Who's in charge?

[nicknorman]

Who actually owns the boat? Whose name is on the license?

Can't answer for FtS but in our case, we paid half each for the boat and the licence is in both our names. So I don't think either of those factors determines who is "in charge".

[Pete of Ebor]

No-one has yet mentioned the "H" word...

Hireboats.

Who is in charge there ?The hire company usually make it clear that the named hirer is in charge (..or is that just liable..)

We had the situation a few years ago where the named hirer (..the chap who had actually hired the boat and signed the hire form..) had to leave to attend a funeral, though he would rejoin the boat two days later. Who would have been "in charge" - sorry, Liable in the meantime ?

[DHutch]

The skipper of the boat is in charge.

I agree.

 

Normally its clear who's I charge of the boat, and the overriding responsibility of the boat lies soley with than person.

 

They may delegate some and or all of the responsibility to another person(s) for a period, but in doing so take responsibility for any issues which arise from that.

 

Always rules will have exceptions and complications. But typically its really fairly clear.

 

 

Daniel

[Graham.m]

Can't answer for FtS but in our case, we paid half each for the boat and the licence is in both our names. So I don't think either of those factors determines who is "in charge".

Could it be a joint liability ?

[DHutch]

In what situation. Thames lock?

I operated one, first time ever, with a half million quid in palace and about four other local boats. I was 19 at the timez focused the mind a little!

...For example when Ian (The Boater) and I spent a day last month helping Fraz move his boat from Watford to Denham, Fraz was steering much of the time, so does that make him the "master"? Even though he was being taught how to steer from scratch by Ian, who is a very experienced boater?

Fraz was in charge, it was his responsibility to delegate some of the control of the boat to Ian and or yourself.

This could get interesting. If the lock keeper is a professional and something happened at his lock that his knowledge and experience should have dealt with then it is possible he would be the one at fault. If the lock keeper has told the boater to do something and the boater fails to do it, then it is the boater's responsibility.

Indeed.

... - the locks are interesting and in one case weird. You couldn't run them even if you wanted to. And the keepers are friendly, knowledgable and helpful.

Bloody ace though!

Could it be a joint liability ?

One of the issues when I go boating with the parents. I have much more experience of the boat, and canal boating in general. There names in the paperwork however! And they are my parents.

 

 

Daniel

[John V]

You lot are all wrong.......it's SWMBO

[Rufford]

Only inside the boat! Only inside the boat! Don't give them ideas!

[Robbo]

You lot are all wrong.......it's SWMBO

Skipper who must be obeyed?

[Tam & Di]

I find it a bit concerning when a Thames lock keeper draws the paddles then wanders off into his hut to fill in the forms.

 

There was an instance at Montargis lock in central France where the lock keeper drew a bit of paddle for a boat going downhill and asked the owner to come into the office to complete formalities. It took longer than usual for some reason and the boat fetched up on the cill. The The VNF (French C&RT) paid for subsequent docking and repair.

 

Tam

[Grebe]

In later years he may have made a mess of running the U s Navy, but in his heyday Rickover intoduced nuclear powered vessels to the world. His take on responsibility was clear

 

RESPONSIBILITY

 

 

Responsibility is a unique concept: it can only reside and inhere in a single individual.

 

You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished.

 

You may delegate it, but it is still with you.

 

Even if you do not recognise it or admit its presence, you cannot escape it.

 

If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance, or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else.

 

Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you never had anyone really responsible.

 

 

Admiral Hyram Rickover USN

[David Mack]

Could it be a joint liability ?

Yes. That was my point. And in the event of an incident an investigation will look into who did what, and anybody involved could be found at fault, regardless of who, if anybody, was nominally in charge.

[bassplayer]

Going into a lock with your boat.

Whose in charge?

Whose responsible for the safety of boat and crew?

Is the person operating the boat controls, responsible for the safety of the boat whilst in the lock?

 

 

I think a key point here is that it etiquette for whoever opens the paddles to check with the person at the controls first. In that sense, the one on the boat who has access to the controls is in charge as they have the ability to adjust the position of the boat with the throttle.

 

If someone is single handed and is handling the boat with a rope out of the boat then they have control.

 

In terms of safety. Everyone is in charge and responsible, but if the one in control is not giving clear instructions or watching and listening things could go wrong.

Edited December 8, 2015 by bassplayer

[FadeToScarlet]

I think a key point here is that it etiquette for whoever opens the paddles to check with the person at the controls first. In that sense, the one on the boat who has access to the controls is in charge as they have the ability to adjust the position of the boat with the throttle.

 

If someone is single handed and is handling the boat with a rope out of the boat then they have control.

 

In terms of safety. Everyone is in charge and responsible, but if the one in control is not giving clear instructions or watching and listening things could go wrong.

We often don't have someone at the controls. Far more efficient to be off and working gates and paddles.

 

Going down in a narrow lock- steerer steps off and closes top gate, then draws the other paddle once the boat is against the bottom gates. Steerer then opens one bottom gate, (or more usually both), motors the boat out of the lock, and closes both with a shaft, once clear.

 

Going up, I haven't yet been brave enough to stop the boat bringing itself in with a paddle, but once the steerer is happy it's ticking over against the cill they're up and opening a paddle, and then opening the top gate, dropping the paddles, and closing the top gate once the boat is out.

 

It means you can set ahead with two people.

[nicknorman]

I think a key point here is that it etiquette for whoever opens the paddles to check with the person at the controls first. In that sense, the one on the boat who has access to the controls is in charge as they have the ability to adjust the position of the boat with the throttle.

If someone is single handed and is handling the boat with a rope out of the boat then they have control.

In terms of safety. Everyone is in charge and responsible, but if the one in control is not giving clear instructions or watching and listening things could go wrong.

We take the view that the steerer is sufficiently competent to swiftly get the boat in the right position and keep it under control, and the lock wheeler sufficiently competent to decide when it is appropriate to open the paddles. Therefore I don't expect to be asked if its OK to open the paddles - OF COURSE it's ok to open the paddles if it looks OK. Naturally if something unforeseen happens, I would tell the lockwheeler to hold on a minute. But almost certainly I wouldn't need to as it would be obvious from my body language that something was wrong.

 

Of course that is when it is just the two of us. I do realise that there are lots of people out there who are a bit insecure in their abilities and who feel the need to be IN CHARGE and woe betide anybody who doesn't first beg for permission to be allowed to open the paddle. A bit sad really. On the one hand we have all the harking back to the good old days of the working boats etc, on the other hand we have this need for superfluous communication and power. I really can't imagine that in the "good old days" they did anything other than just getting on with it.

 

This control freakyness is something that has come in over the last 25 years or so, it never used to be like that.

Edited December 8, 2015 by nicknorman

[NilesMI]

Earlier this year I was single handing on my boat, heading down the GU. Came to this particular lock which was set against me, but I could see a boat approaching from the other direction so I opened the gate for them and had the usual cheery greetings with the couple on board.

 

Once the boat was in the lock, I closed the bottom gate and the lady member of crew went to operate the paddles on one side of the lock. I offered to operate the paddles on the other side - as you do.

 

But, the lady member of crew asked me to open the gate paddle first on "my" side of the lock, whereas the chap at the tiller seemed to be asking me to open the ground paddle first. I asked for clarification just to get the same confusing (to me) response.

 

Because I couldn't be clear in my own mind on what they wanted, I said I'd leave the lock to them, and went back to my boat to make a cup of tea.

 

I'm happy to admit that the confusion could have been due to my ignorance or misunderstanding, rather than the boat's crew not explaining properly. But whatever the reason, I was not prepared to operate any paddles for another boat, unless I was clear about what the crew wanted.

 

Having finished locking, the boat motored past me and the chap at the tiller offered a sarcastic "Thanks for your help!"

 

I can't help thinking that despite that comment, I did the right thing.

[Loafer]

Earlier this year I was single handing on my boat, heading down the GU. Came to this particular lock which was set against me, but I could see a boat approaching from the other direction so I opened the gate for them and had the usual cheery greetings with the couple on board.

 

Once the boat was in the lock, I closed the bottom gate and the lady member of crew went to operate the paddles on one side of the lock. I offered to operate the paddles on the other side - as you do.

 

But, the lady member of crew asked me to open the gate paddle first on "my" side of the lock, whereas the chap at the tiller seemed to be asking me to open the ground paddle first. I asked for clarification just to get the same confusing (to me) response.

 

Because I couldn't be clear in my own mind on what they wanted, I said I'd leave the lock to them, and went back to my boat to make a cup of tea.

 

I'm happy to admit that the confusion could have been due to my ignorance or misunderstanding, rather than the boat's crew not explaining properly. But whatever the reason, I was not prepared to operate any paddles for another boat, unless I was clear about what the crew wanted.

 

Having finished locking, the boat motored past me and the chap at the tiller offered a sarcastic "Thanks for your help!"

 

I can't help thinking that despite that comment, I did the right thing.

 

I agree.

[DHutch]

We often don't have someone at the controls. Far more efficient to be off and working gates and paddles.

 

Going down in a narrow lock- steerer steps off and closes top gate, then draws the other paddle once the boat is against the bottom gates. Steerer then opens one bottom gate, (or more usually both), motors the boat out of the lock, and closes both with a shaft, once clear.

 

Going up, I haven't yet been brave enough to stop the boat bringing itself in with a paddle, but once the steerer is happy it's ticking over against the cill they're up and opening a paddle, and then opening the top gate, dropping the paddles, and closing the top gate once the boat is out.

 

It means you can set ahead with two people.

Yeah, with two, we also set ahead and the person omon the boat does everything alone from entering the set lock. When going uphill I have been know to put the boat in slow reverse, jump off on the tail stairs and get the gate shut in time to keep the boat in. Having 14ft missing out of boat length helps in this instance, but its not something to do on a cold wet day or if the tail stairs are not favorable as getting runover by your own boat is I understand rather poor as best.

[DHutch]

I have also once failed to get on the boat after shutting the top gate with the boat in tick over as the regulator bounced on closing. Fortunately the pound was curvred in my favour and I just fended off the bow and got back on.

 

With three or more I aim not to use the lock ladders, so while going down the steerer often closes the top gate behind, and may even draw a paddle, they are back on before the cabin top goes below a small step down.

 

Given the nature of the way the boat is run roles are often rotated, but I always remain responsible, and typically remain with if not on always on the boat.

 

The steerer also sometimes leaves the helm to take the oportunuty to check on the engine and plant and or fire the boiler. One the locks 2/3 done in volume (around 1/2 or even 1/3 in time) things go wrong much slower typically.

 

 

Daniel.

[Machpoint005]

Food for thought, I hope:

 

Supposing I am the steerer, and thus deemed to be in charge, and I have just entered a full lock. The lockie ties off my centre line and then disappears.

 

Shouldn't it be down to me to be able to detach the boat end of the line if a problem arises? If necessary using a bloody big knife?

[Graham.m]

One of the issues when I go boating with the parents. I have much more experience of the boat, and canal boating in general. There names in the paperwork however! And they are my parents.

 

 

Daniel

I don't think the names on the paperwork matters. I suspect if the names on the paperwork appoint someone with more experience than they have then the appointee is responsible.

We take the view that the steerer is sufficiently competent to swiftly get the boat in the right position and keep it under control, and the lock wheeler sufficiently competent to decide when it is appropriate to open the paddles. Therefore I don't expect to be asked if its OK to open the paddles - OF COURSE it's ok to open the paddles if it looks OK. Naturally if something unforeseen happens, I would tell the lockwheeler to hold on a minute. But almost certainly I wouldn't need to as it would be obvious from my body language that something was wrong.

 

Of course that is when it is just the two of us. I do realise that there are lots of people out there who are a bit insecure in their abilities and who feel the need to be IN CHARGE and woe betide anybody who doesn't first beg for permission to be allowed to open the paddle. A bit sad really. On the one hand we have all the harking back to the good old days of the working boats etc, on the other hand we have this need for superfluous communication and power. I really can't imagine that in the "good old days" they did anything other than just getting on with it.

 

This control freakyness is something that has come in over the last 25 years or so, it never used to be like that.

 

So what happens if you are in a lock with another boat?

[Athy]

Near the steering position on our last boat was a plaque "I am the captain of this ship, and I have my wife's permission to say so".

[johnmck]

Earlier this year I was single handing on my boat, heading down the GU. Came to this particular lock which was set against me, but I could see a boat approaching from the other direction so I opened the gate for them and had the usual cheery greetings with the couple on board.

 

Once the boat was in the lock, I closed the bottom gate and the lady member of crew went to operate the paddles on one side of the lock. I offered to operate the paddles on the other side - as you do.

 

But, the lady member of crew asked me to open the gate paddle first on "my" side of the lock, whereas the chap at the tiller seemed to be asking me to open the ground paddle first. I asked for clarification just to get the same confusing (to me) response.

 

Because I couldn't be clear in my own mind on what they wanted, I said I'd leave the lock to them, and went back to my boat to make a cup of tea.

 

I'm happy to admit that the confusion could have been due to my ignorance or misunderstanding, rather than the boat's crew not explaining properly. But whatever the reason, I was not prepared to operate any paddles for another boat, unless I was clear about what the crew wanted.

 

Having finished locking, the boat motored past me and the chap at the tiller offered a sarcastic "Thanks for your help!"

 

I can't help thinking that despite that comment, I did the right thing.

I do not know if this is the answer to the above, but...

When we are ascending broad locks on our lonesome, we use one gate to enter, position the boat against the wall, then open the ground paddle on the same side. This tends to pin the boat to said wall and negates the need for ropes. When the boat has settled, the opposite gate paddle is opened, again holding the boat in place.

 

So only one ground and one gate paddle used. A tad slower, but very civilised and works for us, normally!

[Mike Todd]

I do not know if this is the answer to the above, but...

When we are ascending broad locks on our lonesome, we use one gate to enter, position the boat against the wall, then open the ground paddle on the same side. This tends to pin the boat to said wall and negates the need for ropes. When the boat has settled, the opposite gate paddle is opened, again holding the boat in place.

 

So only one ground and one gate paddle used. A tad slower, but very civilised and works for us, normally!

The effects of top paddles vary across the system. Whilst what you describe is common, it is best to keep an eye on it every time as some work quite differently. The effect also depends on where - for and back - the boat is positioned in the lock.

 

The one thing about working locks that maintains interest even after having done it hundreds of times is that they are never the same as the last one.

[nicknorman]

 

So what happens if you are in a lock with another boat?

Most of our boating is narrow canals but whenever we have been in wide locks it's never been an issue. What doesn't happen is one of us just winding paddles oblivious to what is going on in the lock. But equally, no need to get written permission from the other boat before opening paddles. With the wide locks in our area (Grand Union 1930s ham baker paddles gear) they are well designed in terms of multiple water outlets and so hardly any forward or back suction. Once the gates are closed its time to wind the paddles. Simple!

 

I suppose if someone does require to give written permission before we wind the paddles they have the option to go through the locks with somebody else or on their own, but it has never happened and I've been boating on and off since the 1960s.

 

If we are helping someone else through locks, these days I am careful not to offend by opening paddles without bowing and scraping because I know some folk are pretty incompetent and scared and, for instance, might want the paddles opened one click at a time regardless of whether the locks are violent or placid.

Edited December 8, 2015 by nicknorman

[Loafer]

I know I posted this a couple of years ago, but there may be another giggle in it by now!

 

'I think locking is a bit like having a poo.

 

Make sure you position yourself correctly in the facility.

 

Don't go too far forward, or there's a risk of getting summat caught under the gate. (If on the rise)

 

Don't go too far back, or you'll rub your back end on summat, and leave a bit of a stain.

 

Don't talk to anyone.

 

If there's anyone watching you, just ignore them and continue texting.

 

If there's a massive tilt developing, get off and stand clear. The bog has probably come loose.'