HELP and advice on ex hire boat purchase, convert to liveaboard?

[MrsM]

@Birdie2601 I expect you might feel a bit disheartened reading the above posts. To summarise (others will correct me if I'm wrong), if you want to be a continual cruiser you need to convince the CRT that you are able/intend to engage in bona fide navigation. Having a boat that is too long for the canal it is on will make that impossible, and needing to be in a particular area due to schooling and health issues all point to you needing to take a home mooring. It seems sensible for you to factor the cost and practicality of this into your plans. Lots for you to think about. Please don't take our comments as negativity but the forum has seen situations like yours before. It's never nice to burst someone's bubble 😔. Marianne 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, MrsM said:

Please don't take our comments as negativity but the forum has seen situations like yours before

 

and it is far from unknown for it to end in tears when CaRT start taking legal action. The situation not being helped by a relatively new association that use unfortunate boater's predicament to further very partial aims to the detriment of the said boaters. Please, if things go wrong be very careful about who you seek help and take advice from.

[BilgePump]

To the OP welcome to the forum. I do urge you to let your situation dictate the boat and not a desire for as much space as possible. It may well save a huge amount of expense and mental anguish down the line.

The problems I see are those already mentioned by previous posters

 

A 66' boat will offer little extra space inside over a 57' or 60' if they are creatively configured inside. Putting an over 62' boat on the Lancy canal will involve large initial expense and probably put off some prospective buyers should you come to sell. The crane cost isn't the only part as they normally seem to just supply driver and possibly mate and will expect a banks(wo)man and rope(wo)men, normally supplied by marina, boatyard or owner depending on location of lift.

 

Continuous cruising on the canal whilst wanting to be at the Preston end would involve repeatedly going up and down beyond Glasson, just to be perceived as doing the absolute bare minimum range. Being more than twenty miles from where you really want to be and having to then commute costs a lot in time and money.

 

I don't think it would be possible for CaRT to argue that a 66' boat isn't suitable for the Lancaster canal as it could navigate the full length and off their waters onto the Ribble or Douglas. However, CaRT leisure moorings on the Lancy are not ridiculously expensive. There is a 40' mooring near Preston going for £1350pa.

 

40' is probably a bit small for liveaboard with adult guests for a few weeks at a time but let's use it as a thought exercise. Within that length, short bow, a trad stern and small modern boxed engine, you could get a cabin of 30'. Within that you could manage (stepping down from stern) a 4' wide double bed, a small toilet and shower room), a minimalist galley, an L shaped or Pullman dinette that can convert to a double bed (L shaped doesn't need to be converted if only being used by one person). Then it would be possible to have an open space with stove, screen on the wall and folding table for work, camp chairs and beds to make it flexible for visitors. My parents had a 60' extended holiday boat with only one fixed double so as adults when visiting my sister and self plus friends would sleep on a dinette, camp bed or floor on the boat. It just seemed pointless to have the boat set up for multiple occupancy by more than two people all the time. A nominal leisure mooring will be proportionally cheaper than one for a longer boat or if committed to CCing will be a little easier to move single handed, licence cheaper, painting, blacking cheaper etc. If you go up to a 60' boat, you get get more front deck, more space inside for sofa/futon, a bigger galley back deck or cruiser stern or whatever according to desires. Upping to 66' with all the associated expense really seems to offer very little additional benefit.

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, MrsM said:

@Birdie2601 I expect you might feel a bit disheartened reading the above posts. To summarise (others will correct me if I'm wrong), if you want to be a continual cruiser you need to convince the CRT that you are able/intend to engage in bona fide navigation. Having a boat that is too long for the canal it is on will make that impossible, and needing to be in a particular area due to schooling and health issues all point to you needing to take a home mooring. It seems sensible for you to factor the cost and practicality of this into your plans. Lots for you to think about. Please don't take our comments as negativity but the forum has seen situations like yours before. It's never nice to burst someone's bubble 😔. Marianne 

 

Seconded.

 

There have been people who didn't come here for advice and just bought a boat without knowing all that's been outlined so far. Then they find CRT taking enforcement action against them and they find this forum and rage about at how unfair it all is when they had no idea about all these rules before buying the boat. It's a fair point too but that's how life can be sometimes.

 

This is what people are trying to steer Birdie2601 away from experiencing.

 

 

 

[MrsM]

OP, in a nutshell your life will be very much easier if you secure a home mooring in the area you need for the school run and your health needs. It needn't be forever. But it will give you time to get your boat sorted/reconfigured to meet your lifestyle. You can always go on long trips during the school holidays and there will be nothing to stop you CCing in the future when your circumstances change. Good luck x

[Birdie2601]

15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Starting off with the idea that continuous cruising means moving the boat once a month really isn't a good sign.

Thank you for your comment, Arthur Marshall, you are right I am starting off with the idea to be moored nearby in an area that I choose, much like every other CC'er that does not have a disability or health condition ie. equal rights  it also means that I can get use to everything, complete a stage of my life that has 'more ties' to location, set up my remote business and plan out what I am going to do and where I am going next......maybe that is not a 'good sign' to you, or some others, but to me it is really positive and does not mean that I only intend to stay in locations for one month, rather I would like long term to cruise the entire system and even go over to the French waterways...so quite far afield if I can be lucky enough to do so.  Meanwhile I will cruise along in line with CRT bylaws and often will get an itchy tiller no doubt if I tried to stay put for even a week, but if I need too from time to time then I can and when I do so it will always involve careful consideration of how my usage affects my neighbours and others.  After all, it is a shared space and a community that I wish to be involved in and that only comes with due consideration for everyone, so I do get your point. 

2 hours ago, MrsM said:

OP, in a nutshell your life will be very much easier if you secure a home mooring in the area you need for the school run and your health needs. It needn't be forever. But it will give you time to get your boat sorted/reconfigured to meet your lifestyle. You can always go on long trips during the school holidays and there will be nothing to stop you CCing in the future when your circumstances change. Good luck x

Yes MrsM I had considered this as my first port of call however nearby to me the options are not available, luckily the Lancaster Canal, being 'cut off' in a way has plenty of space for a CC'er like myself at the southern end for miles and miles both ways - so not in anyones way at all  Also and I only need to CC for a short term and then will change my plan to what next suits including transporting to a Midlands canal to be nearer family connections.  I will however keep my eyes peeled for end of garden moorings and such like and potentially opt for a leisure mooring for the winter months.  Thank you for the good luck and to you too x

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Birdie2601 said:

Thank you for your comment, Arthur Marshall, you are right I am starting off with the idea to be moored nearby in an area that I choose, much like every other CC'er that does not have a disability or health condition ie. equal rights

 

 

Just because other boaters are boating non-compliantly it does not make it ok for you to do the same.

 

Yes you will almost certainly get away with breaching the rules on mooring but for those of us who pay £thousands for home moorings because that it what the rules say we should do it can feel very unfair seeing others ignoring the requirement, and paying nothing to moor wherever they like for as long as they like. 

 

[Birdie2601]

4 hours ago, BilgePump said:

To the OP welcome to the forum. I do urge you to let your situation dictate the boat and not a desire for as much space as possible. It may well save a huge amount of expense and mental anguish down the line.

The problems I see are those already mentioned by previous posters

 

A 66' boat will offer little extra space inside over a 57' or 60' if they are creatively configured inside. Putting an over 62' boat on the Lancy canal will involve large initial expense and probably put off some prospective buyers should you come to sell. The crane cost isn't the only part as they normally seem to just supply driver and possibly mate and will expect a banks(wo)man and rope(wo)men, normally supplied by marina, boatyard or owner depending on location of lift.

 

Continuous cruising on the canal whilst wanting to be at the Preston end would involve repeatedly going up and down beyond Glasson, just to be perceived as doing the absolute bare minimum range. Being more than twenty miles from where you really want to be and having to then commute costs a lot in time and money.

 

I don't think it would be possible for CaRT to argue that a 66' boat isn't suitable for the Lancaster canal as it could navigate the full length and off their waters onto the Ribble or Douglas. However, CaRT leisure moorings on the Lancy are not ridiculously expensive. There is a 40' mooring near Preston going for £1350pa.

 

40' is probably a bit small for liveaboard with adult guests for a few weeks at a time but let's use it as a thought exercise. Within that length, short bow, a trad stern and small modern boxed engine, you could get a cabin of 30'. Within that you could manage (stepping down from stern) a 4' wide double bed, a small toilet and shower room), a minimalist galley, an L shaped or Pullman dinette that can convert to a double bed (L shaped doesn't need to be converted if only being used by one person). Then it would be possible to have an open space with stove, screen on the wall and folding table for work, camp chairs and beds to make it flexible for visitors. My parents had a 60' extended holiday boat with only one fixed double so as adults when visiting my sister and self plus friends would sleep on a dinette, camp bed or floor on the boat. It just seemed pointless to have the boat set up for multiple occupancy by more than two people all the time. A nominal leisure mooring will be proportionally cheaper than one for a longer boat or if committed to CCing will be a little easier to move single handed, licence cheaper, painting, blacking cheaper etc. If you go up to a 60' boat, you get get more front deck, more space inside for sofa/futon, a bigger galley back deck or cruiser stern or whatever according to desires. Upping to 66' with all the associated expense really seems to offer very little additional benefit.

 

Thank you so much for your comments and I do agree that usable floor space and flexible bedding options are all within my considerations.  I had looked at moorings and often can't see anything bigger than 50ft and those are not nearby hence I went down the CC route initially until I can see other options come up.  I do think on reflection and looking at various forum responses regarding layout and seeing a couple of boats at 62ft and 60ft that I could come down to this size and then in future when it's 'just me and the dog' then certainly I can envisage going smaller.  I agree with all of your points and find it really interesting and exciting to see how I can maximise the use of the space I buy and how to make things multifunctional...I have a keen eye for design and have an udergraduate Design Degree...no great shakes, just that I really look forward to using my creative skills to maximise my off grid sustainable lifesyle once I move onto water....providing that I can find a boat.  And maybe the right layout can even come down to 58 who knows, I think my design considerations also include things like noise and having a sense of privacy so this factors into size too.  I really appreciated your comments on lay out styles and how your family all camped out and I think this is doable for us and the comments on cost and maintenance make sense too...more food for thought - its so nice to have a reply that speaks to my issues and is open and solution focused - thanks!

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Just because other boaters are boating non-compliantly it does not make it ok for you to do the same.

 

Yes you will almost certainly get away with breaching the rules on mooring but for those of us who pay £thousands for home moorings because that it what the rules say we should do it can feel very unfair seeing others ignoring the requirement, and paying nothing to moor wherever they like for as long as they like. 

 

Unfortunately you are taking my answer to 'an extreme' and none of what you say is my intention,rather I have been looking for moorings and was unable to find one so CC'ing is my plan B of sorts, for a while anyway.  I don't mind paying for things and I think it's important that those who can do help contribute so that others in harder circumstances, get a chance to get back on their feet.  Personally I practice non-judgmental awareness and I don't know why someone would flout the rules or break laws, like given that we all are innately made of the same spirit and energy - what is it that has happened in someones life that has led them to isolating themselves in this way?  It does not seem like a pleasant way to live especially if so much judgement is faced - it makes me think of the way travelers, gypsy and nomads are ostracized when in reality the lands, waters and production of even food has been taken away from the peoples and profited on for the riches of the few - so who are the real immoral folk and why do we all point down instead of pointing up?  Anyway just my tuppence, I am here to live and let live  and my comments are not intended to promote law breaking or support harm to others in anyway, just that the discussion needs to be opened up to include far of what is really going on in society.  I also support everyone paying their mooring licence to live their life that way too, and no doubt as the housing crisis grows, (which again is not the fault of those being badly affected by it), then no doubt the CRT will become more stringent on the rules and I will always do my best to comply.

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Seconded.

 

There have been people who didn't come here for advice and just bought a boat without knowing all that's been outlined so far. Then they find CRT taking enforcement action against them and they find this forum and rage about at how unfair it all is when they had no idea about all these rules before buying the boat. It's a fair point too but that's how life can be sometimes.

 

This is what people are trying to steer Birdie2601 away from experiencing.

 

 

 

I agree that it's good to research the options for life on the canals which is why I am here asking important questions - I am guilty of doing a lot of research and like to know what challenges I may be facing so that I can preempt them of sorts. Maybe those others that found themselves in hot water did research too and did not heed the advice or maybe they did none, we just do not know?  I do feel however that some responses include ill informed judgements that fall outside of being respectful and courteous but then I think am I perhaps being affected by the negativity because some of it is not what I would prefer to hear.....perhaps it is a mixture of both    I do know that whatever my choices they will be flexible enough to warrant any discussions with CRT and for moving along as needed.  My hope was to become part of a friendly community and I feel that just because some people choose to pay for home moorings or can actually locate home moorings (so far I can not) does not give them the right to judge CC'ers - the CRT is there to do that job and it would no doubt create a more positive vibe within the canals and riversway if we all appreciate difference and diversity.  One person having the funds to pay for home moorings does not give them the right to judge another person who has to CC up and down for example.....as long as the rules of moving along as needed is followed then there is plenty of waterways in the system to accommodate for many types of users, imho.  For me it is about mutual respect, keeping noise pollution down, keeping the countryside clean, leaving no footprint (or waterprint lol), respecting your neighbors, utilising the local canalways businesses and supporting local - there is far more to what makes someone a good user of the waterways than just the fact that they pay for mooring in my humble book anyway.  And when I am on the waterways I am sure I will encounter bad experiences too - life just seems to have them there awaiting us, so humour will be very important and I have enjoyed seeing that side of the forum too.  I expect it just takes folk a while to understand the motives of another and that we can all get defensive until we see that care is being taken.  Best wishes and positive vibes, B

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

The Lancaster Canal is 42 miles long from Preston to Tewitfield. In order to demonstrate to CRT that you are a genuine CCer (with a boat that is too long to go further afield) you will need to travel the full length of the canal a few times a year, and staying at a number of different places along the way. You aren't allowed to just switch between a couple of places - you probably need to visit (and have been sighted by CRT at) a couple of other places before returning to your first location.

I doubt CRT will accept regular one month stays on an ongoing basis, particularly from a new licence holder. The concession which allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days if reasonable in the circumstances is intended to accommodate being unable to move the boat due to illness/injury, breakdown or unplanned canal closure. It would normally be expected that when the circumstance giving rise to the extended stay had ended you would revert to maximum 14 day stays. And CRT will be more willing to accommodate extended stays by an existing boater who becomes ill or injured than by one who cannot achieve the movement requirements on day one.

Thank you David Mack, I will check into the maximum 14 days/1 month rule on stays and as mentioned previously it is my intention to get used to the boat and CC'ing and start my online business etc and then I will be more free to move along as needed by the CRT, as with regards the school run this is a short time period and again options on this will change as family life changes, as it does for all.  I don't feel it would be fair for any organisation to discriminate against anyone with diversity and difference as we have laws that protect against discrimination so to expect everyone to start their life on the canals from the same 'able bodied' and 'mental bodied' starting point is not necessarily fair and just in my humble opinion, but I also understand that an experienced narrowboat/waterways dweller will understand that their are more challenges for those folk to overcome - no doubt there will be a middle ground and a compromise to be made as I venture onto the water and I am open and honest that no doubt mistakes will be made....but none that will harm anyone else and after all how we best learn is from our mistakes I do see your point on travelling the Lancaster canal frequently and after a life spent upkeeping a home and being confined to bricks and mortar I relish the opportunity to travel, I hope the CRT employees I meet along the way are nice folk and will advise me if I need to do something different or move along and I will always gladly do so and I will also be keeping my eyes peeled for a suitable mooring as that would be ideal too! For now I am keeping open minded and appreciate the comments including the non positive aspects of my plan, after all I am here to problem solve.  Initially it seems that coming down to a boat of 62 will be a compromise that might work as then I can utilise the Ribble Link, The Rufford Branch of the L&L and CC further.....although I would loose my valuable work from home/guest space.  Anyway too much of my life feels to have been shared lol!  I do appreciate the help and advice and will keep pondering to get the right solution! Thank you David Mack.

[Mike Hurley]

Venetian marina have a 2006 62 foot for sale at 45k, built by Heron if you still fancy this size.

[Arthur Marshall]

Hmmm. It certainly looks like you're getting your self-justifications ready for some deliberately non-compliant cruising, plenty of buzzwords in there. The trouble is that just because you can't find a way to act legally in order to get what you want, doesn't actually give you the right to break the rules. These aren't "challenges", they're the law.

So just because you can't find a mooring exactly where you want one, doesn't give you the right to hang about pretending to be a continuous cruiser. Waffling about diversity, discrimination, able bodied or whatever is, sadly, irrelevant. It's easy enough to find a home mooring, same as its easy enough to buy a house - somewhere. You're just not entitled to one precisely where you want it at a price you've decided you want to pay. Tough. This is the real world, not a paradise for the wishful thinking.

You are perfectly within your rights to do anything you want. And CRT is perfectly able to make your life hell if you break their rules consistently, take you to court (if they can be bothered - they don't need to), refuse you a licence and take your boat off you.

So I'd think hard about this move. Living on boats is not always easy, it's expensive, and there are rules to follow which are being enforced more and more. Starting off with the intention of being non-compliant is not sensible.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Birdie2601 said:

I will check into the maximum 14 days/1 month rule on stays

There is no one month rule. As a CCer you are only permitted to stay up to 14 days in one place.

 

The context to all this is that when promoting what became the 1995 Act, BW proposed that all boaters should have a home mooring. Had that been enacted there would be no CCing, and all boaters would have to have, and pay for, a permanent mooring. On the one hand that would encourage commercial companies to construct and operate offline marinas, but on the other hand it would make boat ownership more costly (than CCing) and could have prevented those of lower means from owning a boat at all. The CCer concession was intended to accommodate the then small number of boaters who cruised widely and for much of the year, such folk necessarily not being constrained by work, education, health or other ties to one area. Thus the original CCers were mostly retired, of independent means, or earning a living in occupations which (in a pre-internet age) could be done remotely - writers, artists and the like. The CC option was not intended to provide for cheap housing for those tied to a fixed workplace or educational establishment. And it was expected that CCers would move over a wide area, making short stays in any one place with a maximum stay of 14 days. However the requirements were so poorly worded that they ended up permitting a succession of 14 day stays separated only by minimum distances travelled, and, nearly 30 years on from the Act,  concentrations of mostly liveaboard CCers in urban areas where other housing has become increasingly unaffordable. And some of those liveaboard CCers, who moved afloat long after the 95 Act requirements were introduced, now display a sense of entitlement to a lifestyle which was never intended to be available to them. And that in turn creates resentment from those who think that some CCers are exploiting a loophole, not paying their way, and adversely impacting on those whose boating is in compliance with the intentions of the 1995 Act.

[Lady M]

It just doesn't sound to me as if there is any intention of bona fide navigation here.

 

More practically, has the OP actually done any boating at all?  Even without locks to operate, boating can be quite physically strenuous.  If they are not fit enough to move the boat every few days, how will they cope with full toilet cassettes, bags of shopping on muddy towpaths, pulling ropes and hammering in stakes, etc.

[MrsM]

I think @David Mack summed up the situation perfectly. I've got a campervan now which I pay a licence (road tax) for, and yet I don't expect to be able to park up and stay wherever I want in it. I accept there are rules I must adhere to. The big difference being that I know these rules will be enforced and I will be penalised if I break them. 

Edited to add: I'm not implying this is what the OP is planning to do as she has clearly stated she is actively seeking a mooring. Just a comment on the general air of entitlement displayed by some boaters.

Edited April 29 by MrsM

[IanD]

17 hours ago, David Mack said:

There is no one month rule. As a CCer you are only permitted to stay up to 14 days in one place.

 

The context to all this is that when promoting what became the 1995 Act, BW proposed that all boaters should have a home mooring. Had that been enacted there would be no CCing, and all boaters would have to have, and pay for, a permanent mooring. On the one hand that would encourage commercial companies to construct and operate offline marinas, but on the other hand it would make boat ownership more costly (than CCing) and could have prevented those of lower means from owning a boat at all. The CCer concession was intended to accommodate the then small number of boaters who cruised widely and for much of the year, such folk necessarily not being constrained by work, education, health or other ties to one area. Thus the original CCers were mostly retired, of independent means, or earning a living in occupations which (in a pre-internet age) could be done remotely - writers, artists and the like. The CC option was not intended to provide for cheap housing for those tied to a fixed workplace or educational establishment. And it was expected that CCers would move over a wide area, making short stays in any one place with a maximum stay of 14 days. However the requirements were so poorly worded that they ended up permitting a succession of 14 day stays separated only by minimum distances travelled, and, nearly 30 years on from the Act,  concentrations of mostly liveaboard CCers in urban areas where other housing has become increasingly unaffordable. And some of those liveaboard CCers, who moved afloat long after the 95 Act requirements were introduced, now display a sense of entitlement to a lifestyle which was never intended to be available to them. And that in turn creates resentment from those who think that some CCers are exploiting a loophole, not paying their way, and adversely impacting on those whose boating is in compliance with the intentions of the 1995 Act.

This post should be starred and pinned so it can be easily found (and quoted) every time this subject comes up.

 

Moderators?

[dmr]

I half remember reading somewhere that CRT have said that the Lancaster is not suitable for CC'ing ?????

The OP really should not factor in the Ribble link as a means of increasing a limited cruising range. Its a tidal crossing suitable for experienced boaters in good boats with good bigger engines. It has limited passages that have to be booked well in advance and might be cancelled at short notice due to bad weather. If things go wrong it might be months before the OP could return to the Lancaster.

 

CRT are actually pretty good at granting a limited cruising range in response to genuine medical needs but I suspect will then require the boater to play their part and stick to those relaxed rule, and they can be quite harsh with those who continue to break the rules. Having a chat with those nice CRT people on the towpath is a thing of the past, rule enforcement is now ultimately controlled by people in the office who are obliged to apply the rules fairly and equally.

[BilgePump]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I half remember reading somewhere that CRT have said that the Lancaster is not suitable for CC'ing ?????

The OP really should not factor in the Ribble link as a means of increasing a limited cruising range. Its a tidal crossing suitable for experienced boaters in good boats with good bigger engines. It has limited passages that have to be booked well in advance and might be cancelled at short notice due to bad weather. If things go wrong it might be months before the OP could return to the Lancaster.

 

CRT are actually pretty good at granting a limited cruising range in response to genuine medical needs but I suspect will then require the boater to play their part and stick to those relaxed rule, and they can be quite harsh with those who continue to break the rules. Having a chat with those nice CRT people on the towpath is a thing of the past, rule enforcement is now ultimately controlled by people in the office who are obliged to apply the rules fairly and equally.

About five years ago, pre covid, met an older chap on the Macc who had this kind of arrangement. He had to go up and down between Bosley and Whaley (about 20 miles) and play by the mooring rules but wasn't expected to go down the locks to get in the distance. Lovely guy and stuck to CaRT's requests.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

I half remember reading somewhere that CRT have said that the Lancaster is not suitable for CC'ing ?????

 

It's more that the "CCers" on the Lancaster all seem to only shuffle between Garstang and Bilsborrow or only hang around Lancaster and Hest Bank.

 

We did about 9 months on there without any problems, but we did go Preston - Glasson - Tewitfield quite a few times.

 

The trouble with long bits of the Lancaster for CCing is access - a lot of it is a long way from civilization, so there's only about a dozen places you can sensibly get on public transport, and there's not that many sensible parking spots near the canal.

 

 

 

 

You need to like walking a long way or really enjoy stocking the boat up and staying right out in the sticks for a week or more.

[Birdie2601]

On 28/04/2024 at 17:48, Arthur Marshall said:

Hmmm. It certainly looks like you're getting your self-justifications ready for some deliberately non-compliant cruising, plenty of buzzwords in there. The trouble is that just because you can't find a way to act legally in order to get what you want, doesn't actually give you the right to break the rules. These aren't "challenges", they're the law.

So just because you can't find a mooring exactly where you want one, doesn't give you the right to hang about pretending to be a continuous cruiser. Waffling about diversity, discrimination, able bodied or whatever is, sadly, irrelevant. It's easy enough to find a home mooring, same as its easy enough to buy a house - somewhere. You're just not entitled to one precisely where you want it at a price you've decided you want to pay. Tough. This is the real world, not a paradise for the wishful thinking.

You are perfectly within your rights to do anything you want. And CRT is perfectly able to make your life hell if you break their rules consistently, take you to court (if they can be bothered - they don't need to), refuse you a licence and take your boat off you.

So I'd think hard about this move. Living on boats is not always easy, it's expensive, and there are rules to follow which are being enforced more and more. Starting off with the intention of being non-compliant is not sensible.

Hi Arthur, just to say I wasn't getting my self justifications as you term them ready.  My process was just asking for advice and then I received both good and negative comments back and I responded 'on the fly' rather than anticipating breaking any rules and prepping myself in advance of my deliberate non-compliant action.  Also my words regarding equality and diversity are not merely buzz words but deeply felt values that I hold, even if they are buzz words to others.  I never intended to create a discussion which implied that I was going to flagrantly disreagard CaRT rules, actually I can see that I was just naive to the true meaning and guidelines for CC'ing.  Since having some of this feedback from the Forum I have revised my initial thoughts and both intend to get a 62" or below so that I can CC further distances but also to buy a mooring for use half the week so that I can do longer CC'ing but also have a 'port' to utilise, giving me the best of both worlds and importantly that gives me a number of canals to navigate as well as a mooring.  This option allows me to benefit from the best of both CC'ing to go further when I need too but also to have a mooring whilst my needs to be more local call for it.  I agree with you wholly that starting off with the intention of being non-compliant is not how I wish to start my journey hence asking questions in the forum and revising my plan based upon the evidence of experienced boaters.  I now have a much better idea of the law and bona fide cruising and I suppose I would just like forum respondents to be aware that when communicating back to 'OP's it can be quite intimidating on the other side to be 'accused' in a way rather than being merely 'mistaken' and that how we interact with each other can come from a place of assuming that actually the OP is here to be sensible and get advice on being compliant/how others anticipate the CaRT or BSC /any other boating topics and that they are here to think hard and do homework around that to make sure they do the right thing.  Forum respondents can pass on all of their good wisdom and rules explanation without including a tone of derision or judging the OP, whom ever they are,  in a way that there is no evidence for as it can feel like 'bullying' when you open up your message responses from the forum.  I noticed this happened to many new OP's now and that leads to a feeling of unsettlement within forums whereby people stop being able to use the Forum or discuss issues / request advice freely.  Maybe some people will say I am being sensitive, but the point is that yes, I would hope to see a change in how forum members respond and that responses can kinder and more respectful and in a way that we would like our own questions answered if we were new to the scene etc   This respose from me is directed in a general manner as I might not have time to respond to everyones quotes.  I understand that everyone can get passionate and people can be defensive when other new OP's ask 'offensive or non-compliant questions, but let's have an approach that gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and that they can be responded to with caution and care rather than derision - also colluding along with other forum members within the coversation can be see as 'ganging up' and it being a clique which can feel ostrascicing to an OP, well it felt a bit like that to me anyway.  And overall I'd like to be part of forums that practised kindness and support towards each other as part of each persons responses, (at least until their is concrete evidence) so that the Forum is a safe space for new narrowboaters and we continue to protect the legacy of boating communities aiming on harmony.  The rest of the advice and help that I received was very good and either way I accept that if people need to vent, then that is going to happen too, just that maybe they can understand that that negative energy from their typed in words does impact the 'innocent' person on the other end.  I hope to continue in the form meanwhile and thanks again,  ' “You meet Noah after the flood, you think, That brave, faith-filled, visionary man. You meet him before and you're like, What a nut job. Perspective and timing matter. Sometimes you have to accept that you might not be able to see the truth from here.”
― Courtney C. Stevens, The June Boys

[MrsM]

What a thoughtful response, @Birdie2601. Replies can seem harsh at times, especially to a newbie, but they usually come from a place of frustration, especially when faced with similar issues time and time again, and rarely carry ill-intent. I only had my boat for four years (and am still heartbroken about having to sell it). As a leisure boater I had a home mooring on the Trent but also cruised extensively for 5-6 months of the year and managed to explore much of the network in that time. It was maddening to come across boaters who flaunted the rules - overstaying on precious short-term visitor moorings, water points and lock landings for example - and this definitely impacted on my enjoyment of boating at times. It is understandable that forum members want to proactively discourage behaviours they interpret as potentially non-compliant and disruptive to others. As you embark on your boating life you will see just how kind, knowledgeable and supportive members can be - particularly if you need technical advice, which you undoubtedly will from time to time. Please don't be put off from contributing or posting here. It helps to develop a bit of a thick skin and not take things too personally if possible. What you have already learnt in the short time you have been here, such as the realities of CCing and boat lengths, will already positively improve your experience of boating and your future life on water. I look forward to following your journey. 

Edited May 1 by MrsM

[Birdie2601]

Thank you MrsM, I am grateful for the advice received and can't wait to get started - there are a lot of rules and procedures and they are there to make it the best for us all, I expect mistakes will be made along the way, I expect those, but in the interim I expect to be able to help and hopefully be helped  no doubt technical questions will come up!  I am happy for you that you loved boating for 4 years and can hear that you hold a heaviness about selling your boat - I hope my adventures lead me to similar fond experiences. I appreciate your kind message back, thank you.  Maybe a love heart was too much lol, a smiley face or an up arrow seems to be the main response code ha ha  

[MrsM]

2 minutes ago, Birdie2601 said:

Maybe a love heart was too much lol, a smiley face or an up arrow seems to be the main response code ha ha  

Nothing wrong with a love-heart! Yes I'd have kept my boat forever if possible but we couldn't justify the expense when we weren't going to be able to make good use of it any more. The happiest days of my life were out boating. I'm sure you will love it. 

[Arthur Marshall]

Having a mooring, if you want to stay around an area, is a really good idea, even if you don't use it much. While it very slightly alters your rights over the 14 day rule, in effect it makrs no difference and it allows you to return to places on a short cruise without problems with CRT. And if you need to work on the boat, or leave it for a bit, it's somewhere safe. You just need to make sure that where your mooring is, your landlord is ok (either officially or unofficially) with you permanently living on the boat - as is often pointed out here, there's no legal security on a mooring. One bloke in Manchester is currently being kicked off after 15 years following a takeover. Best way to find out, if it's not a registered residential mooring, is to ask other boaters.

I'm sorry if my referring to "buzzwords" offended. As an old hippie from the '60s, I often see those words now being used to claim "rights" or beneficial treatment without any acceptance of the rather heavier responsibilities that comes with the lifestyle. One thing the boating life isn't, is off-grid, or separate from the rest of society.

Edited May 1 by Arthur Marshall

[mrsmelly]

3 hours ago, Birdie2601 said:

Thank you MrsM, I am grateful for the advice received and can't wait to get started - there are a lot of rules and procedures and they are there to make it the best for us all, I expect mistakes will be made along the way, I expect those, but in the interim I expect to be able to help and hopefully be helped  no doubt technical questions will come up!  I am happy for you that you loved boating for 4 years and can hear that you hold a heaviness about selling your boat - I hope my adventures lead me to similar fond experiences. I appreciate your kind message back, thank you.  Maybe a love heart was too much lol, a smiley face or an up arrow seems to be the main response code ha ha  

To be honest what I loved most in my thirty odd years of living aboard and moving around was the very very few rules re boating. All very easy to comply with. Buy and sell at the drop of a hat with zero paperwork required and no solicitor involvement. A basic MOT only every four years. Register the boat usually Cart very easily and after paying cheap insurance license the boat and that's it. I didn't get any grief from BW or Cart only help. The very few cruising/mooring rules are easy to both understand and comply with. Enjoy.

[Birdie2601]

Thank you everyone, happy cruising, or land living or whatever floats your boat lol it is all about community spirit wherever we are in life  

[LadyG]

I dont know anything about yellow cards or one month rules, in my mind anyone who buys  a cc licence should be capable of navigating or expect to do so fairly soon.

There will be plenty of boaters who apply for help via the UK benefit system, but i think think they might be living in a marina, and should have a Residentisl Mooring.

Sorry i havent read all the long posts by OP. Philosophy is barely relevant on this forum, which is nearly .always about boating

Edited May 2 by LadyG