurements show the port frd and aft upper chines at 4.8/4.4mm. The stbd upper chines have further wear to 4.3mm.

Pitting is minimal on the side plating although pits are present at the chine folds at 0.4mm port and 0.8mm/1.2mm stbd.

 

Counter floor - the floor measures 6.0mm reducing to 5.8mm at the corroded areas frd and under the batteries with no pitting.

 

General - four serviceable magnesium anodes are fitted by welding. The hull is being reblacked at this docking.

 

Hull penetrations / Freeboard - all hull penetrations are at a satisfactory height above the waterline. I recommend the loose galley waste pipe is refitted with a skin fitting (I think he meant the shower waste pipe, and we have had this done).

 

Hull internal - the engine compartment has prevuíously been painted however the paint is beginning to lift, further maintenance will be required soon. I recomment improved access to the cabin bilge so the bilge can be maintained in a dry and ventilated condition.

 

Rudder - the simply constructed rudder is in a serviceable condition.

 

Weedhatch - the weedhatch is in a sound condition adequately jointed and secured.

 

Propellor/Stertube/Shaft - some notable sterntube/shaft wear is present however the unit will be serviceable with regular gland maintenance (I've no idea what this means, we've had our 'Aquadrive' out and reconditioned and stern gland repacked with 3 or 4 of those black rings).

 

Gas locker - the gas locker has severe corrosion present although was hammer tested satisfactorily. I recommend derusting and painting. (derusted with scraper and I banged a full gas bottle heavily down on the floor to see if it would go through (well, either it does or it doesn't!!) and the floor seemed undented, shaken but not stirred. Since then floor painted with thick layer of Hammerite red oxide, Hammerite dark green paint, Hammerite light green paint).

 

Conclusion - in addition to taking ultrasonic measurements, the hull was hammer tested satisfactorily. I confirm the hull is in a sound condition suitable for canal and river cruising. I recommend the insurance period is limited to four years as bottom plate and chine fold repairs may be required after this time.

 

(No photos of gas locker I'm afraid, but engine room before & after shots included)

Edited February 9, 2016 by Emerald Fox

[LEO]

You are in a similar position to me, two years ago. I had just required from a career in critical power & cooling project management, so pretty technically minded and practical.

 

Hummed and haa'd and finally decided to have a survey done. (£450 + £300 for the dry dock hire).

 

Although the survey didn't reveal any issues (quite the opposite in fact), it showed the boat had a 2 pack epoxy under normal blacking, a better quality insulation than stated. I also learned a great deal about the boat and its systems by attending the survey and got piece of mind.

 

To risk buying a lemon costing £60k tovsave around a £1k seems madness to me.

 

Hi,

 

I allow for replacement of various 'things' when I have bought boats - replacement of batteries, engine service and docking and blacking plus renewal of anodes and fenders - so the docking fee mentioned is built into that.

 

Money off through faults - the first boat was purchased in '88 for £9500, vendor paid for slipping to allow me to inspect it. It was a good boat but had a 'dodgy' gearbox, new 'box and parts cost me £800 - we used the boat for 16 years and sold if for £15000, the surveyor acting for the purchaser found no faults with the steelwork - the boat is still bringing pleasure to owners.

 

The second boat took 3 years finding - it was the exact spec. I wanted (tug style, 48ft, Tony Francis, 2LW), 3 people were after it, the first let the vendor down so I stepped in and slapped the 'boodle' down, the first time I saw it out of the water was when it was loaded on a trailer for the journey south.

 

Within weeks it was slipped for blacking, a surveyor was working on a boat nearby and had a look at mine - he was 'bowled' over by the steelwork and general appearance of the boat but advised fitting anodes down the side of the boat - this was done.

 

A couple of weeks after the purchase the vendor sent me a cheque for £100 for a new water pump as he felt the one fitted needed replacing.

 

The boat has proved a 'winner', but has had a lot of care and attention lavished on it.

 

So a tale to offset all the grim ones...........

 

L

[Leisure boater]

Just looked at a boat, like it 60k plus, boat owner and Mrs seem genuine and nice, I believe them, he services his boat and knows what he is talking about, only 7 yrs old, should I get a survey? yes is obvious answer, but if I believe them to be true, which I do, why throw a k away, has anyone done the deal and not surveyed ? I know why I should, but can anyone tell me to go with my gut feelings ?

I've allways found a surveyer will nock more than his fee of the cost of a boat. I'm an engineer and have been mucking around with boats for more than 50 years and allways get them surveyed and I'm allways there so he can find the things I've missed and I might find some he may miss.

[blackrose]

 

Hi,

 

I have purchased 2 boats, both about 10 years old and never bothered with a survey, The last one cost £47000.

 

I am very practical (Fellow of the Institute of Advanced Mendologists), both boats have been excellent, the first was home built from scratch and a 'gem'. The second was built by a quality low volume builder and is excellent.

 

I find I can spot a 'lemon' pretty quickly, whether it be a house ( I inspected these all my working life) or boats (I have been boating since '75).

 

Not sure if I would recommend this course of action to all, but it works for me,

 

L.

 

So how would you spot a lemon with deep pitting below the waterline which looked fine above the waterline? Unless you got the boat out of the water and were able to inspect it yourself?

Just looked at a boat, like it 60k plus, boat owner and Mrs seem genuine and nice, I believe them, he services his boat and knows what he is talking about, only 7 yrs old, should I get a survey? yes is obvious answer, but if I believe them to be true, which I do, why throw a k away, has anyone done the deal and not surveyed ? I know why I should, but can anyone tell me to go with my gut feelings ?

 

The owner and his Mrs may well be genuine and nice, but what's that got to do with the state of the hull? The owner and his Mrs might not know that the steel thickness is down to 3mm in places.

 

It's a bit like having unprotected sex with someone just because they seem like a genuine person. They may genuinely not know that they are carrying STDs!

Edited February 9, 2016 by blackrose

[Timx]

They told me it was fine when last blacked last year and anodes were fine,never sat in a marina or plugged in, as I believe them, cant see the point.Although I realise its still a gamble, anyway decision made ,ha scary innit.

[Loafer]

When I bought ours 6 years ago, it was in an excellent state and 10 years old, (a 'Hudson', with 15mm bottom). When I raised the subject of a survey, the guy and his wife (whom I trusted) roared with laughter and said 'well if you want to waste nearly a grand, then be my guest. You'll be wasting your money and the surveyor's time'.

 

I didn't have a survey and so far, nothing has been untoward.

 

PS It helped that the guy was ordering another new Hudson, a bigger one with 'A' frame design and with a canvassed steel cabin like an old working boat. She's actually called 'Hudson', you may have seen her around.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Loafer

[LEO]

 

So how would you spot a lemon with deep pitting below the waterline which looked fine above the waterline? Unless you got the boat out of the water and were able to inspect it yourself?

 

The owner and his Mrs may well be genuine and nice, but what's that got to do with the state of the hull? The owner and his Mrs might not know that the steel thickness is down to 3mm in places.

 

It's a bit like having unprotected sex with someone just because they seem like a genuine person. They may genuinely not know that they are carrying STDs!

 

Surveyors often come across areas which cannot be checked and usually say 'area so and so could not be seen due to ....' this is an interesting 'get out' clause - much better to say that and then qualify it by saying 'there should be no problems due to 'XYZ'' or 'there will be problems due to 'ABC'' -if a surveyor discovers a problem they must 'follow the trail' to reach a reasonable conclusion.

 

So with areas which may have problems such as pitting, really one has to form a judgement about the vendor and his statements as to anodes and blacking, checking this with documentary confirmation if possible.

 

It's easy to see whether a house or boat or has been well maintained just by looking at it as you walk towards it and if you get bad 'vibes' walk away, it's better to do this early on in the inspection and save the client money.

 

Deep pitting on a 7 year old boat? possible, yes, especially if you have an electrical fault or it has been plugged in or surrounded by plugged in boats - these are questions you normally ask and form a judgement.

 

I have come across various problems others have had with marine surveyors - one was an area of overplating needed, cost about £5000, client refused a fee refund from surveyor as he had given him so much advice?????? - fee refund was an easy get out for the surveyor. A surveyor also missed work on another boat which cost about £500 to correct - he paid up to settle matters quickly.

 

I have owned 3 houses, 2 have been sold but I supply a list of faults the house has and point out it has been priced accordingly - in all cases the deals have gone through quickly.

 

An American friend purchased a boat some years ago - a 20 year old Hancock & Lane - I suggested a survey but he laughed and said 'no - if it gets a hole in it I'll get a patch welded on' - he sold it some years ago - no patches had been welded!.

 

Life is a gamble........STD's are another matter - I've never had unprotected sex and always made sure they where 'in date'........but perhaps us 'oldies' are more careful over multiple partners and sleeping around.

Edited February 9, 2016 by LEO

[blackrose]

 

Surveyors often come across areas which cannot be checked and usually say 'area so and so could not be seen due to ....' this is an interesting 'get out' clause - much better to say that and then qualify it by saying 'there should be no problems due to 'XYZ'' or 'there will be problems due to 'ABC'' -if a surveyor discovers a problem they must 'follow the trail' to reach a reasonable conclusion.

 

So with areas which may have problems such as pitting, really one has to form a judgement about the vendor and his statements as to anodes and blacking, checking this with documentary confirmation if possible.

 

It's easy to see whether a house or boat or has been well maintained just by looking at it as you walk towards it and if you get bad 'vibes' walk away, it's better to do this early on in the inspection and save the client money.

 

Deep pitting on a 7 year old boat? possible, yes, especially if you have an electrical fault or it has been plugged in or surrounded by plugged in boats - these are questions you normally ask and form a judgement.

 

I have come across various problems others have had with marine surveyors - one was an area of overplating needed, cost about £5000, client refused a fee refund from surveyor as he had given him so much advice?????? - fee refund was an easy get out for the surveyor. A surveyor also missed work on another boat which cost about £500 to correct - he paid up to settle matters quickly.

 

I have owned 3 houses, 2 have been sold but I supply a list of faults the house has and point out it has been priced accordingly - in all cases the deals have gone through quickly.

 

An American friend purchased a boat some years ago - a 20 year old Hancock & Lane - I suggested a survey but he laughed and said 'no - if it gets a hole in it I'll get a patch welded on' - he sold it some years ago - no patches had been welded!.

 

Life is a gamble........STD's are another matter - I've never had unprotected sex and always made sure they where 'in date'........but perhaps us 'oldies' are more careful over multiple partners and sleeping around.

 

Yes, surveyors do make mistakes, but the only areas of the hull that they won't be able to check are the areas they don't have access to such as the area the boat is resting on and the inside of the hull under the floorboards and ballast. Despite that they may still overlook problems that they didn't spot. However, they will have a much better chance of finding any problems than your method of simply making a judgement on all the underwater parts of a hull that you can't see based on speculation about how the boat has been looked after. I've known people with a fair amount of experience who've bought boats without a survey just by asking questions and later regretted it. If you'd bought 10 boats and never had a problem then I'd concede that you probably know what you're doing, but I think you've probably been fortunate in your two boat purchases rather than skillful. Likewise, since your American friend never had a survey he wouldn't have known how thick or thin the hull was. Anyone who waits for a hole in their hull really is asking for trouble!

 

Life is a gamble to a certain extent depending on how you live it, but I would suggest that the OP who doesn't have much experience with boats, would be better off getting a proper survey in order to stack the odds further in their favour.

Edited February 9, 2016 by blackrose

[blackrose]

They told me it was fine when last blacked last year and anodes were fine,never sat in a marina or plugged in, as I believe them, cant see the point.Although I realise its still a gamble, anyway decision made ,ha scary innit.

 

Well, I'm glad it's your £60k that you're gambling and not mine...

 

Whether it's sat in a marina or plugged in is neither here nor there if the mains earth was properly isolated. The condition of the anodes is another red herring. If they're not corroding that could actually indicate a problem. It's the condition of the hull that's important, everything else is largely irrelevant.

Edited February 9, 2016 by blackrose

[Witchword]

Would you automatically go for a full survey if buying a 2nd hand boat?

 

If the current owners had a survey from the last two years or so would it be worth using that instead of getting another one?

[bottle]

They told me it was fine when last blacked last year and anodes were fine,never sat in a marina or plugged in, as I believe them, cant see the point.Although I realise its still a gamble, anyway decision made ,ha scary innit.

 

The earth is flat...do you believe me. By the way I have government security clearance and are of good character

 

I hope it all goes well.

 

Would you automatically go for a full survey if buying a 2nd hand boat?

 

If the current owners had a survey from the last two years or so would it be worth using that instead of getting another one?

 

Yes

 

No

 

The survey is for that moment of inspection, not next week or two years time.

[WotEver]

The survey is for that moment of inspection, not next week or two years time.

Just like a car MOT.

 

Tony

[Witchword]

Fab, good to know, thank you

[Emerald Fox]

As they say, SEEING is BELIEVING. When we bought our boat 2 years ago the previous owner, who is a thoroughly decent bloke, had the boat out for blacking and a hull survey at the same time, as it was time for blacking anyway, and a hull survey as he hoped to sell the boat and presumably thought that would be a good thing to have done to help the sale.

 

He did not know that we would buy the boat. We had borrowed it a couple of times the previous year, and we liked the interior design - still do! Buying this boat was a big step for us but the hull survey results looked good. When our boat is out for blacking this Summer, which we will do ourselves, I also would like someone to check the hull and be there so I can see for myself what is what. We have never seen the underside of this boat. I suspect it's probably in reasonable shape, but if work needs to be done, then it has to be done to keep this old tub floating for the next 10 years.

 

Once again - any hull surveyors in the Upper Peak Forest Canal catchment area?

[Captain Pegg]

Vulpes was blacked and had a pre-sale hull survey done prior to being placed on brokerage. The survey was made available to me and I judged it to be a properly professional piece of work. Comments on here supported my view of the surveyor and I also had sight of a large volume of information regarding the provenance of the boat. I commissioned my own internal survey - again another professional piece of work by someone who has been recommended on here - and had the hull survey transferred into my name for a nominal sum upon completion. That's a hull on which the base material was 47 years old.

 

I met my internal surveyor upon his arrival at the brokerage. We had a chat about the survey and a few points of interest relating to the boat and then I left him to get on with it. I wouldn't appreciate someone who isn't qualified to know about my work hovering over my shoulder while I am at work and therefore I wouldn't inflict that on someone else.

 

JP

Edited February 11, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[steve7a3]

Have now bought two boats. First one I had a full survey done and was told by the surveyor that he felt guilty taking my money because "she's built like a brick shithouse". Solid, not a mark on her, no problems. The second one I just had a hull survey and thank goodness I did! She was badly pitted and had been filled to mask it. This was clearly "missed" by the pervious surveyor, who is now in the process of being sued by the previous owner. The upshot is that the vendor dropped the price by the cost of replating and I will have a newly replated boat for the same price. If I hadn't had the survey, I'd have bought a boat that could have sunk in a year or so.

 

Always get a survey!

Edited February 16, 2016 by steve7a3

[zenataomm]

Just looked at a boat, like it 60k plus, boat owner and Mrs seem genuine and nice, I believe them, he services his boat and knows what he is talking about, only 7 yrs old, should I get a survey? yes is obvious answer, but if I believe them to be true, which I do, why throw a k away, has anyone done the deal and not surveyed ? I know why I should, but can anyone tell me to go with my gut feelings ?

 

I can!

Just go with your gut feelings.

After all it's your money not mine plus if at a later stage you discover something that the previous owner was not aware of such as damage caused to stern-gear when nobody was on board.

It won't concern me, nor will my sleep be affected.

 

Good luck.

[ukrizla]

quick update. a full survey was done on the boat I was looking at, and it took just over 4 hours. I have the survey report back, and apart from a few minor things, and a couple in red, we have decided to continue with the purchase. The red points were clear the intentionally blocked front door vents, and replace an RCD.

she is now being blacked as I type this.

Happy days

[WotEver]

Congratulations

[cuthound]

quick update. a full survey was done on the boat I was looking at, and it took just over 4 hours. I have the survey report back, and apart from a few minor things, and a couple in red, we have decided to continue with the purchase. The red points were clear the intentionally blocked front door vents, and replace an RCD.

she is now being blacked as I type this.

Happy days

Good news, only easy things to fix!

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of boating.