"red diesel"

[ditchcrawler]

 

How so?

 

If we have to go white 100% tax will be paid on all of it. So one tank will still be fine, as I understand it.

 

MtB

I have a diesel cooker several people have diesel heating. no reason why you cant run on heating oil

[Bob Blues]

For what it is worth, My view on this is that a Diesel engine although more efficient than a Petrol can only achieve 25-30% efficiency.

The new BMW engines are claimed to be 34% but a old NB engine will never be more than 20%. The rest going to heat etc.

So, Bearing this in mind and the time actually spent moving compared to idling whilst waiting for locks, chatting, enjoying a pint whilst the engine charges etc, means that the time spent propulsion and with the efficiency figures I claim between 15% and 20% depending on how long I cruse for. Never more than 20%. and 0% when I'm moored up the the winter.

 

Bob

 

I have a diesel cooker several people have diesel heating. no reason why you cant run on heating oil

My GF just had 1500 lts of heating oil delivered to her house it was 69p ltr including vat.

Time to take some Jerrycans down I think Smells like Diesel.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

My GF just had 1500 lts of heating oil delivered to her house it was 69p ltr including vat.

Time to take some Jerrycans down I think Smells like Diesel.

 

I've just had 1500 litres CH oil this moring at £0.575 inc VAT

Thats £165 difference - is oil that much dearer in your patch, or did she not phone arond ?

[rjasmith]

GF just had 1500 lts of heating oil delivered to her house it was 69p ltr including vat.

Time to take some Jerrycans down I think Smells like Diesel.

 

Perhaps you were only saying this in jest but despite the nice diesely smell of the heating oil it's likely to be 28 second kerosene (like paraffin) and not 35 second gas oil (or dyed ULSD) similar to diesel.

 

Not to be recommended as fuel for most modernish diesel engines!

 

Good for steam cars like this though!

 

Richard

[jelunga]

 

No Gas Oil is the old red diesel (ie with no Bio fuel and more sulphur) and is still sold in some rural garages but nowadays it will almost certainly be dyed white diesel.

 

Kerosene is basicly the same as paraffin, and is what paraffin is called in America, It used to be sold in rural garages because old tractors used to run on it (I can still smell the distinctive exhaust fumes!!!)

 

Kerosene is sold in the UK for oil fired central heating. Although some people say that diesel can be used for central heating, it is not advisable to use kerosene in a diesel engine.

 

Maybe Tony Brooks will come on shortly with a better informed answer.

Many years ago a friebd used to run his Austin Champ on 50/50 kero petrol.

Army Bedford MK trucks could run on mulitifuels and I think kero was one of them

[MtB]

I have a diesel cooker several people have diesel heating. no reason why you cant run on heating oil

 

I thought the whole point of the impending change to 'white only' diesel in boats was to prevent this.

 

 

mtB

[Bettie Boo]

Sue has aweb page that shows who does not allow self declaration and who does

http://www.noproblem.org.uk/blog/links/diesel_split.htm

Another great link for novices - Thanks ditchcrawler

 

B~

[Orca]

 

Many years ago a friebd used to run his Austin Champ on 50/50 kero petrol.

Army Bedford MK trucks could run on mulitifuels and I think kero was one of them

Indeed so - and I recall it was Avgas the Bedfords ran on in the Army; which is essentially kerosene with a few chemical additives to give an even leaner burn.

 

Diesel engines will run no problem on kerosene, PROVIDED an additive is mixed in to give the same lubricative properties to the fuel pump as sulphur did (in the old fuel), though in essence it's best to just mix diesel in with it. Bio-fuels now provide the necessary lubricant in diesel I believe (amongst other things?) and for kerosene adding a ratio of veg oil will suffice. In a similar vein a jet turbine will run on diesel, but it's more aggressive combustability will damage the turbine blades over time. I once heard of an instance where a Jetranger helicopter was running a 50/50 kero diesel mix for a while on each 4th fill.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Orca

[IanM]

 

Not to be recommended as fuel for most modernish diesel engines!

 

 

As you say, not great for modern diesels but I know a Lister HA3 that ran quite happily on the stuff for years

[Dave Payne]

Diesel engines will run no problem on kerosene, PROVIDED an additive is mixed in to give the same lubricative properties to the fuel pump as sulphur did (in the old fuel), though in essence it's best to just mix diesel in with it. Bio-fuels now provide the necessary lubricant in diesel I believe (amongst other things?) and for kerosene adding a ratio of veg oil will suffice.

 

Be very cautious with the ratio, to much in the wrong pump will end badly!

[ditchcrawler]

 

I thought the whole point of the impending change to 'white only' diesel in boats was to prevent this.

 

 

mtB

No its to stop you running your engine on rebated fuel. If you have a refrigerated lorry you can have a tank for red to run the refrigeration plant while the propulsion engine runs on white.

[Bob Blues]

 

I've just had 1500 litres CH oil this moring at £0.575 inc VAT

Thats £165 difference - is oil that much dearer in your patch, or did she not phone arond ?

that was for Somerset. I guess she just took the local delivery as normal.

 

Bob

[MtB]

No its to stop you running your engine on rebated fuel. If you have a refrigerated lorry you can have a tank for red to run the refrigeration plant while the propulsion engine runs on white.

 

I know that. I'm trying to discuss the planned future changes, not the situation now.

 

I think we'll have to wait and see what the new regulations say when published. Even if they allow us to continue carrying red diesel on the boat for heating purposes only, I can't imagine boatyards stocking both red and white. It will be white only.

 

MtB

[ditchcrawler]

 

I know that. I'm trying to discuss the planned future changes, not the situation now.

 

I think we'll have to wait and see what the new regulations say when published. Even if they allow us to continue carrying red diesel on the boat for heating purposes only, I can't imagine boatyards stocking both red and white. It will be white only.

 

MtB

I think the last line of your post is very true, I don't think there was anything ever proposed to insist you use white for heating only, but it was down to using rebated for propulsion.

[Mike Tee]

Perhaps we will have to go down the route of filling everything with white diesel, then fill out a Euroform in triplicate to claim back the overpaid duty on the heating fuel. I bet both us and the Inland Revenue would look forward to that scenario. Not.

[fudd]

I may have missed something here.

I thought the idea of having two tanks was to have one for rebated fuel and one for full price fuel. Are they going to make us pay full price for heating and generating electricity?

[Mike Tee]

I may have missed something here.

I thought the idea of having two tanks was to have one for rebated fuel and one for full price fuel. Are they going to make us pay full price for heating and generating electricity?

They probably (this is all supposition) won't make you pay full price, but if it is uneconomical for the boatyard to stock both, you won't be able to buy dedicated heating oil. We would then be in the reversed position of not needing separate tanks - full circle!

[ditchcrawler]

So how much red diesel would you need to burn to cover the cost of a second tank, I think price difference is about 50p lt. and don't forget it would only be for a generator, diesel heating and cooking. not the main engine to charge batteries and heat water.

[MtB]

Never mind the cost, I don't have anywhere to put a second tank. Nor am I prepared to be lugging jerry cans from the van to the boat constantly, decanting it without spillage or doing my back in, let alone wasting time and money driving around trying to find a supplier of red diesel willing to sell me the stuff into jerry cans.

 

I'd rather be boating!

 

MtB

[bottle]

I may have missed something here.

I thought the idea of having two tanks was to have one for rebated fuel and one for full price fuel. Are they going to make us pay full price for heating and generating electricity?

 

Not quite

 

Somewhere in the last nine pages is the answer

[Paul C]

The 2 tanks idea assumes

 

1) that you have some kind of device which runs on diesel but can't propel the boat, eg diesel cooker, diesel stove, diesel space/water heater, generator

2) that the person filling it up will automatically know which tank to put the red in and which to put the white in

3) that you won't simply siphon some fuel from the red tank and put it into the propulsion one

 

That's me out on point 1) straight away. And even for those boaters who do have a separate item such as generator, what about the proportion of fuel they burn in the main engine which also does stuff like heats water (via calorifier) or charges domestic batteries (via alternator) - they'd still lose out on the proportion of engine running used for these purposes.

 

In any case, there has been no change to the existing rules, HMRC and the government are disinterested in changing it.

[rjasmith]

 

 

Indeed so - and I recall it was Avgas the Bedfords ran on in the Army; which is essentially kerosene with a few chemical additives to give an even leaner burn.

 

 

(snipped)

 

(A very minor correction to the red bit)

 

Avgas is "aviation gasoline" ie petrol. The aviation fuel that is essentially kerosene is "Avtur" or "aviation (gas) turbine" fuel (ie for jet engines or other gas turbine engines).

 

I expect the Bedfords could run on either or a mix of kero and petrol (I assume we are talking about spark ignition engines fitted with a vaporiser after the carburetter?)

 

I have an old Ferguson TED20 tractor which is designed this way to run on Tractor Vaporising Oil (TVO) after warming up on petrol. TVO is unavailable now but can easily be made up by mixing domestic CH kerosene with some petrol.

 

The petrol raises the aromatic hydrocarbon content of the kerosene and therefore the octane rating from about 20 to about 60 which works better in the Ferguson's (modified) Standard Vanguard car engine.

 

Completely of course but I feel better now!

Just to get slightly back on topic a licence for mixing up TVO can be obtained and it is legal to use it in the tractor on the road (conditions apply!)

 

Richard

[Ricco1]

As a matter of interest: those of us who use petrol generators are paying road duty on the fuel. As the petrol is being used to generate electricity only could we not reclaim the tax differences between road fuel and electricity from HMRC?

[ditchcrawler]

As a matter of interest: those of us who use petrol generators are paying road duty on the fuel. As the petrol is being used to generate electricity only could we not reclaim the tax differences between road fuel and electricity from HMRC?

You could try. I dont know if light aircraft get rebated fuel

[furnessvale]

You could try. I dont know if light aircraft get rebated fuel

I wouldn't bother. Apart from the fact that light aircraft joined boaters in being selected for special tax treatment, HMRC have always fiercely resisted any attempts to make any use of petrol rebated.

 

George ex nb Alton retired