Hi there question on mooring Avon river

[Jacko11]

I get my narrow boat April, i wanted to continuous cruise from keynsham to bath as i work four on four off bath city center

but i am told the avon trust ( newbridge river)is different it says i MUST have a permanent mooring? Getting the permanent mooring? does it mean i can moor on that river for 48 hours no charge? 

[magpie patrick]

Welcome to the forum, but please note you cannot continuously cruise between Keynsham and Bath, it isn't far enough. It's also very difficult to find somewhere to moor on that length that isn't one of the following - occupied, private, or involves mooring to a tree (on private land) with a yomp to get anywhere. 

[Rob-M]

And it floods quite a bit.

[GUMPY]

41 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

And it floods quite a bit.

Quite a lot would be a better description.

[Ewan123]

5 hours ago, Jacko11 said:

I get my narrow boat April, i wanted to continuous cruise from keynsham to bath as i work four on four off bath city center

but i am told the avon trust ( newbridge river)is different it says i MUST have a permanent mooring? Getting the permanent mooring? does it mean i can moor on that river for 48 hours no charge? 

I'm not vey familiar with those waterways, but either myself or @Jacko11 is confused. 

 

I can't find a Newbridge River (though there is a place called Newbridge on the River Avon on the western edge of Bath).

 

The only 'avon trusts' in those parts are the Kennet & Avon Canal Trust or Bristol Rivers Trust who don't have anything to do with licences or moorings (the River Avon there is part of the Kennet & Avon, managed by the Canal & River Trust (CRT) same as most others). There is an Avon Navigation Trust who do licences, but that's a different Avon entirely (Warwickshire). 

 

As Magpie Patrick said, you won't get away with only shuffling between Bath and Keynsham without a mooring on a CRT licence (guidance here: Continuous cruising questions answered | Canal & River Trust).

Moorings do exist, but it's a high-demand area - basically for the same reasons that you want to be there. Be prepared to pay and/or wait a long time for one to be available.

 

Also yes, flooding - I've driven past it a couple of times this winter to see the fields either side essentially being part of the same river.

[Jacko11]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I am totally new to boating i got the boat April

So i was told by CRT that , that river is Avon Navigation Trust? (The River Avon from bath to Bristol)

So looked at there page and yes you MUST have a home mooring it says then you can continually cruise ? if I'm right? 

 

So say i got the river license and didnt have home mooring that means i cannot go on there at all??

 

If i do get home mooring i can then move up and down that river mooring for 48 hours (if i want)?

Edited February 24 by Jacko11

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

So i was told by CRT that , that river is Avon Navigation Trust? (The River Avon from bath to Bristol)

The Avon Navigation Trust is for the Avon between Stratford on Avon and Tewkesbury. Not the Avon through Keynsham. There are lots of river Avons. The person at CRT who told you this confused the two.

https://www.avonnavigationtrust.org/about-us/faq/

[Jacko11]

Thanks Jen, so can i continuously cruise from bath to Bristol then ? on CRT CC license? mooring for 14 nights different places? thats the river only license? Another lady said this yesterday also she said they have this confused

[Rob-M]

You will struggle to find moorings between Bath and Bristol even if you managed to get away with CCing over such a short distance.  Plus for quite a few months of the year the river will be in a state of flood and even if the boat survives you may not be able to get off on to public land.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think you may need to read up on the C&RT requirements - you not only need to move every 14 days but you do have to achieve a certain mileage.

 

Here is a review from the Ombudsman after a couple had their licence revoked for not moving (far) enough.

 

Similar area but not on the river.

 

 

Case No 966 – complaint about the issue of a restricted six month licence for a boat without a home mooring

Mr and Mrs D are liveaboard boaters, based in Gloucester on the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal (G&S). As they do not have a home mooring they are subject to the Trust’s continuous cruising requirements. The Trust was not satisfied with the boat’s cruising pattern and decided only to allow them, on renewal of the licence, to have a restricted six month licence. In making their complaint, Mr and Mrs D said that the Trust restriction did not take into account the fact that the G&S is only 16 miles long, and that to cruise further meant taking their boat onto the River Severn, which they regarded as potentially hazardous. They also said that the Trust had not provided a full explanation for the restriction, that there was no clear guidance about what a “neighbourhood” or “locality” was, that the tone of the Trust’s correspondence was threatening, and that they were being discriminated against due to their age (i.e. that they are still working and that it is difficult to get the time to cruise further afield).

The Trust’s evidence showed that the majority of the cruising had been within a 15 km range, although there were two periods when the boat was sighted outside this range, which were at the end of April 2016 and in the middle of June 2016. The Trust said that the 15km cruising range did not meet the requirement at the time which was that the cruising range should be not less than 15-20km over the period of the licence. While it accepted that there two periods when this range was exceeded, it did not meet the requirement that the stated range should be met or exceeded “over the period of the licence”.

As to whether allowances should be made for boaters on the G&S because of the geographic limitations, the Trust said that while it did accept that there were some difficulties in cruising away from the canal, it did not accept that the difficulties were of such a nature that it was prepared to reduce the maximum cruising range. That is a policy matter for the Trust which I cannot influence.

The Trust’s key point was that no matter how frequently a boat moved, it could not remain on the G&S for the licence period and be compliant. It said that compliance could be achieved only if the boat left the G&S. It added that in this case the time spent away from the G&S was not sufficient to achieve compliance.

I concluded that the Trust did recognise the difficulties of navigating beyond the extremes of the canal, in particular at the southern end, where exit into the Severn estuary would require a pilot. However, while it also accepted that a northbound exit might be difficult in certain conditions, it did not accept that navigation up the River Severn was not possible.

I was satisfied that the Trust had, either before or during the complaint process, provided an explanation of why the complainants had been issued with a restricted licence, and also what a neighbourhood or locality was.

On the issue of whether the Trust had discriminated against the complainants because of their age, and the fact that they work, I did not conclude that it had. Under the Equality Act 2010 age is a protected characteristic. However, I could not see that the Trust could be regarded as having discriminated against the complainants on the basis of their age. The complainants said that the discrimination was based on the fact that they still worked, but being employed is not a protected characteristic. I said that given that the Equality Act prohibited discrimination on the basis of age (apart from any exceptions which must be justified) there could be no link between age and being employed, adding that a person above the state pension age, for example, but still in employment, could equally make the same argument.

Having considered all aspects of the complaint, I did not uphold it. The complainants said that they had a widebeam boat and that it was difficult to find permanent moorings, but I could not regard that as a reason for the Trust to disapply its continuous cruising guidance.

 

 

C&RTs guidance from the Enforcement Manager ;

 

London Enforcement Manager Simon Cadek sent an email to a boater who was warned that they were on course for failing their six month restricted licence, telling them what they would need to do to pass.

“When we are looking at boat movements we are looking for characteristics of bona fide navigation, these fall roughly into four categories:

· Range: by range we mean the furthest points a boat has travelled on the network, not merely the total distance travelled. While the BW act does not stipulate what that distance is the Trust has previously said that anyone travelling a range of less than say 20 miles (32km) would struggle to satisfy the Trust that they are engaged in bona fide navigation and that normally we would expect a greater range.

. For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.


· Overstaying: we look to see how often boats overstay, either the 14 day limit on the main length of the canal, or shorter periods where local signage dictates, for example short stay visitor moorings.

While we are flexible with the occasional overstay from most boaters due to breakdown, illness or other emergencies, we will look at the overall pattern balanced with range and movement pattern in order to form a view.

Overstay reminders are issued when a boat is seen in the same area for more than 14 days. While we are unable to say how far you need to travel each time you move, we would advise that you normally travel further than a few km each time.

This will prevent you from getting reminders and depending on the length of other trips you make and how many times you turn back on yourself, should increase your overall range over the course of your licence.

· Movement: Continuous Cruiser Licences are intended for bona fide (genuine) navigation around the network, rather than for a boat to remain in one mooring spot, place neighbourhood or area.

We would expect boats on these licences to move around the network such that they don’t gravitate back to favoured areas too often i.e. in a way that it’s clear to us that they’re living in a small area of the waterway.

The basic principle of this is that these licences are not intended for living in an area and if it looks like a boat is habitually returning to a particular part of the waterway then this would not generally satisfy the Trust.

Within an acceptable range we’d expect a genuine movement, so for example it would not satisfy the Trust if a boat went on a 60 mile trip during the course of say two weeks, then returned to cruise in an area of say 5 miles the remainder of the time (figures are examples only).

Generally speaking, the smaller the range the less we’d expect to see boats back at the same locations. Of course people need to turn around and they’re perfectly free to re-visit places they have been to before, it’s living in a small area on this kind of licence that would cause a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9far

Edited February 24 by Alan de Enfield

[Jacko11]

Yes i obviously intend to move on every 14 days and abide by the distance rules of course...

how can i find where you can and cant wild moor? is there a map with designated area's ?

 

I work in bath you see four on and four off so on my four off i will be taking the boat places...

Edited February 24 by Jacko11

[Jen-in-Wellies]

33 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

Thanks Jen, so can i continuously cruise from bath to Bristol then ? on CRT CC license? mooring for 14 nights different places? thats the river only license? Another lady said this yesterday also she said they have this confused

You will likely need a canal and river license go get your cruising total anywhere near enough to keep CRT happy. You'll also want to be able to get off the river when it is at risk of flooding. Note that the Kennet and Avon canal is also crowded at the western end, with lots of other people trying to live in the area on the cheap. At the Bristol end, the floating harbour is not CRT and is expensive to moor in for a visit, restricting your options at that end.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

Yes i obviously intend to move on every 14 days and abide by the distance rules of course...

how can i find where you can and cant wild moor? is there a map with designated area's ?

 

I work in bath you see four on and four off so on my four off i will be taking the boat places...

Days or weeks?

 

If days, "four off" means two days out and two days back, which won't get you very far...

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

how can i find where you can and cant wild moor? is there a map with designated area's ?

 

The difference between a River and a Canal is the on a River the River banks are all owned by the land-owner (who also owns half of the width of the River. They own the mooring rights and can refuse to let anyone moor, or. can charge you for mooring - there is no such thing as 'wild mooring' on a river.

With the canals, the Navigation Authority owns the canal side and your '14 day mooring' is included in your licence fee

 

As has been stated, mooring on a river is potentially very dangerous and there could be days or weeks when you cannot even get on (or off) the boat, let alone move it.

[Jacko11]

Thanks Jen and guys for the help?

I am looking at permanent mooring seeing what options there are, love where i am i been here for Two years living in motorhome by river

is there anywhere you can see on a map online where you can and cannot moor?

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Days or weeks?

 

If days, "four off" means two days out and two days back, which won't get you very far...

i work four days on and four days off?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

is there anywhere you can see on a map online where you can and cannot moor?

 

Not for (most) rivers - some will have pontoons that have a limited 48 hours stay so no use to you.

None that I know of have 14 day mooring allowances.

 

 

On the river Trent.

 

Ties up to a tree, comes back and the river level has risen, boat has sunk - all because it rained a couple of days previously 100 miles away.

 

Rivers are not like lay-bys for a campervan !

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

Thanks Jen and guys for the help?

I am looking at permanent mooring seeing what options there are, love where i am i been here for Two years living in motorhome by river

is there anywhere you can see on a map online where you can and cannot moor?

i work four days on and four days off?

The problem is that if you want to pretty much stay in one place (e.g. the same one near Bath) for four days and then go on a trip out and back for four days, you're not going to meet the CART requirements for "continuous cruising".

 

And you can't shuttle between two places four days apart, alternating with four days moored at each either (ABABAB...) since that's against the rules.

 

So you'd need to find at least three places, each of which you can stay for four days at a time, but spread over a fair stretch of the K&A -- which means the furthest one will be quite a long way from Bath. Good luck with doing that, it'll be a challenge since moorings are pretty popular down there.

 

Or you could do what a lot of boats allegedly do on the Western K&A which is to largely ignore the CC rules and try not to get caught... 😉 

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, Jacko11 said:

I am looking at permanent mooring

 

 

You and 5,000 others all with the same idea! 

 

Basically they are rare as a rare thing which is why so many are notionally CCing in the area. 

 

Also, rivers don't generally have a towpath so 'wild mooring' might work overnight while you stay on the boat to cook and sleep for 12 hours, but not so you can get off the boat and catch a bus to work. 

 

 

 

[GUMPY]

Let me see🤔

Canal boat on a river that floods and few decent moorings.

Motorhome with occasional stopovers on MH sites.

Can't make up my mind which would be better😲

[David Mack]

Jacko, putting it bluntly, what you are proposing can't be done, and if you try it will likely end in tears.

A Rivers Only licence allows you to use the Avon between Hanham Lock and Pulteney Bridge in Bath, a distance of 11.5 miles. No way can you legitimately CC in that distance (even if you could find the moorings). To travel any further east you would need a canals and rivers licence which would allow you to continue along the Kennet and Avon canal east from Bath.

To go west of Hanham would require you to travel into Bristol Harbour, for which there is a separate charge payable to Bristol Harbour Commissioners/Bristol City Council. (That does also open up the route via the Avon Gorge and Severn estuary to Sharpness, after which you are back on CRT waters).

Permanent moorings on the river are few. But if you want one you would be best getting out there and looking, talking to people on boats etc. Available moorings get snapped up quickly and aren't generally advertised. Don't say you intend to liveaboard - just that you will spend quite a lot of time on the boat, as almost all permanent moorings are officially non residential.  Moorings where you could pitch up and leave the boat for 4 days, let alone 14, are probably non existent.

 

[booke23]

6 hours ago, Jacko11 said:

is there anywhere you can see on a map online where you can and cannot moor?

 

Basically on that river section, all the banks are privately owned by someone. There are a few 48hr pontoons but they always seem to be full of CMers (continuous moorers - boats illegally taking the P***, usually unlicensed with no index number/name).

 

You might get away with a night of wild mooring on a bank or tree, but not much longer. I've heard of boaters who have tried to moor at a seemingly out of the way mooring spot, being rudely awakened by fishermen who's club have angling rights on that particular stretch.....or by a landowner who does not want boats on his bank. Plus it floods with the merest hint of rain in winter. 

 

If you do want to cc in that area you'll have to use the K&A. Luckily it runs close to the railway line so you may have public transport options as you cruise, or you could do what a lot of other boaters in the area do and bridge hop with a car.

[zenataomm]

Nine times OP has been warned of the flooding aspect and the danger involved.
He continues to ask about maps showing where he can or can not moor on the river.
Odd behaviour, similar to the child who not hearing the answer he wants from Mummy, just goes and asks Daddy.

[ditchcrawler]

Last time I was that way 2014 

 

[booke23]

39 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Nine times OP has been warned of the flooding aspect and the danger involved.
He continues to ask about maps showing where he can or can not moor on the river.
Odd behaviour, similar to the child who not hearing the answer he wants from Mummy, just goes and asks Daddy.

 

The OP is new to all this.....perhaps we should be more patient with him.

[dmr]

On a sunny day the Bristol Avon is a lovely river but when its floods its not a place to be.  There are a few "official" mooring spots but these will usually be squatted by Continuous cruisers from the canal section who have visited the river to get their distance up or to avoid getting spotted as the river is (or was) not patrolled as well as the canal. We have done the Avon many times and have only twice got a mooring spot and one of those was hanging off the end of a mooring. I believe its much much busier of late.

There are several spots for wild mooring but they will likely be taken. Its all local knowledge, there can be no map because its often spots where you can "get away with it" rather than are allowed to moor. Some boaters will take the piss so a good spot then goes away because the land owner has had enough of boats. I would not leave a boat unattended on a river like the Avon for more than a few hours, certainly not for four days.

If you are 4 days on and 4 off you are not a full time liveaboard so a marina just  might well let you live there.

10 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

The OP is new to all this.....perhaps we should be more patient with him.

 

Yes, we should, we have seen many new members who have had the unique of idea of living on the water and have not realised that everybody else has the same idea and has already got the best spots, and what's even harder to adjust too is that www and youtube research just does not work here, you have to get your feet on the ground, or even better on the water, to understand it.