"red diesel"

[Naughty Cal]

We usually just declare 60/40 as we have not actually sat down and figured out what our use age is.

 

I suspect it works in our favour though!

[LoneWolf]

 

Charming!

 

I forget your sense of humour fails some times.

 

perhaps it wasn't a good joke

 

btw, a deliberate under declaration would be evasion not avoidance

[Guest]

btw, a deliberate under declaration would be evasion not avoidance

 

Yes - so oft. the terms get confused, guilty as charged.

[tommytelford]

I spoke to one supplier and asked what happened to the record sheets that we fill in when refueling. He said they go into a file and that is where they remain, nobody has inspected their records in 3 years. He just does his return using a summary and pays the necessary to HMRC, their only interest is that his returns and payments are on time.

 

Being practical, the amount involved is so tiny that the revenue are not going to waste resources chasing up boaters and getting involved in what could be a really drawn out argument to assess the true usage for such a paltry amount of tax. I think that the revenue have much bigger fish to fry.

[ditchcrawler]

I spoke to one supplier and asked what happened to the record sheets that we fill in when refueling. He said they go into a file and that is where they remain, nobody has inspected their records in 3 years. He just does his return using a summary and pays the necessary to HMRC, their only interest is that his returns and payments are on time.

 

Being practical, the amount involved is so tiny that the revenue are not going to waste resources chasing up boaters and getting involved in what could be a really drawn out argument to assess the true usage for such a paltry amount of tax. I think that the revenue have much bigger fish to fry.

I have been told that as well which is very worrying as we could all be happily declaring the 60/40 split and the retailer only paying duty on 10%

 

Might well be worth it and not just for the beer. Norbury Wharf Ltd. were reputed to offer the cheapest red diesel on the cut, phoning around a selection of suppliers for best price on each occasion they needed to refill their own tanks.

 

 

 

I think if you go down the cut a bit to Wheaton Aston the garage will be a penny or so less.

Edit Turners.

Edited November 10, 2013 by ditchcrawler

[alan_fincher]

I have been told that as well which is very worrying as we could all be happily declaring the 60/40 split and the retailer only paying duty on 10%

 

Exactly so.

 

Although I'm not certainly accusing any dealers of being unscrupulous, if any were not paying over the extra 50p or so we pay on the percentage of our diesel declared as propulsion, that could represent an awful lot of money. I'm guessing 50p a litre is far more than they are otherwise making on diesel sales?

 

If HMRC are not inspecting even a sample of our declarations, (where they are even asked for!), and comparing them to their returns, the system could easily be open to massive abuse.

 

I hope this not why some are insisting on 60/40!

[Bobbybass]

 

I hope this not why some are insisting on 60/40!

 

They can insist on 60/40 and you can sign the declaration for 60/40...but you are signing in advance.

You are signing for a 'guestimate'. As such..it is not legally binding...it is a guestimate.

 

When you fill your car up..you can't submit details..at that point... of excatly how many MPG you will get as you don't know if you will be on a motorway...or around town. You can only guess....so its not legally binding unless you knowingly falsify your next submission and claim an over-estimate. Even if the next seller insists on 60/40 you can still adjust this at some point with records.

 

As I said before in my post...when I queried this in detail with HMRC they said that if I kept records..I could adjust this next time...to allow for the 'overpay'...(maybe claim 70/30 or 80/20 next time ) ..or simply do what I did at seasons end.

Submit my records and claim a refund...which is what I got.

[Ricco1]

Is there anywhere on, or near the Macclesfield where I can rock up with containers and pay no tax at all, no questions asked as to my edentity etc.?

[Ex- Member]

Is there anywhere on, or near the Macclesfield where I can rock up with containers and pay no tax at all, no questions asked as to my edentity etc.?

 

Some local smaller garages in some areas sell Kerosene, I know many people who just say it's for use in heaters and sign a declaration as such so pay no duty, then drive round the corner and fill their diesel tanks in cars vans etc and of course boats

 

Of course we were doing similar too but legally as we have separate bow tanks for the bubble stove, and that's where we put the fuel of course

[mayalld]

I understand that fuel duty is only payable on fuel used for propulsion. Indeed, I have driven a refrigerated lorry that had two tanks: one for the engine; and one for the refridgeration plant. The latter tank was perfectly legally filled with "red diesel".

 

I gather that on boats with one fuel tank that one can declare how much fuel is used for propulsion and how much for domestic purposes. I intend/hope to run the engine for several hours on most days to move the boat, but this will also heat water in the calorifier, as well as charging the bank of domestic batteries. On days which I don't move it's likely I'll need to run the engine purely to heat water and give electricity, so it's definitely multi-purpose.

 

What I'd like to know is whether there are 'standard' allowances for this and if so, please can you tell me what they are, or where to find them?

 

TIA,

 

Roger

 

As others have said, there is a "standard" split of 60/40 (60% for propulsion) that HMRC suggest.

 

Basically, that amounts to "If you say that 40% of your use is non-propulsion, we will just accept it. If you want to claim more, we might ask you to justify that view"

 

In calculating my split, I make the following assumptions;

 

1) When running the engine whilst stationary to charge batteries, I use 1 litre per hour, this is pure domestic use.

2) When running with fully charged batteries and the calorifier hot, I use 1 litre per hour, this is pure propulsion use.

3) At the start of the day, when cruising with discharged batteries etc, I use 1.5 litres per hour for the first 2 hours of cruising, That means that I have used a litre for domestic and 2 for cruising during that time.

4) The bubble stove takes 0.5 litres per hour.

 

So, my domestic usage in litres works out as;

 

Number of hours stationary running + number of days when I cruised, plus half the humber of hours that I had the stove on.

[nb Innisfree]

 

Some local smaller garages in some areas sell Kerosene, I know many people who just say it's for use in heaters and sign a declaration as such so pay no duty, then drive round the corner and fill their diesel tanks in cars vans etc and of course boats

 

Of course we were doing similar too but legally as we have separate bow tanks for the bubble stove, and that's where we put the fuel of course

Kerosene is paraffin, it will bugger up injection pumps.

[David Schweizer]

Kerosene is paraffin, it will bugger up injection pumps.

 

I think he probably meant Gas Oil. It is virtually impossible to find anywhere these days that sells kerosene or paraffin from a pump.

[Bobbybass]

Kerosene is paraffin, it will bugger up injection pumps.

That...should cut his fuel consumption nicely....

[Ex- Member]

 

I think he probably meant Gas Oil. It is virtually impossible to find anywhere these days that sells kerosene or paraffin from a pump.

 

Yeah it's basically central heating oil it's a Yellow colour, I thought gas oil was Kerosene.

[Grace and Favour]

 

Yeah it's basically central heating oil it's a Yellow colour, I thought gas oil was Kerosene.

Nooo - - (I suggest you don't try it in your boat until it's summer - and you can spen a day or so cleaning out your tanks and pipes, filters, injectors etc)

[David Schweizer]

 

Yeah it's basically central heating oil it's a Yellow colour, I thought gas oil was Kerosene.

 

No Gas Oil is the old red diesel (ie with no Bio fuel and more sulphur) and is still sold in some rural garages but nowadays it will almost certainly be dyed white diesel.

 

Kerosene is basicly the same as paraffin, and is what paraffin is called in America, It used to be sold in rural garages because old tractors used to run on it (I can still smell the distinctive exhaust fumes!!!)

 

Kerosene is sold in the UK for oil fired central heating. Although some people say that diesel can be used for central heating, it is not advisable to use kerosene in a diesel engine.

 

Maybe Tony Brooks will come on shortly with a better informed answer.

Edited November 11, 2013 by David Schweizer

[Ex- Member]

Nooo - - (I suggest you don't try it in your boat until it's summer - and you can spen a day or so cleaning out your tanks and pipes, filters, injectors etc)

 

We don't put it in our engine, we have separate bow tanks for the supply to the Bubble stove. We ran the bubble stove all last year on this Yellow diesel which is mainly used for oil fired central heating. We have the same delivered regularly to our warehouse. We've had loads of the damned stuff stolen as well.

 

I do know people who run their cars and vans from this oil though on a regular basis and have been for years. A certain range rover I know of does over 200 miles a week on it.

[ditchcrawler]

 

We don't put it in our engine, we have separate bow tanks for the supply to the Bubble stove. We ran the bubble stove all last year on this Yellow diesel which is mainly used for oil fired central heating. We have the same delivered regularly to our warehouse. We've had loads of the damned stuff stolen as well.

 

I do know people who run their cars and vans from this oil though on a regular basis and have been for years. A certain range rover I know of does over 200 miles a week on it.

I think you will find that a majority of private motorists who HMRC nick run on heating oil as its easier to get than red.

[OldGoat]

 

We don't put it in our engine, we have separate bow tanks for the supply to the Bubble stove. We ran the bubble stove all last year on this Yellow diesel which is mainly used for oil fired central heating. We have the same delivered regularly to our warehouse. We've had loads of the damned stuff stolen as well.

 

I do know people who run their cars and vans from this oil though on a regular basis and have been for years. A certain range rover I know of does over 200 miles a week on it.

AFAIK 90%+ of domestic heating oil sold is Kerosene (or something very similar as it is a "residual" product. If you had a rambling mansion the it might have used MGO, because kerosene boilers weren't generally made in large sizes. But it's an awful fuel to use; lots of carbon and muck, so it's largely disappeared.

 

I've heard tell of folks running their old bangers on JetA1 (nice, clean, dewatered kerosene) as some jets have their tanks emptied after every flight. Works fine in a BMC1500 or similar ilk - but you do have to add some lubricant to mimic the oils in Diesel fuel.

Ebers run well on kerosene, I've heard.

[Naughty Cal]

I think you will find that a majority of private motorists who HMRC nick run on heating oil as its easier to get than red.

During the winter we get some of our fuel from a motorway service station that sells gas oil (which is white diesel dyed red in this case) It is sold on the commercials pump.

 

We are often pulled up by HMRC who ask why we are using it. Apparently there are lots of locals who just pull up in their cars and stick the gas oil in their tanks.

 

They are happy with our response of heating purposes on our boat but they do check the car details each and every time despite it being a petrol car!

[steamraiser2]

Red diesel is primarily the same as road diesel (DERV) but is dyed. Military diesel is often dyed too, but green. I remember in my oil company days watching the refinery guys tipping the appropriate colour dye into rail tankers as the fuel was loaded. Apart from the colour it was the same stuff.One of the additives commonly used these days is CPPR which alters the temperature that parraffin wax starts dropping out of the fuel and blocking up filters. Once upon a time this was referred to as summer or winter diesel depending if it contained CPPR or not (Cold Pour Point Reduction)

 

Kerosene and heating oils do not contain any pour point additives and can happily block up your filters when the ambient temperatures are too low. Old diesel engines, Lister JPs being a prime example, were not designed to run on modern diesel fuels ,as we know them, but on far lower grade, higher sulphur, fuel.. They will run quite happily on a variety of fuels including black diesel and heating oil. Oh how we miss the acrid smell of burning oil in the morning..not !

[alan_fincher]

Red diesel is primarily the same as road diesel (DERV) but is dyed. Military diesel is often dyed too, but green. I remember in my oil company days watching the refinery guys tipping the appropriate colour dye into rail tankers as the fuel was loaded. Apart from the colour it was the same stuff.

 

Interesting - I wonder when that was. I worked for a longish period on the stock control systems that covered both the refineries and the distribution terminals used by one of the biggest oil giants. That was from about the early 1980s onwards.

 

As such I got deeply involved in things like adding colours to DERV to make "dyed gas oil", or to kerosene or aviation fuel to give dyed paraffin for domestic use.

 

When I was involved it was far more normal that the refineries only distributed the original unmarked fuel to the distribution terminals, and it was there that it got dyed to turn it into what was sold as a different product, usually carrying a lower level of duty.

 

This could happen in at least 3 ways.....

 

1) Dying at it was put into the main storage tanks

2) Only socking the undyed product, but using equipment at the loading gantries for the rad tankers that injected the rights amounts of dye as part of the loading

3) Keeping an old otherwise retired road tanker in the corner used for filling with undyed product, and then chucking in dye. I was told stories of driving it up and down within the terminal, and breaking heavily, before the customs man climbed on top and shone a torch in to see if he thought it was adequately mixed!

 

Back then the "point of bond" was when oil left a distribution terminal, not when it left a refinery, so not just the refineries, but also the terminals and the pipelines, coastal tankers or bulk oil rail trains used to supply them were all under bond, and had to be treated like a bonded warehouse as the fuel went from one to the other. Hence very tight stock-keeping was kept on all the product, and particularly how much of it got dyed, and how, because if the revenue man was getting less tax you had to have the numbers that exactly supported it.

 

I may be wrong, but think that after I ceased to know much about it the "point of bond" effectively got moved back to include just the refineries, which may be the point at which any dyeing of product took place there, rather than at the distribution terminals.

 

I'm sure you all wanted to know that, (not)!

[steamraiser2]

 

Interesting - I wonder when that was. I worked for a longish period on the stock control systems that covered both the refineries and the distribution terminals used by one of the biggest oil giants. That was from about the early 1980s onwards.

 

As such I got deeply involved in things like adding colours to DERV to make "dyed gas oil", or to kerosene or aviation fuel to give dyed paraffin for domestic use.

 

When I was involved it was far more normal that the refineries only distributed the original unmarked fuel to the distribution terminals, and it was there that it got dyed to turn it into what was sold as a different product, usually carrying a lower level of duty.

 

This could happen in at least 3 ways.....

 

1) Dying at it was put into the main storage tanks

2) Only socking the undyed product, but using equipment at the loading gantries for the rad tankers that injected the rights amounts of dye as part of the loading

3) Keeping an old otherwise retired road tanker in the corner used for filling with undyed product, and then chucking in dye. I was told stories of driving it up and down within the terminal, and breaking heavily, before the customs man climbed on top and shone a torch in to see if he thought it was adequately mixed!

 

Back then the "point of bond" was when oil left a distribution terminal, not when it left a refinery, so not just the refineries, but also the terminals and the pipelines, coastal tankers or bulk oil rail trains used to supply them were all under bond, and had to be treated like a bonded warehouse as the fuel went from one to the other. Hence very tight stock-keeping was kept on all the product, and particularly how much of it got dyed, and how, because if the revenue man was getting less tax you had to have the numbers that exactly supported it.

 

I may be wrong, but think that after I ceased to know much about it the "point of bond" effectively got moved back to include just the refineries, which may be the point at which any dyeing of product took place there, rather than at the distribution terminals.

 

I'm sure you all wanted to know that, (not)!

 

It was back back in the 1970s when BP ran the old Llandarcy refinery as well as the Isle of Grain and Grangemouth. It was done at all three sites but I only saw it done directly into rail tankers. They did the same thing with parraffin too, Blue , pink and green was all down to the dye, yet pink always attracted a premium price!

[alan_fincher]

 

It was back back in the 1970s when BP ran the old Llandarcy refinery as well as the Isle of Grain and Grangemouth.

Before my time then, although BP did still have all three of those UK refineries at the start of my oil industry related career. I don't believe I was personally responsible for the closure of any of them, though!

[p6rob]

I make whatever declaration I think the bloke behind the counter will wear. One bloke said 0% was unacceptable, how did you get here?

 

Good point, I was all like!

 

MtB

When my boat was moored at Willington, I had to buy some white diesel from a forecourt as Mercia's tank was dry. I'd paid so much duty on that, I was justifiably able to declare 0% propulsion on the red diesel I bought when we left the marina.

 

Try that if you get asked by a bloke behind the counter again.

 

Rob