Can't get our engine to start!

[Lmcgrath87]

After a successful trip yesterday we're trying to head off but our engine wont start. I have literally no idea what to it. Its making a ticking noise instead of its normal start sound.

[pete.i]

Sounds to me like your starter battery might be flat. Can you use jump leads to jump start from your domestics. warning though this can be a bit dangerous if you don't know what you are doing as you could cause rather large sparks and making the connections the wrong way round could damage other things but otherwise the procedure is exactly the same as jump starting a car.

[Lmcgrath87]

I don't think we have any jump leads but we had come to that conclusion. I'm not sure what we did wrong.

[b0atman]

Starter battery voltage ?

[Alan de Enfield]

Diagnosis by interweb is a bit difficult but a 'ticking' sound could well be the starter motor.

 

Usually caused by either a flat battery or a loose connection so that the starter cannot draw the current it needs.

 

1) Have you got a test meter to see what voltage is on the starter battery, both 'at rest' and when trying to turn over the starter ?

2) Jiggle all of the big fat wires on the battery terminals and on the starter itself. - tighten if loose.

[pete.i]

Well withoout being there it's difficult to know but your alternator could be faulty, that is the most likely being that you have done a longish cruise and now find your battery is flat. But of course there are a myriad of other things that couls cause it. Can you get to somewhere like Halfords or a motor factors to buy some jump leads. They are a useful thing to havwe on board anyway.

Where are you someone may be able to meet up with you and give you a hand or are you a member of River and Canal Rescue (RCR)?

[Lmcgrath87]

Haven't got anyone we can ask really, I could get home and get jump leads but I have no idea what I am doing. I have never jump started a car before! Looks like RCR.

[LEO]

Sorry to read of your problem - the joys of boat ownership.

 

Might also be worth cleaning up the terminals/clamps and battery posts to improve the connection. I would also check the water level in the battery and factor in the purchase of a new battery.

 

Take care when checking fluid levels - small acid splashes occur and are only noticed a few days later when holes in the fabric begin - I have just gained another pair of shorts due to this - having to cut the legs off a pair of 'strides' .

 

Good Luck.

 

L

[Bettie Boo]

Where abouts are you located, as said earlier, there may be a member that is close by with leads

[alan_fincher]

Do what has been suggested in the duplicate thread.

 

Buy or borrow a multimeter, and set it to a range to measure DC volts, (often a maximum 20V range?)

 

Measure voltage across starter battery when not trying to start engine.

 

Repeat measurement when you have actually got key turned to the start position.

 

(And, if you feel able, repeat again, but measuring the actual voltage at starter motor, not battery).

 

I'm struggling to see this as a flat starter battery, because if it started fine yesterday, and circuitry to stop you flattening it when the engine is not running is working OK, then there should be more life than that in it today.

 

Far more likely, IMO, to be a loose connection somewhere, or possibly dirty contacts within the solenoid on the starter motor that actually pass the current to the motor itself, once the gear on the motor has been thrown in to engage the one on the flywheel.

 

But, as has been said, diagnosis on the Internet can mislead. Whee are you - any chance of finding a more experienced boater prepared to take a look?

[bizzard]

Haven't got anyone we can ask really, I could get home and get jump leads but I have no idea what I am doing. I have never jump started a car before! Looks like RCR.

Make sure all your start battery terminal connections are clean and tight. The connections at the starter motor solenoid, the engine neg- cable connections from engine to battery neg post. Twiddle your engines isolator switch off and on a few times. Tap the starter solenoid a couple of times. If then 'no go' check battery condition, state of charge, alternator belt and charge rate with a volt meter. And then jump leads. Everyone should carry proper heavy duty jump leads, not the cheapo crap ones.

[RLWP]

What sort of ticking sound? I'm wondering if your starter solenoid isn't contacting properly

 

Richard

[Paul C]

If its a flat starter battery and you don't have any jump leads, then you could swap it with one of the leisure batteries (so long as they're not flat...) as a temporary measure.

 

BUT I suspect there's a bit more to it, an underlying condition which meant either the batteries aren't charging properly, the split charge relay is stuck on (so the starter and leisure batteries were joined up and you've flattened the lot) or if you have one of those "1, 2, 1+2, off" switches its not been used properly. There's a lot of variation in how boats can be wired, so its a bit of a guessing game over the internet.

 

I'll also agree with Alan, it sounds like more than just a starter battery flat. Our split charge relay failed (wire came off) leaving the single alternator to charge just the domestic batteries, the starter motor battery could in theory start the engine 40-50 times before suffering, all told for this time of year they're somewhat overspecified and it actually takes much less energy than the battery can store, to start a motor.

 

Diagnosis starts with taking accurate voltage readings at various logical places.

[Athy]

L, this is the Lord's way of reminding you that you should consider joining RCR (River And Canal rescue) - a kind of RAC of the waterways. Membership is not very expensive, and if you break down, they will come and get you started.

 

No, I know that's not much bloody help at this moment, hope you have got it sorted by now.

[Dave Clinton]

I am sorry but that is simply not good advice.

 

The best approach is learn a little about the various things that prevent an engine starting by having someone come around and help you and show you a few things at the same time. It is impossible to diagnosis this over the net except for the few obvious things above. Halford jump leads are about as useful as (insert current simile) and a sidetrack. Do not do this.

 

RCR membership may be and probably is useful but not for a common occurrence such as this. In this case experience and knowledge are the only way. Do you really, do they really, want RCR called out every time your battery terminals need a bit of a clean?

 

Boats are not cars.

[bizzard]

I bought my jump leads when I was an apprentice many, many moons ago for £15, which probably equates to about £60 today. They have jumped thousands of vehicles in that time, from motorbikes through to cars, vans, coaches, huge heavy goods vehicles and boats and are still going strong, although I have had to remake the clamp connections a few times which has gradually shortened them.

[pete.i]

I am sorry but that is simply not good advice.

 

The best approach is learn a little about the various things that prevent an engine starting by having someone come around and help you and show you a few things at the same time. It is impossible to diagnosis this over the net except for the few obvious things above. Halford jump leads are about as useful as (insert current simile) and a sidetrack. Do not do this.

 

RCR membership may be and probably is useful but not for a common occurrence such as this. In this case experience and knowledge are the only way. Do you really, do they really, want RCR called out every time your battery terminals need a bit of a clean?

 

Boats are not cars.

What a stupid post at this juncture. Of course Halfords jump leads are fine as long as you don't go for the cheap ones RCR membership is fine if, like most people, you do not know what you are doing. I am so glad that you are one of the "clever" ones.

I'm out of here

[dor]

What sort of engine is it? It is unlikely to be a flat starter battery if it started easily the previous time. Starting an engine takes very little out of a battery unless you are turning a cold engine over for ages.

 

If it is a Vetus, e.g. M4.15 or M4.17, there is a black box on the back of the engine. Inside are two simple automotive relays and one of these operates the starter solenoid ( a sort of relay to engage the relay to engage the starter arrangement). This is prone to failing and can be usually be fixed by wiggling it/ pulling it out and reconnecting it (make sure the lucar connectors re-engage and don't get pushed out). I don't know if other engines use this arrangement.

 

Otherwise, check all the wires are tight on the starter solenoid as suggested above.

[Paul C]

After a successful trip yesterday we're trying to head off but our engine wont start. I have literally no idea what to it. Its making a ticking noise instead of its normal start sound.

 

Whereabouts are you located now? Maybe a helpful forum member can take a look at the issue. I suspect I am too far away....

[Tony Brooks]

What sort of engine is it? It is unlikely to be a flat starter battery if it started easily the previous time. Starting an engine takes very little out of a battery unless you are turning a cold engine over for ages.

 

If it is a Vetus, e.g. M4.15 or M4.17, there is a black box on the back of the engine. Inside are two simple automotive relays and one of these operates the starter solenoid ( a sort of relay to engage the relay to engage the starter arrangement). This is prone to failing and can be usually be fixed by wiggling it/ pulling it out and reconnecting it (make sure the lucar connectors re-engage and don't get pushed out). I don't know if other engines use this arrangement.

 

Otherwise, check all the wires are tight on the starter solenoid as suggested above.

 

 

And most modern engines have at least one multi-plug connector on their main wiring harness. When these get loose or dirty they can give all sorts of symptoms. Maybe locate it (probably inside two big "rubber" sleeves) and give it some GBH to see if the problem clears.

[Dave Clinton]

What a stupid post at this juncture. Of course Halfords jump leads are fine as long as you don't go for the cheap ones RCR membership is fine if, like most people, you do not know what you are doing. I am so glad that you are one of the "clever" ones.

 

I'm out of here

 

Telling someone who says "I could get home and get jump leads but I have no idea what I am doing." to spend £35 on jump leads is the stupid part. Halfords largest jump leads are 35mm² and whereas they might, if used with care, do the job - if that's the job that is needed, which is by no means certain, or have you made a successful diagnosis over the net? - could just as easily melt if used to start a big boat diesel.

 

Yes, I agree, out of here is the best place for you.

[alan_fincher]

Please stop the personal falling outs people - it is not helpful to the OP.

 

I agree that poor quality cheapo jump leads are not usually a good purchase, and that they are probably not what is going to be needed here.

 

However I would have thought it unlikely that cheap ones are going to be so cheap that they will actually melt if used in this way. On narrow boat diesel engines I have measured, starting current is usually no more than a couple of hundred amps, and most will I think survive that without insulation burning off, even if you try for a while. If it continues to only "click" the strong likelihood is that it will not be drawing much current anyway.

 

The volts drop may be enough to make them useless, although in my experience it is crap croc clips that is often the worst bit of the equation, but I don't think either way you'll actually start a fire, (provided correctly connected).

 

But I'm convinced the starting point here is to measure voltages. I've not noticed if OP has done this, or indeed indicated where they are, in the hope that a CWDF member may be able to go and assist.

If we are going to continue to discuss this, is there any reason why we can not be polite to each other, even if we disagree?

 

EDIT:

 

OP needs to tell us what engine type, (assuming it is not here somewhere) - the suggestions about dodgy multi-pin connectors may be very valid, if it is one of the more modern types that makes use of them.

Edited April 24, 2015 by alan_fincher

[John Williamson 1955]

As Bettie Boo asks, where are you? If you're within a reasonable range of Bulls Bridge on the Grand Union, I could nip over and have a look if you wish today (24/4/2015) or tomorrow? I have decent jump leads and a portable jump starter, which starts mine quite nicely.

[zenataomm]

6 times you've been asked where you are.

 

I can only guess you've got it running now?

I hope so and also that you've cured it, there's nothing so heart clenching as that moment when you hit the starter and wonder if you're day's about to be ruined.

[Lmcgrath87]

We are in Maidenhead, waiting for rcr to come help. I have no battery on my phone so just gonna wait it out and leave it to the professionals!