"red diesel"

[Ex- Member]

Not sure where the shame comes in since they are offering diesel at fixed low price whilst apparently conforming to local HMR&C requirements.

 

 

There's no such requirement it's simply a guideline, as I stated earlier we claim 80 domestic and 20 propulsion, if any trader insists on 60/40 then they won't get my business, our requirements have nothing to do with the trader, as long as we declare and sign for.

[ditchcrawler]

Sue has aweb page that shows who does not allow self declaration and who does

http://www.noproblem.org.uk/blog/links/diesel_split.htm

[Pembroke]

I don't think HMRC could give a toss about this to be honest and I'm pretty sure they have no intention of enforcing this as it is one of those EU directives that we choose to ignore

 

How can they ever prove if your declared split is correct or not - they simply can't

 

I'd be amazed if anyone has ever been inspected let alone prosecuted for making a false declaration

[bottle]

You may be right but there is always the possibility that they are not worried but it does not matter really, as in the not to distant future all the fuel we buy will be at the full rate.

[alan_fincher]

So no one need declare any ratio greater than 60/40 but if records are kept and you maintain proof you can declare lower ie. 20/80

Errm,

 

There is no requirement on you to keep any records or evidence, whatever percentage you declare is there?

 

You may choose to, but there is no requirement, surely?

 

Only the supplier is obliged to keep records, (of the declaration you are supposed to have made).

 

Increasingly though I'm not asked to sign anything at all, so if HMRC did ask to see the suppliers paperwork about what I was sold, I'm not sure what it might show - certainly not my signature!

[Guest]

You may be right but there is always the possibility that they are not worried but it does not matter really, as in the not to distant future all the fuel we buy will be at the full rate.

Unfortunately, I believe you are correct.

[FadeToScarlet]

Errm,

 

There is no requirement on you to keep any records or evidence, whatever percentage you declare is there?

 

You may choose to, but there is no requirement, surely?

 

Only the supplier is obliged to keep records, (of the declaration you are supposed to have made).

 

Increasingly though I'm not asked to sign anything at all, so if HMRC did ask to see the suppliers paperwork about what I was sold, I'm not sure what it might show - certainly not my signature!

There is if you make a 0% declaration- though what the "appropriate documentation" would be, I have no idea!

[Ex- Member]

There is if you make a 0% declaration- though what the "appropriate documentation" would be, I have no idea!

 

We make 0% declaration on our bow tanks, there's no requirement to keep any records, I have checked all this out a couple of years ago.

[MtB]

I make whatever declaration I think the bloke behind the counter will wear. One bloke said 0% was unacceptable, how did you get here?

 

Good point, I was all like!

 

MtB

[alan_fincher]

Good point, I was all like!

 

????

 

I'm not sure your attempts at learning "Starryspeak" are yet 100% successful!

[Daiboy]

This topic has had me trying to work out what percentage to declare. When I am cruising my fuel is being used for propulsion, obvious, but also charging batteries, domestic. How on earth can one quantify how much fuel is being used for what?

 

Is it that you check your charger every now and then and until the batteries are fully charged you claim say 50/50 when fully charged then the claim must be 100/0. My engine does not heat any domestic water.

 

On another point, do we pay VAT on coal or logs? Or is VAT different to fuel revenue?

[MtB]

 

????

 

I'm not sure your attempts at learning "Starryspeak" are yet 100% successful!

 

She learnified it off ME...

 

 

MtB

This topic has had me trying to work out what percentage to declare. When I am cruising my fuel is being used for propulsion, obvious, but also charging batteries, domestic. How on earth can one quantify how much fuel is being used for what?

 

Is it that you check your charger every now and then and until the batteries are fully charged you claim say 50/50 when fully charged then the claim must be 100/0. My engine does not heat any domestic water.

 

On another point, do we pay VAT on coal or logs? Or is VAT different to fuel revenue?

 

No.

 

The point is that HMRC can't be arsed with fecking about with this, they have bigger fish to fry. They are just paying lip service to the EEC directive. Bottom line is claim whatever you feel comfortable with. No-one will be checking.

 

MtB

Edited November 9, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

On another point, do we pay VAT on coal or logs? Or is VAT different to fuel revenue?

 

It would seem that VAT is charged on solid fuel and logs to be used as fuel at the reduced rate, (I have learnt something!).

 

7.1.4 Types of solid fuel

The reduced rate applies to the following examples of solid fuels provided they are supplied for a qualifying use and are held out for sale solely as fuel, for example, supplied under a recognised trade description such as singles, 'coalite' or 'phurnacite':

• barbecue fuels
• briquettes of straw and waste or other combustible material
• charcoal derived from any source (but not if you hold it out for sale as artists’ drawing charcoal)
• coal (including anthracite and lignite)
• coal briquettes
• coal dust
• coke
• firelighters - such as wood sticks, impregnated wood products, manufactured items, jelly or semi-solid fire-starters
• firewood, including off-cuts, chips, shavings, scrap or damaged wood and compressed or agglutinated sawdust
• peat blocks, sods or briquettes
• pulverised coal
• smokeless fuel
• solid metaldehyde (solid meths), and
• wood logs.

We will accept that you are selling coke if the solid fuel is a light porous substance of the residue of coal, lignite or peat. It may go under any of these brand names: Coalite, Thermabrite, Coalite Nuts, Beacon Beans, Sunbrite Small Nuts or Blazeglow (this is not an exhaustive list).

 

 

Fuel duty is different to VAT.

 

For Red Diesel used in canal boats, fuel duty is added first, (at the higher rate for propulsion, and at a heavily rebated rate for "non propulsion"), but then lower rate, (5%) VAT is added on top of both the fuel cost, and that duty.

 

So you pay one tax on another - 5% VAT on the duty component as well as the fuel component.

[Ex- Member]

I make whatever declaration I think the bloke behind the counter will wear. One bloke said 0% was unacceptable, how did you get here?

 

 

Our bow tanks feed only the Bubble stove, so domestic only. I could just say that though as no one has ever bothered to check They are dedicated to the stove though, honestly! And the fact they're in the Bow 50 odd feet from the engine could be another clue

[Daiboy]

Cheers Mike.

[MyLady]

Please note, I'm thinking aloud here, not presenting a matured arguement...

 

I think a way to simplify estimates is to convert HP to kW (1 = 0.735), at least that is readily comparable to battery power (W=AxV).

 

The first question is how many HP? Our engine is rated at 35HP, but of course that is full power, and with the throttle wide open we'd be breaking the canal speed limit! How to turn that into cruising power? The best I can do is to take numbers from the car...

 

The car has a computrised display that shows instantaneous MPG: foot-to-the-boards in first I get about 10 MPG, cruising on the level in 5th I get anything up to 140 MPG - the engine is supposed to give 100 HP. Of course the car situation is complicated by having 5 forward gears, and the times that I'm cruising at a steady speed are rare - I get nearly 60MPG on average. However a ratio of 10:1 seems a reasonable estimate to compare with canal cruising.

 

Accordingly take average propulsion as 1/10th full power: that gives 3.5 HP = 2.57 kW, cruising for 4 hours in a day (CCers do it slowly) that makes 10.28kWhrs - let's call that 10 since this is an approximation. The question now is how much hot water and electricity I will use? (That's simplified by having no solar/ wind generation - it all comes from the engine). Add up all the power I use

and tha answer is a lemon: I just don't know, but it gives me something specific to try to measure/estimate.

 

At the moment, all I know is that my laptop takes 1.5 A at 100 - 240 V: 150 - 360 W to give 65 W at 20 V! The inverter is probably more efficient - say 70% - giving something like 40 amps at the battery, or half a kWhr if it's in use for an hour a day (you can see why I want a 12 V charger - 1 lot of inefficiency instead of 2) - please check my maths, I did those sums in my head. 5 hours gives a quarter of the power for propulsion! Plus the fridge, plus the lights. plus the radio, plus I don't know what (or should that be watt?)

 

Not to mention hot water. That sum should be easy, except I don't know the capacity of the calorifier, or the temperature rise...

 

Off the cuff, 50/50 seems not unreasonable: the 60/40 modified by the power to go at 3 MPH in still water, rather than pushing against a tidal stream.

 

I can collect more data when we actually take delivery, but does that seem reasonable so far?

 

Roger

[Midnight Rider]

I make whatever declaration I think the bloke behind the counter will wear. One bloke said 0% was unacceptable, how did you get here?

 

 

Not so. You of course have paid the propulsion rate for the diesel in your tank. What you are buying is for your future use.

[Mac of Cygnet]

I keep a 20L can of diesel for use when I run low in my (smallish) tank. The attitude to filling this has varied from "I can't fill that - it could be taken away and used anywhere", through "0% in the can, declare a % in the tank", to looking me in the eye and "that was all into cans wasn't it - no duty payable". No, I didn;t have to sign anything.

 

But what leads people to believe it will all be at the full rate before very long?

[bottle]

A briefing from from IWA:

 

https://www.waterways.org.uk/news_campaigns/campaigns/briefing_notes/briefing_note_red_diesel

[nb Innisfree]

I found it easier to fit an hour counter to the gearbox linkage, we reckon on 1lt per hour when cruising so dividing engine running hours by gearbox/prop running hours hours gives us an honest and realistic split.

 

ETA: Interestingly when we did a marathon cruise in the summer the split using this method resulted in approx 60/40.

Edited November 10, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[by'eck]

 

The 'shame' comes from encouraging boaters to under-declare - OUTRAGEOUS don't you think? (Rhetorical kwestion )

 

Norbury eh? I haven't been up that way for a couple of years. Might go soon and combine with a few pints of Banks's Mild in the pub not far opposite... YERM!

 

MtB

 

Might well be worth it and not just for the beer. Norbury Wharf Ltd. were reputed to offer the cheapest red diesel on the cut, phoning around a selection of suppliers for best price on each occasion they needed to refill their own tanks.

 

I don't think HMRC could give a toss about this to be honest and I'm pretty sure they have no intention of enforcing this as it is one of those EU directives that we choose to ignore

 

How can they ever prove if your declared split is correct or not - they simply can't

 

I'd be amazed if anyone has ever been inspected let alone prosecuted for making a false declaration

 

That's my view as well.

 

Reedley marina's owner was apparently told directly by local HMR&C that as long as they received propulsion tax on 10% of volume they were happy hence their adopted fixed price policy.

[LoneWolf]

Whenever this topic pops up, it surprises me that people are still getting it wrong in how they present the declaration.

 

It is propulsion/domestic and the 60/40 is just a guide line that,HMRC said that if that is what is declared then they would not investigate but if any other declaration was made they retained the right to ask for proof of said use.

 

So no one need declare any ratio greater than 60/40 but if records are kept and you maintain proof you can declare lower ie. 20/80

 

...

 

No, HMRC did not say that. This is what they say:

 

4.3 How do I work out the proportion of fuel used for propulsion?

 

We recognise that the declaration made by you will be an estimate but you must make every effort to ensure it is as accurate a reflection of your usage as possible.

 

Analysis by both the industry and HMRC suggests that a split of 60 per cent for propulsion and 40 per cent for other use probably reflects most people’s fuel use and it is therefore likely that many users will declare such an apportionment. This will make it easier for suppliers (RDCOs) to work out the additional duty and VAT. However, where you know that your propulsion use may be more or less than the above apportionment split or a craft clearly has no non-propulsion fuel use, then you must declare your actual intended usage.

 

 

Funny how people only take in the bits they want to hear sometimes innit

 

 

The point is that HMRC can't be arsed with fecking about with this, they have bigger fish to fry. They are just paying lip service to the EEC directive. Bottom line is claim whatever you feel comfortable with. No-one will be checking.

 

MtB

True. Best advice to the OP is give em a bit, not too much, and don't worry about it

[Guest]

True. Best advice to the OP is give em a bit, not too much, and don't worry about it

 

Could that not be construed as tax avoidance??

[LoneWolf]

 

Could that not be construed as tax avoidance??

 

only if you're an idiot and didn't read the rest of my post

[Guest]

 

only if you're an idiot and didn't read the rest of my post

 

Charming!

 

I forget your sense of humour fails some times.