Seriously scary moment at Hillmorton - And another volunteer lock-keeper concern.

[Machpoint005]

 

I would say not preferably at all TBH. But definitely.

 

If the trust really are letting volunteers loose on the system without any training at all then that is very worrying. If a vol locky sinks a boat in a lock and people are harmed or worse die as a result the H&SE will be all over them like a rash, if it emerges then that they receive no training what so ever then they can expect a pretty hefty fine I would say, at the very least. A good litigation lawyer would also take them to the cleaners.

 

I too was one of the people who gave DaveMayall a hard time when he raised the issue it looks like I owe him an apology aswell

 

My wording was based on the reality that several of 'em already seem to be in post and untrained (or not trained to the necessary standard), but in respect of new volunteers, yes, I agree.

 

It's presumably CRT that would have to pick up the bill, but the legal status of the volocky himself would no doubt contribute squillions to m'learned friends' pension schemes!

[Starcoaster]

But it is just that, considering we have taken Badsey out every year for the last ten years for an average of two solid months each time.

And yes we have of course lost it a number of times.

Difference is that we didn't then get on this forum to call in the wolf pack to get a man sacked.

 

Were you the volunteer involved in this incident?

If not, were you there watching the events unfold?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Starcoaster

[Machpoint005]

 

Were you the volunteer involved in this incident?

If not, were you there watching the vents unfold?

 

Listening to them, rather?

 

I imagine a slow farty noise.

[Tacet]

In this case, dropping the paddle (as requested by the boaters) was clearly the correct course of action. And in the great majority of cases, lowering the paddle whilst the situation (whatever it might be) is assessed is the best course.

 

But a universal rule that a lock-keeper must immediately obey the instructions of any crew member won't necessarily result in the best outcome. For example, there can be more than one party involved in an incident.

 

 

[Machpoint005]

In this case, dropping the paddle (as requested by the boaters) was clearly the correct course of action. And in the great majority of cases, lowering the paddle whilst the situation (whatever it might be) is assessed is the best course.

 

But a universal rule that a lock-keeper must immediately obey the instructions of any crew member won't necessarily result in the best outcome. For example, there can be more than one party involved in an incident.

 

 

 

I can't readily think of a situation in which dropping a paddle will imperil a boat. Not doing so is entirely different.

And it's not any crew member, it's the master.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Machpoint005

[Top cat]

With our boat any CREW member can call for paddles to be dropped. The steerer may not see a hang up at the front for example. IMHO everyone involved has a responsibility for and role in the safe operation of the lock.

 

As a result of this one practice we are going to review carefully is Chris going onto prepare the next lock while I rise or fall leaving no one lockside to deal with issues

 

I would be most interested to see what response CaRT make to this incident.

 

Top Cat

[Tam & Di]

This is exactly it.

 

Regardless of the volockies' training and experience, they were given a clear instruction by the boater in charge of the boat, and ignored it.

 

Even if the volocky is 100% convinced ((wrongly in this case) that there's no danger, they are still not in charge of the lock- and it's not their boat!- and instructions like that need to be followed instantly.

 

I don't think it needs punishment because this wasn't malicious, just misguided- which means they need to be retrained, and have their role reiterated to them.

 

Is that what they are told? One difficulty is that it would be impossible to train every volunteer lock-keeper to react to every possible scenario. Alan's is pretty rare and the one I described involving a loaded boat getting hung up was too. What is required is more an attitude - a definition of their exact role. To what extent are they an official lock keeper as opposed to someone offering to help? C&RT need to come up with something that will satisfy interaction between the volunteer and a complete novice and also with an experienced boater. They also need to publicise that role so boaters know what it is.

 

It would be interesting to hear C&RT's view of their insurance liability. I can see that when volunteers are used for many tasks all that is required is indemnity to protect the volunteer, but in this context there is a requirement for indemnity to protect the public from the volunteer too.

 

Tam

[David_Fincher]

What to me stands out was the actual cause of the incident. Hanging up a full size historic in a lock. Twice.

we have taken Badsey out every year for the last ten years for an average of two solid months each time.

And yes we have of course lost it a number of times.

How many of these cases also involved other people working the lock?

 

While we (as in Alan, Cath and I) did hang Flamingo twice, that part of the incident would have been relatively trivial on its own. Had the volunteer either not been there, or immediately taken action, things would quickly have been under control and it would have all been fairly minor.

 

I'd be sceptical of any boater who said he/she never got caught on a lock. It happens from time to time, regardless of crew experience, but handled quickly, it's not a situation of major consequence (some broken crockery, maybe). Getting hung on a lock is of course not an exemplary situation, but I don't think our actions in the situation were in any way amateurish.

 

I can't speak exactly for everything that Cath and Alan did in the circumstances, as I wasn't a direct witness to it all (as has been said, this started with me inside the boat), but I have no particular reason to believe that their stories are greatly embellished, and I personally took immediate and decisive corrective action the moment I noticed the boat starting to list.

 

Regarding the interests of the volunteer, is it not best that he gets a some reminder that "Drop the paddles" (whoever shouts it) means "Drop them NOW"? (Unless perhaps you're in a situation in which you can see that this would actually worsen things, but I can't actually think of one).

This incident isn't a major black mark (as it was ultimately resolved safely), but what position would he be in if he made a similar call in the future, only with a less experienced crew who might be unable or unwilling to make the decision to overrule him?

 

Personally, as unpleasant as I find it to be dressed down over a safety screw-up (and it has happened when I've worked as a stage technician), I would always prefer that over making the mistake again; It's not a game, and it could have very real consequences.

Edited August 27, 2015 by David_Fincher

[sueb]

Has this been reported to CRT yet?

[mango]

I don't mean to pick apart your wording in too much detail, but you do say "we have of course lost it". How many of these cases also involved other people working the lock?

 

While we (as in Alan, Cath and I) did hang Flamingo twice, that part of the incident would have been relatively trivial on its own. Had the volunteer either not been there, or immediately taken action, things would quickly have been under control and it would have all been fairly minor.

 

I'd be sceptical of any boater who said he/she never got caught on a lock. It happens from time to time, regardless of crew experience, but handled quickly, it's not a situation of major consequence (some broken crockery, maybe). Getting hung on a lock is of course not an exemplary situation, but I don't think our actions in the situation were in any way amateurish.

 

I can't speak exactly for everything that Cath and Alan did in the circumstances, as I wasn't a direct witness to it all (as has been said, this started with me inside the boat), but I have no particular reason to believe that their stories are greatly embellished, and I personally took immediate and decisive corrective action the moment I noticed the boat starting to list.

 

Regarding the interests of the volunteer, is it not best that he gets a some reminder that "Drop the paddles" (whoever shouts it) means "Drop them NOW"? (Unless perhaps you're in a situation in which you can see that this would actually worsen things, but I can't actually think of one).

This incident isn't a major black mark (as it was ultimately resolved safely), but what position would he be in if he made a similar call in the future, only with a less experienced crew who might be unable or unwilling to make the decision to overrule him?

 

Personally, as unpleasant as I find it to be dressed down over a safety screw-up (and it has happened when I've worked as a stage technician), I would always prefer that over making the mistake again; It's not a game, and it could have very real consequences.

Welcome David. That's a very honest and balanced first post.

[bizzard]

DROP EM NOW!! bawled out to these volocky folk might be taken the wrong way and they may think its a bit queer.

[nicknorman]

DROP EM NOW!! bawled out to these volocky folk might be taken the wrong way and they may think its a bit queer.

Spoilsport.

[MtB]

Welcome David. That's a very honest and balanced first post.

 

 

Seconded.

 

Welcome David.

[bassplayer]

 

 

Seconded.

 

Welcome David.

Thirded...who's David?

[nicknorman]

Thirded...who's David?

Alan and Cath's son. Oh, and sometime assistant to Telemachus' locking crew for the BCN Challenge 2014.

 

Welcome David.

Edited August 27, 2015 by nicknorman

[Guest]

Thirded...who's David?

Er... The clue is in the name.

[MtB]

It's ok, he's a bass player

 

[The Bearwood Boster]

At the end of the day,it's your boat & the volocky /person dealing with the paddles should follow YOUR instructions.I'd be manic if they ignored me in this situation.I find Canalchef's post offensive & it did make me wonder if they wanted to 'have a go' at Alan & Cath for some reason.All I cansay is,glad you're all ok(especially Odin !) & I look forward to seeing Flamingo somewhere on the canals in the future.

Trina

[bassplayer]

It's ok, he's a bass player

 

[bottle]

Welcome David. That's a very honest and balanced first post.

 

He got that from his Father, I expect his Mother had a hand in there as well.

[Alan Saunders]

I suggest that a request from anyone, not just those identified as crew, to close the paddles should be obeyed immediately and without question.

Initial and (annual) refresher training of Volockies should commence with the many available images of boats hung up, sunk or capsized in locks.

 

What is the point of Volockies? Most posters with adequate crew or single-handed are happy to operate locks without assistance. In my experience the professionals do a good job in managing the safe and efficient passage of lock flights and rarely need to use their windlass.

 

I have been 'hung up' twice:

Descending a Thames lock my counter rested on the steps (probably due to an over enthusiastic crew on the stern line) and the boat started to list, I shouted "Close the paddles!", I should have said 'sluices' but the lock keeper immediately complied and shouted back "Don't try to push it off!".

Descending a Southern Oxford lock a BW employee helped me by opening the opposite gate paddle, when the bow fender started to hang on the gate he immediately and rapidly closed his paddle without any instruction from me.

 

Thank goodness that Alan, Catrin, David, Odin and 'Flamingo' are unharmed.

 

@Alan F, please report this incident to CRT; a 'no-blame' culture should ensure that lessons are learned. Ideally, you could take the opportunity to make your views known as to the position and appropriate role of the Volockie versus the responsibility of the 'master' and crew for their owned, shared, borrowed or hired vessel.

 

Alan

[David Mack]

However as he is not an employee none of this is particularly relevant really, I was really just outlining how serious it should be taken.

If the volunteer is there in an 'official' CRT capacity, then CRT's legal duties will surely be exactly the same as if he was a paid employee. Which is one reason why CRT should be taking this seriously.

 

Which is different from the case where a helpful bloke with a windlass just turns up, or another boater wanders along to help.

[FadeToScarlet]

Further thoughts- in the event of someone falling into a lock chamber, the correct course of action is to close all paddles immediately.

 

It's immaterial how much experience the boaters have, and how much the person operating the paddles does. Similarly, if I was gongoozling and spotted something wrong, I'd call the same thing, and hope it was acted upon- and do it myself if not, I.e. If the boater is singlehanded on the other side of the lock.

 

I can't think of any case where dropping paddles would make a situation worse.

 

I'm certain that the best course of action for anyone operating paddles is to drop them.immediately anyone calls for it, be they on a boat, observing, another boater, even a passer by- much, much better to be safe than sorry, and then sort it out afterwards.

[Emerald Fox]

As this is about danger in locks, and especially about getting 'hung up', perhaps my little tale would be relevant?

I think it was between Todmorden & Hebden Bridge, this Summer, going downhill, I forget which lock.

Witchy was doing the winding stuff (as usual) and I just let the boat drift about as I had done before - wide locks y'see, and they seem to behave themselves quite well, our little 40-footer not being drawn forwards or backwards alarmingly when going uphill nor downhill.

 

This time the boat drifted forwards, front fender nose button touched the gate, nose of boat went over to the left a bit. When the lock was empty (lower doors still closed) I thought I'd reverse a touch and get in the middle, but nothing happened. We were stuck a bit, sort of wedged between the gate and left corner of the wall. I asked W to fill the lock a bit, and the nose came free. Then I saw what had caused this (apart from my sloppiness) - the corner/edge of the wall had a bit missing and the boat's guard iron (? bit sticking out at gunwhale) had run down along the edge and gone in to the cut-away and stopped at the cut-away's lower lip.

 

There could well have been a danger if that cut-away/bit missing were higher up and I had been inside fetching some more whisky, or on the loo! No, even though we have a little boat we work locks with our eyes all the way through, seconds count. I should have kept the boat away from that corner - haven't had that kind of thing happen before, but now we know about that and can add it to our experiences. It's a slant on the usual getting noses stuck in the gates.

[mayalld]

Punishment is not always the way to get the best results in my experience and the person made a mistake he needs to know this and receive again or otherwise the instructions to operate correctly and be encouraged to do so and if necessary supervise them to see that they have taken it onboard. I doubt it could be shown as gross negligence, negligent perhaps or a mistaken or slow reaction to a situation. I have seen other boaters do worse.

 

people make mistakes, I know it may not seem that way with all the perfect people on here but we all would like to be treated fairly and with proportion if we make a mistake.

 

I don't believe that we are talking about "punishment" here.

 

Whilst I accept that if working the locks is something that the volunteer enjoys, suspending him from doing so may well seem like a punishment, that isn't the intention.

 

A volunteer should not be allowed to start work on locks until he has proved his competence. If at any time his competence is in question, he must be suspended until such time as he has shown that the deficiencies are rectified.

 

His failure to drop the paddles raises a doubt about his competence, so he should be off the locks until he has been educated about what he should do.

 

I rather suspect that the "training" volunteers receive is somewhat perfunctory, and that there is a lack of verification that it has been understood.