Leaving heat on board over winter

[gazza]

a lot of nonsense has been posted about tube heaters versus lamps.

comparing the two is daft in the extreme.

the surface area of a tube heater is much greater than a lamp, the steel housing will conduct and radiate heat much more effectivly than a glass lamp.

 

we fitted 2 x 120w tube heaters in main cabin and 2 x 180w in front cabin of a 27' elysian, they work very well, so much so that when left on 24/7 my wife has complained its too hot!!

 

do not forget they are often used in greenhouses and toilet blocks to keep tmp above freezing, not to heat to sub tropical temperatures.

 

be very careful of leaving fan heaters unattended, my dad had one on a timer on his dc30 on the broads, while he was in the bar oulton holiday village, heater came on, fan packed in allowing plastic case to get very hot and begin to melt.

after this he went to oil filled radiators.

 

i am noy keen on leaving any heater unatended, but if you are happy to take risk oil filled rads or tube heaters are way forward.

Edited December 13, 2012 by gazza

[Keeping Up]

... be very careful of leaving fan heaters unattended, my dad had one on a timer on his dc30 on the broads, while he was in the bar oulton holiday village, heater came on, fan packed in allowing plastic case to get very hot and begin to melt...

 

I think they all have over-temperature sensors now, which operate as soon as the fan slows down or stops. They do work too, long before the case gets hot.

[gazza]

new ones may have, how many old ones without over temp protection are kicking about that could be pressed into service? oil filled rad is WAY better in all aspects IMHO

[Keeping Up]

The big advantage of a fan heater on a narrowboat is that it blows the hot air down the length of the boat. I'd say it's far better to have a fan heater and check that it includes an over-temperature cutout, and a falling-over cutout, and doesn't say that it mustn't be left unattended.

 

But each to their own, we'll probably continue to disagree until the cows come home (or at least until it's warm enough not to need a heater)

[DaveC]

Could you not attached an Ecofan to an oil filled radiator ???

 

Dave (ducks)

[PaulG]

We have done the usual : fuelled her up, drained the water down , left cupboard doors and taps open, drained the shower and removed the head, even taken that last bit of water out from the bottom of the toilet - apparently this often gets forgotten then if it did freeze it cracks the `bog` had the webasto serviced and the heating system antifreezed, the engine is serviced and antifreezed.

The boat is left on shore power so the batteries are topped up, and we normally leave an oil filled delongi on timer but not sure if its a heavy user on lecky, so this year we were thinking of buying

 

WHITE TUBE HEATER 80 Watts 2ft LONG c/w CABLE, PLUG & BRACKETS IP55 from amazon

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/paborrill/greenhouseheater.jpg

 

any thoughts

My boat is on a shoreline in a marina. I have two 500W convection heaters, similar to

 

this one

 

The built in thermostat is useless for frost protection - it will waste a small fortune in 'leccy (don't ask how I know this!)

 

When the boat is unattended I use plug-in digital thermostats set to 3 deg C. This set up cost me about £10 in power last winter.

[STIG]

Apart from the fact I do not use heaters, I would recommend checking the policy and if required changing the insurance company - then use heaters if that is your thing. I think it may be only one company and possibly they may have removed the clause this year.

 

If you are running it off the shoreline via a combi-type inverter for goodness sake make sure it is set with the inverter very definitely OFF.

 

 

 

 

I have never had "thousands of pounds" of damage done when the plumbing freezes - and that was with all copper pipework. The danger is much less now we have plastic. Of course if you do not run the tank dry and it floods the boat you may have rather more than usual expense.

 

Your paragraph 3 does not give the other alternative, which is to make sure your insurance company allows the use of such heaters.

 

Hi Tony,

If you are running it off the shoreline via a combi-type inverter for goodness sake make sure it is set with the inverter very definitely OFF.

 

That sounds like a profound statement, would you care to explain it a little more

[Darren72]

My boat is on a shoreline in a marina. I have two 500W convection heaters, similar to

 

this one

 

The built in thermostat is useless for frost protection - it will waste a small fortune in 'leccy (don't ask how I know this!)

 

When the boat is unattended I use plug-in digital thermostats set to 3 deg C. This set up cost me about £10 in power last winter.

 

My boat cost £5 a week to keep warm and charged thru the shore line. £10 a winter!!!

[Robbo]

Hi Tony,

If you are running it off the shoreline via a combi-type inverter for goodness sake make sure it is set with the inverter very definitely OFF.

 

That sounds like a profound statement, would you care to explain it a little more

 

Inverter will take over if the shore power goes, causing flat batteries.

[Naughty Cal]

My boat cost £5 a week to keep warm and charged thru the shore line. £10 a winter!!!

 

We reckon our heaters cost us around £14 extra per winter to keep running 24/7. This year that will be a bit more because we have added an extra one but even if it is another £14 it is a small price to pay to keep the boat warm and protected from the cold.

 

£14 is the cost of our electric cards which is why I used that figure. In an average year we use about three. With the extra heater this year we expect we may use an extra one.

[gaz_88]

We reckon our heaters cost us around £14 extra per winter to keep running 24/7. This year that will be a bit more because we have added an extra one but even if it is another £14 it is a small price to pay to keep the boat warm and protected from the cold.

 

£14 is the cost of our electric cards which is why I used that figure. In an average year we use about three. With the extra heater this year we expect we may use an extra one.

 

Which heaters do you use?

[Midnight]

The boat is unattended in a marina on shore power, batteries floating.

 

Mikuni MX40 left powered feeding three radiators & calorifier coil.

 

Thermostat/timer in frost stat mode fixed at 5°C and not subject to timer.

 

When working in normal room temp mode it seems to trigger on about 2° below target temperature, so I'm guessing around 3°C.

 

Question is will the Mikuni be cycling on for too short a period than is good for it in present conditions, north west England. Experience with similar arrangement would be appreciated.

 

 

I have used a similar set up for years with an MX60, but I got rid of the stat (TP5) as it was the major cause of coking up. After a lot of problems early on I realised the purge mode took longer than the temperature to drop a degree, which switched the unit back on before the purge was completed.

 

Since I changed the stat for a Webasto type programmable time switch there have been very, very few problems. The CH is currently set up to run twice a day for an hour which uses about 12 ltrs per week (£9 @ Boat Club diesel rates).

[johnmck]

Hi.

 

Have I done wrong?

 

I have "Winterised" the boat as per the O.P. But, have left no heating on! The boat is well ventilated I hope! I may well be wrong and often am, but adding occasional heat causes condensation. This is not what you want over winter is it?

 

My rationalle is that a well ventilated boat will survive sub zero temperatures if the common sense precautions with water systems have been made? Or am I wrong!

 

John.

[Tuscan]

Nervous about frost stat so have bought oil filled rad I intend to leave on minimum setting

[Midnight]

Hi.

 

Have I done wrong?

 

I have "Winterised" the boat as per the O.P. But, have left no heating on! The boat is well ventilated I hope! I may well be wrong and often am, but adding occasional heat causes condensation. This is not what you want over winter is it?

 

My rationalle is that a well ventilated boat will survive sub zero temperatures if the common sense precautions with water systems have been made? Or am I wrong!

 

John.

 

 

Sound thinking to me but we visit our boat quite often and don't want the hassle of 'winterising' after each visit. I'm am quite amazed at the number of people I know who don't take any winter precautions and seem to get away with it. The worst thing that happened to us was one winter when the MX60 became a bit unrelianble and the seals in the shower valve froze.

[stuart]

I don't have any shore power, so simple ensure all the water is drained down and turned off as per the original post.

[AndrewIC]

Energy is used to produce light - you do not get 100w of heat.

 

A traditional incandescent build is a few percent efficient at best: almost all the input power comes out as heat, and very little as visible light. What does come out at light will interact with whatever it hits, and (assuming you keep the boat curtains closed!) end up as heat as well.

 

That said, having all the curtains closed and lots of bright lights may prompt speculation as to the nature of one's exotic house plants...

[ditchcrawler]

A traditional incandescent build is a few percent efficient at best: almost all the input power comes out as heat, and very little as visible light. What does come out at light will interact with whatever it hits, and (assuming you keep the boat curtains closed!) end up as heat as well.

 

That said, having all the curtains closed and lots of bright lights may prompt speculation as to the nature of one's exotic house plants...

That is why there is no power saving using low energy lamp in your house, you just spend more on heating unless you use larg lights in bright sunshine

[jonathanA]

That is why there is no power saving using low energy lamp in your house, you just spend more on heating unless you use larg lights in bright sunshine

 

I think you might have been smoking the exotic house plant leaves.

 

I don't think I've ever relied on sitting under a 100w bulb to keep warm ....

[Keeping Up]

I think you might have been smoking the exotic house plant leaves.

 

I don't think I've ever relied on sitting under a 100w bulb to keep warm ....

 

 

No but if you've sat in a room which has heating controlled by a thermostat, underneath a 100w bulb, that heating will be supplying 100w less power to maintain the specified temperature.

[jonathanA]

No but if you've sat in a room which has heating controlled by a thermostat, underneath a 100w bulb, that heating will be supplying 100w less power to maintain the specified temperature.

 

so compared to most domestic forms of heating the heat from a 100w bulb is insignificant, probably too small to measure in any meaningful way so I just think to say don't bother fitting energy saving bulbs becuase they'll put up your heating costs is at best misleading... furthermore you would need to consider the costs of the a unit of electric compared to say the equivalnet unit cost of Gas or oil or whatever fuel is used for heating, which IS much cheaper than electric (or we would all have electric central heating) so the argument becomes thin, to say the least....

 

tungsten filaments bulbs only convert 5% of their energy into light, so the assertion that a 100w bulb produces a lot of heat is CORRECT

[Keeping Up]

so compared to most domestic forms of heating the heat from a 100w bulb is insignificant, probably too small to measure in any meaningful way so I just think to say don't bother fitting energy saving bulbs becuase they'll put up your heating costs is at best misleading... furthermore you would need to consider the costs of the a unit of electric compared to say the equivalnet unit cost of Gas or oil or whatever fuel is used for heating, which IS much cheaper than electric (or we would all have electric central heating) so the argument becomes thin, to say the least....

 

tungsten filaments bulbs only convert 5% of their energy into light, so the assertion that a 100w bulb produces a lot of heat is CORRECT

 

People are rather saying that the net effect of fitting low energy bulbs is zero because the total amount of energy consumed remains the same. However I do agree with you, that gas heating is so much cheaper than electric heating that you will probably see a small overall reduction in your total energy cost. Unless you have a gas central heating system which is controlled by the thermostat in the one room but which supplies heat to the entire house without additional rad stats - as many people do have - because then the loss of 100 watts of electrical power (or whatever, it may easily be 250 watts or possibly more) into the room where the wall stat is positioned, may cause you to burn a great deal more gas which will be heating up the radiators in the rest of your house.

[by'eck]

I have used a similar set up for years with an MX60, but I got rid of the stat (TP5) as it was the major cause of coking up. After a lot of problems early on I realised the purge mode took longer than the temperature to drop a degree, which switched the unit back on before the purge was completed.

 

Since I changed the stat for a Webasto type programmable time switch there have been very, very few problems. The CH is currently set up to run twice a day for an hour which uses about 12 ltrs per week (£9 @ Boat Club diesel rates).

 

Thanks for reply.

 

Have just returned to boat and actually heard my Mikuni MX40 driven by Siemens RDJ10 controller fire up as I arrived. It ran for around 30 minutes bringing the inside of boat up to 5.5°C before switching off, whilst outside temp was around -1°C. It also left me with some warm water.

 

I guess it would have cut in around 3°C. It seems that my well insulated boat doesn't allow excessive cycling and the timer/stat has enough on/off temperature spread to run the Mikuni for a reasonable amount of time even in frost stat mode.

 

Anyway everything was fine inside so I'm happy to trust that setup especially as the Mikuni will fire up at any time its needed.

[Midnight]

Thanks for reply.

 

Have just returned to boat and actually heard my Mikuni MX40 driven by Siemens RDJ10 controller fire up as I arrived. It ran for around 30 minutes bringing the inside of boat up to 5.5°C before switching off, whilst outside temp was around -1°C. It also left me with some warm water.

 

I guess it would have cut in around 3°C. It seems that my well insulated boat doesn't allow excessive cycling and the timer/stat has enough on/off temperature spread to run the Mikuni for a reasonable amount of time even in frost stat mode.

 

Anyway everything was fine inside so I'm happy to trust that setup especially as the Mikuni will fire up at any time its needed.

 

Thanks for the info - I'll investigate the Siemens RDJ10 controller - the downside of the time switch is that the CH switches on even when the temperature is well above freezing. so is proving costly - I even thought about having an outside stat/switch wired to the timer but if the RDJ10 can cope with about 5mins of purge without switching back on it would be a cheaper option.