HELP and advice on ex hire boat purchase, convert to liveaboard?

[Birdie2601]

Hello, just trying to do some homework on the following boat builder/fit out:  file:///C:/Users/bridi/Downloads/AB51-Frouds-Bridge-Brokerage-Brochure-v1-Water-Impulse%20(2).pdf Looking to covert it to a liveaboard and wondered would that be a good investment?  Do you for any tips and advice - basically I want anything that leaves me a bit of budget so under 40K would be perfect (this is higher), will need to transport to Lancaster canal, Preston end so will need to factor in say 3K extra for transportation, its a 66ft boat but should be fine in one day and I have to include seperate crane hire at each end so I figured 1-500-2000 for transport and then 400-500 inc VAT at each end for cranes?  Am I in the right ballpark?  I would redecorate/refit and fit stove etc to make it homely and am wondering if continuous cruising would I be better with compost toilets and do I also need solar costs to factor?  It's a lot and I feel a tad overwhelmed.  Would appreciate any advice and tips, thank you ever so much, B

AB51-Frouds-Bridge-Brokerage-Brochure-v1-Water-Impulse (2).pdf

[Paul C]

There's bound to be a separate thread on composting toilets somewhere, best look there for opinions on that aspect.

 

Solar panels - are you a competent DIYer or would you be having them professionally installed? It affects the cost greatly.

 

Also, don't underestimate the likely cost of fitting a stove (I am assuming you mean a solid fuel/multifuel one).

 

Regards the boat, I can't say specifically but 68ft hireboats tend to have more beds/rooms than a similar sized private boat, unless its a luxury one. So you'll probably be having a mini-bonfire and/or some significant remodelling of the interior.

[Tony Brooks]

Two things I noticed.

1. It only has 6mm hull sides and if they are pitted by a bit over 2mm the boat may be uninsurable fully comprehensive, although you could get third party. I fell that in 1998 a 15mm baseplate would be a bit unusual, so wonder if it has been over plated.

 

2. The Alde 2928 is obsolescent, if not obsolete, so spares may be difficult to source. They also tend to be rather gas hungry.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with a hydraulic drive, but they are less efficient that a conventions gearbox and shaft drive so will burn more fuel, depending upon the type of hydraulics this may range from not a lot to perhaps 30%. It may not be the best system for someone with few practical skills and little knowledge of them. Again, depending upon the type of system, if anything goes wrong it could become expensive and suspect not every engineer will be familiar with them. If a hose bursts, it will empty several litres of oil all over the boat in the vicinity of the burst.

 

[LadyG]

A steel boat is rarely an investment in real terms.

Lots of people are looking for an alternative to paying rent because they cant afford to buy bricks and mortar .

Over the the past fifty years, (and by no means every year), house prices have risen and narrowboat prices have fallen.

I cant see the boat you refer to, but personally i would keep looking.

UNLESS you want  tie up in a marina, or put it in a boatyard and pay ten thousand pounds to sort it.

Boats are available at £40K, but not the sort of boat you really want, namely a sixty footer with accomodation for family members, with a solid fuel stove, maybe Webasto type central heating, good insulation, well maintained and by a good  builder, not a project, with a good survey, id say £65/80K, possibly more but not much less.

 

Edited April 28 by LadyG

[mrsmelly]

Not an ideal length for the Lancaster canal which is also a tad short for actualy CCing. Composting bog needs space to compost the buckets of poo over several weeks, where do you intend keeping them? Cassette/porta pottis is the easiest by far bog option.  Bow and stern thrusters, both totaly unneccesary and extra problems when they DO at some point go wrong as well as the already more complex drive as Tony has advised.....................

Edited April 27 by mrsmelly

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. It only has 6mm hull sides and if they are pitted by a bit over 2mm the boat may be uninsurable fully comprehensive, although you could get third party.

Almost every narrowboat on the market has 6mm hull sides, apart from Springers which are thinner, so this isn't really a thing to worry about.

It's an ex hire boat with multiple cabins. Fine if you have a family to house, but if you are a single or couple you will probably want to take some of the bunks out. Which then leads to the question whether having several small 'rooms' is what you want, or whether you would be better with a boat with fewer larger spaces.

Forget about compost toilets. CRT have banned the disposal of 'compost' (in reality just bagged poo and paper) in their refuse bins, and if you have nowhere on land to store it while it decomposes, it's just a headache. The boat has two pumpout toilets. There might be one or two waste tanks which they empty into. Remove one toilet and the second tank if there are two, and keep the other one. The saving in cost by not replacing the toilet will cover your pumpout charges for quite a while.

In queries like this I normally suggest the buyer move the boat themselves rather than paying for road transportation - the saving in lorry and cranage costs could allow you to take a week or two's unpaid leave to make the move. But in this case with a length of 66ft I think the boat may be too long for the Rufford Branch, and possibly also too deep a draft for the Ribble Link.

That in turn leads me to wonder whether moving a boat this size to the Lancaster canal would materially devalue it. Not an issue if you intend to keep it long term, but could be if you need to sell.

[Tam & Di]

Hire boats were mostly fitted out on the basis that they would be in use through the summer, so insulation was minimal if at all. It is possible something was done about that in the 2008 refit, but I suspect not. If this is the case it would be a very cold boat to live on in the winter. It would also be hotter than a decently insulated craft in the summer.

[Birdie2601]

Thank you so much for the advice and tips guys 🙂 So helpful....

 

Paul C - yes it was to have spare beds for visiting teenagers on Uni breaks, so a flexible layout that can convert low bunks to sofa spaces during 'quite periods', I have had advice below on the compost loo issue and it appears not OK with CRT so I will stick to traditional options.  Personally I would like more floor space so maybe I can rethink and look at other layouts which I can 'flex' out.  I don't know why I anticpated the reconditioned stove and fit to be around 2k but I don't have a quote for that or fitting solar, but I know there are some kits & yes I will be a newbie but many seem to do it and so I bet I can give it a go and pay for some professional support for the critical bits  - but would prefer a boat with these things so maybe keep looking! Thank you for the tips.

 

Tony Brooks - I was worried about the hydraulic type engine and your comments have sealed the deal that it may not be the best option.  My research showed 6mm sides was fine but still you'd want specific readings to check and so I will double check this!  Your comment on the Alde heating being obsolete is really helpful as yes that would be a big bother for me and not a good thing to find out later down the line when costs may pile up or I end up in the cold brrhhhh  .  Thank you for the advice.

 

Lady G - I get your point completely that it is not an 'investment' per se, not in the way bricks and mortar are, but I am not in that position and yes it would still be more preferable to renting where the cheapest decent rentals in my area are approx 1000pcm and then running costs on top, that is more of a money pit than a boat.  But I do get your point that it's important to get the right boat that whilst not an investment can at least retain some of it's value if I take good care of it - providing of course I can find one that has been taken good care of! Then when I can resume my new career after a period of diffulty it will be nice deposit for me....unless I love the life and carry on crusing into my dotage which sounds appealing when I look at how society is going in some areas...I'd really enjoy the different lifestyle too so I expect there is more to my decision than I clarified.

 

MrsMelly - The Lancaster is my local canal for my school run initially so I just thought I'd CC up and down part of it and that would be ideal for my current circumstances which will then change and I can go further.  I also noticed that a lot of boaters seem to have the space for thrusters but decide they don't need them and your point about the cost of fixing when they do go wrong, along with Tony's comments on the hydraulics have made me more aware of buying a simpler engine set up - any tips on this would be great  also the poo/compost toilet idea has been flushed down the loo lol as I can't cruise around with bags of the brown stuff and I completely understand why the CRT have opted not to have it in bins but perhaps it would have been more useful in rural areas to create 'dumps' for the manure which could then be used to create free fertilizer or some other eco friendly need....it's like we are not being very progressive in society when individuals are taking responsibility for 'their shit' (if you'll pardon the pun' or let's say waste...but organisations don't back them up and render their efforts obsolete.  Anyway I can't solve all of that but perhaps when I join the community it's something we can all contribute towards as change for good......well it's good.

 

David Mack - your points are all very on the point, the Rufford branch of L&L only takes 62ft which I thought would be too small in the end with teens/family visiting for a week/couple weeks at time etc so I thought I'd go bigger and get it transported.  Your very right it may well materially devalue it when I come to sell?  The new owner would need to transport it, or I could transport it onto the L&L at that time period as I won't be confined to the Lancaster and that would open up the market.  My intention is to set up a new business working remotely from the boat so saving on rent in the interim, living mindfully and within nature are all part of my considerations.  Maybe I could achieve all of this on a boat not 65-70ft but then I worry I will put off my older children visiting me or only staying a night or two.  I expect I have a long wish list that is not ideal in terms of my budget  ha ha - so far I am thinking a) save rent b) new family lifestyle c) live mindfully in nature.  Your news on the compoo toilets has been very helpful too!  Thank you for your advice.

 

Overall I would like to say thank I am feeling really grateful to have such nice and helpful responses that are helping me shape the outcome for my very important decisions.....which boat arghhh If anyone has seen a boat that can offer me a lot of what I need then please do DM me or post it on here.  I have been researching boat builders etc and understand I don't have the budget for a traditional Less Allen, Dave Harris, Malcolm Braine, Norton Canes, Steve Hudson, Roger Fuller, Roger Faringdon, Reeves Coetc (from forum research) but maybe an older Colecraft or Blackprince ex hire boat might suffice? all things being equal etc  If anyone has an ideas or sees anything don't hesitate to drop me a link and I'd be truly over the moon - it's quite a lot to consider all things in like decent inverter, solar, 2 bunks/sleep pod areas plus a dinette/kitchen/lounge area, good engine, blacked, not overplated or left uncared for with poor upkeep etc.... I think the smallest I could go for is 62ft (for Rufford/Ribble Link to L&L) to but honestly I think paying for transport might be a game changer to give me extra space for work from home and visitors? Please only think of sending a link if your that way inclined or have viewed something that doesn't suit you but may suit my criteria.....I am not wishing to over burden or ask for too much, just a hand if you can and no worries if you can't.  Already I feel better informed and I am so pleased that this forum is here and you lovely folk to help others - thank you! Peace and good vibes, B

 

 

 

 

[Birdie2601]

Thank you Tam & Di- yes it's a good point to look at the insulation for winter periods and I did not reckon that into the mix so I will now research which type of insulation is best - if you have any pointers on this please let me know? The other side of the coin in that this will also possibly be a very hot boat in summer due to the same reason doesn't quite compute in my brain but I bet it makes sense when I research the technical stuff! If you have an idea on best insulation or a year that old insulation types stopped being used, please do update me.  Thank you for advice, B

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, Birdie2601 said:

so I just thought I'd CC up and down part of it and that would be ideal for my current circumstances

 

Have you read and understood what CaRT requires from people who licence as CCers? If you don't "satisfy the board" that you are moving far enough, it is possible that you could lose the boat to CaRT - you would normally get plenty of notice that CaRT are not happy with you, long before court action. You can't stay in one spot for more than 14 days, or less if the notices tell you (there are  afew with only a couple of hours, but usually near shops).

 

If it helps, I bought an ex hire boat and was very happy with it for over 20 years with no major issues. Those from major hire fleets usually make access for servicing and repair far easier than boats built for the private market, and from reputable hire fleets are usually well maintained, eve if they have a lot of engine hours on them. Those hours are likely to have been done actually moving on the canals, rather than sitting by the bank running at idle in neutral to charge batteries or get hot water. \that is not good for engines.

 

Others here have ex hire boats.

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Birdie2601 said:

I have been researching boat builders etc and understand I don't have the budget for a traditional Less Allen, Dave Harris, Malcolm Braine, Norton Canes, Steve Hudson, Roger Fuller, Roger Faringdon, Reeves Coetc (from forum research) but maybe an older Colecraft or Blackprince ex hire boat might suffice?

Older boats by the top names do crop up at reasonable prices from time to time, especially if they have been neglected. But in your position I wouldn't get hung up by the identity of the builder. As well as the products of the big boys, there are lots of boats out there built by small boatbuilders who only produced a handful of boats and many of whose names are all but forgotten. At the age and price bracket you are looking at condition is more important than pedigree. Just choose a boat where the lines and steel detailing appeal to you and the condition is reasonable for the price.

[Birdie2601]

So I have done a bit more research and it seems too difficult to find a family size for under 62ft so I have continued to think 'transport the right boat' that suits me for now and if I can put an offer in that will be great plus I have an old caravan that I can sell, tbh as long as it does not need blacking/much initial maintenance I will have time to save up for a new emergency fund, so if I was to look at a boat like: https://tingdeneboating.com/boats-for-sale/andicraft-65ft-semi-trad-narrowboat-amber/ which seems to have all of my main needs?  Can anyone give me feedback on this engine, maker, value, suitable for liveaboard etc - I can't see anything on the blacking/maintenance mentioned and the images show quite a lot of scuffing around the waterline?  I know I need to go view the boat and get a feel in person and get a new survey etc. it's just it's like 180+ miles away so I wanted a 'headsup' or advice and tips from the long established community on here before I book the trip?  I know Andicraft from research are relatively small/more modern boat builders rather than the traditional makers but they seem to fair well enough in the comments?  I must say this has been a huge learning curve and I hope my new choice gets better feedback  then there will be the hard matter of getting a good price as it's over budget and I need to transport so even if everyone says it's a good option, it might just go a tad over my budget line......but at least it will show that I am getting closer to the mark!! The universe will no doubt send me the right boat or me and I am saying my prayers  Thank you for any advice or tips, all the best, B

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Have you read and understood what CaRT requires from people who licence as CCers? If you don't "satisfy the board" that you are moving far enough, it is possible that you could lose the boat to CaRT - you would normally get plenty of notice that CaRT are not happy with you, long before court action. You can't stay in one spot for more than 14 days, or less if the notices tell you (there are  afew with only a couple of hours, but usually near shops).

 

If it helps, I bought an ex hire boat and was very happy with it for over 20 years with no major issues. Those from major hire fleets usually make access for servicing and repair far easier than boats built for the private market, and from reputable hire fleets are usually well maintained, eve if they have a lot of engine hours on them. Those hours are likely to have been done actually moving on the canals, rather than sitting by the bank running at idle in neutral to charge batteries or get hot water. \that is not good for engines.

 

Others here have ex hire boats.

 

 

 

Oh yes Tony I have had a look, as I have a health issue (that still allows me to cope with life but in a slower more thoughtful way)  I will be allowed one month on a yellow card and I feel I can manage to move every month as a CCer Also thank you for confirming that an ex hire will be a good option and that others like yourself are happily cruising them for many years....I can often get caught up in going for the 'classic choice' and something that will hold it's value but in this instance for this particular purchase there is actually far more considerations to take into account that have led me to broaden my net and I feel happier that I am doing this.....it's a positive thing and great that others have benefitted from ex hire boats too - your points on the engine being used well and in a way that suits the engine and being managed and serviced well are really helpful points and are along the thoughts I had in mind - again thank you for the advice, I have put a link to a boat above - reposted here: (https://tingdeneboating.com/boats-for-sale/andicraft-65ft-semi-trad-narrowboat-amber/) maybe this will be a better bet than the first one - the engine seems more traditional/simple style etc?  Any thoughts on it then please do let me know?  I was thinking I could take a week or so holidsay/go in school break and cruise as far as I can to Lancashire on the Leeds & Liverpool before the Rufford Branch and then get it transported the 15-20 miles via a local truck firm to save a few quid and that would increase my buy budget a little way maybe.  It's all speculative at the moment but it's getting to the point where I can make this work which is positive!! Thanks again, pls do post any tips, B

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Older boats by the top names do crop up at reasonable prices from time to time, especially if they have been neglected. But in your position I wouldn't get hung up by the identity of the builder. As well as the products of the big boys, there are lots of boats out there built by small boatbuilders who only produced a handful of boats and many of whose names are all but forgotten. At the age and price bracket you are looking at condition is more important than pedigree. Just choose a boat where the lines and steel detailing appeal to you and the condition is reasonable for the price.

David this is spot on, I am starting to realise that I know enough to be dangerous ha ha in terms of identity of boat builders and it's easy to get caught up.  The human mind wants a safety net and sometimes it is about stepping around that nagging voice.  I am glad that I did the research though as it has been nice to know and made me feel more 'part of' my future community in a silly way I am so keen on getting something in good condition and started looking at this boat, by a less well known but seemingly well regarded builders: https://tingdeneboating.com/boats-for-sale/andicraft-65ft-semi-trad-narrowboat-amber/ your thoughts would be appreciated and once I have a plan on a couple boats to view I can plan my trip in! I so feel like I am getting closer and am grateful for the advice and tips, truly, all the best Bridie

[Tony Brooks]

There is a lot of wasted space with that front tug deck unless there is a double bed under part of it.

 

The engine is a very common and well respected one, but with a scan read, I can't see the gearbox make and model. Basically PRM mechanical or hydraulic gearboxes good, Hurth mechanical boxes, not so good. Not many hire fleets use Hurth boxes.

 

Please note that I said REPUTABLE hire fleet, here are or have been some shockers, maintenance wise, around.

Edited April 27 by Tony Brooks

[Birdie2601]

Thanks Tony, thats a good point regarding the tug front deck, and the specific gearboxes but then I seem to remember being advised against hydraulic due to fixing costs and being more specialist and problematic so I may try to go for a PRM mechanical type, it seems that it is one to go and view and then try to find the additional information and see if it is reputable and well looked after etc. I feel condition is key for my search  and I don't mind the odd 'surprise' but a shocker would be so unwelcome.....of course!! Cheers agian,

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Birdie2601 said:

yes it was to have spare beds for visiting teenagers on Uni breaks, so a flexible layout that can convert low bunks to sofa spaces during 'quite periods',

For how long and how often will the teenagers be staying? Or in other words will they be happy to camp on whatever facilities you can offer, or will they need dedicated home-from-home type accommodation?  We had a tale on here a while ago of a chap who accepted significant compromises in his boat layout in order to be able to accommodate holiday stays by his children and grandchildren. But in 5+ years of boat ownership the family had only come to stay once, meanwhile he had suffered the inconvenience of the boat layout for 5 years for virtually no benefit.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Birdie2601 said:

Thanks Tony, thats a good point regarding the tug front deck, and the specific gearboxes but then I seem to remember being advised against hydraulic due to fixing costs and being more specialist and problematic so I may try to go for a PRM mechanical type, it seems that it is one to go and view and then try to find the additional information and see if it is reputable and well looked after etc. I feel condition is key for my search  and I don't mind the odd 'surprise' but a shocker would be so unwelcome.....of course!! Cheers agian,

 

A hydraulic gearbox uses oil pressure to change the gear. the actual gears themselves are much like car gears so are reliable. A hydraulic drive is totally different, although some people get confused. A hydraulic drive, or to give it the full name hydrostatic drive, has no actual gears, just a hydraulic pump, a motor, a control valve and a pressure relief valve. The pump moves oil down pipes into the motor where it turns the motor. It is the pump and motor the MIGHT be expensive, depending upon type and quality. The more efficient ones tend to be the expensive ones. Hydraulic drives are not unknown on canal boats but they are rare.

 

PRM Hydraulic GEARBOXES are probably the most reliable on the canals, one of those would be my first choice. Hydraulic gearboxes control the speed of gear engagement all by themselves, a mechanical box, using cables and levers, can be wrecked by a heavy-handed idiot fairly easily.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Have you read and understood what CaRT requires from people who licence as CCers? If you don't "satisfy the board" that you are moving far enough, it is possible that you could lose the boat to CaRT - you would normally get plenty of notice that CaRT are not happy with you, long before court action. You can't stay in one spot for more than 14 days, or less if the notices tell you (there are  afew with only a couple of hours, but usually near shops).

The Lancaster Canal is 42 miles long from Preston to Tewitfield. In order to demonstrate to CRT that you are a genuine CCer (with a boat that is too long to go further afield) you will need to travel the full length of the canal a few times a year, and staying at a number of different places along the way. You aren't allowed to just switch between a couple of places - you probably need to visit (and have been sighted by CRT at) a couple of other places before returning to your first location.

1 hour ago, Birdie2601 said:

as I have a health issue (that still allows me to cope with life but in a slower more thoughtful way)  I will be allowed one month on a yellow card and I feel I can manage to move every month as a CCer 

I doubt CRT will accept regular one month stays on an ongoing basis, particularly from a new licence holder. The concession which allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days if reasonable in the circumstances is intended to accommodate being unable to move the boat due to illness/injury, breakdown or unplanned canal closure. It would normally be expected that when the circumstance giving rise to the extended stay had ended you would revert to maximum 14 day stays. And CRT will be more willing to accommodate extended stays by an existing boater who becomes ill or injured than by one who cannot achieve the movement requirements on day one.

[Tracy D'arth]

If you have a boat that is too long to leave the Lancaster Canal, how are you going to maintain it with regards to regular docking for blacking and repair? Anything over 62' is impossible to get through the Rufford branch and over 64' is a bugger on the Leeds Liverpool.

Who is going to buy a boat that is stranded on a canal unless they pay a lot of money to lift and transport by road?

Edited April 27 by Tracy D'arth

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you have a boat that is too long to leave the Lancaster Canal, how are you going to maintain it with regards to regular docking for blacking and repair?

 

Garstang Marina or Glasson Basin like everyone else does?

[Arthur Marshall]

Starting off with the idea that continuous cruising means moving the boat once a month really isn't a good sign.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Starting off with the idea that continuous cruising means moving the boat once a month really isn't a good sign.

 

I was thinking this too. 

 

Also, starting off with a known existing medical condition routinely requiring stays of one month at a time, routinely breaching the 14 day limit would not meet the "reasonable under circumstances" test.

 

An applicant knowing all this from the get-go is likely to be advised a home mooring is appropriate, not CCing.

[MrsM]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I was thinking this too. 

 

Also, starting off with a known existing medical condition routinely requiring stays of one month at a time, routinely breaching the 14 day limit would not meet the "reasonable under circumstances" test.

 

An applicant knowing all this from the get-go is likely to be advised a home mooring is appropriate, not CCing.

And needing to be in a specific area for "the school run". I fear the OP might be a bit disappointed by CRT's requirements. The question of having a boat confined to a small part of the network, and therefore unable to engage in bona fide navigation, because it is too long to transit out is an interesting one. A bit like a fattie having to CC in a confined area because it can't pass through narrow locks. Is this really CC'ing? Could, for example, CRT insist on the OP either taking a home mooring or moving the boat to a canal it is better suited to due to its length, and that will permit ongoing navigation?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, MrsM said:

The question of having a boat confined to a small part of the network, and therefore unable to engage in bona fide navigation, because it is too long to transit out is an interesting one. A bit like a fattie having to CC in a confined area because it can't pass through narrow locks. Is this really CC'ing?

 

These two are exactly the same. There is a regulation I CBA to cite right now that requires a boat to be "Suitable for the navigation", or some such term. A fattie on a thin canal is not "suitable for the navigation", nor is a 68ft boat on a canal with 60ft locks. 

 

 

[LadyG]

7 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Starting off with the idea that continuous cruising means moving the boat once a month really isn't a good sign.

I agree, if the OP has known health issues that will make it difficult to move the boat, yet a family who are only available when overnight accomodstion is available, it just looks all very odd

If the OP currently is not in employment and is  on benefits, i would expect a radical change of circumstance would not be easy, and not necessarily financially sound. Boats tend to require lumps of money from time, so a lot of uncertainty. Most boaters do a lot of DIY, not for the love of it, but out of necessity.

 

Edited April 28 by LadyG

[Tam & Di]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

There is a regulation I CBA to cite right now that requires a boat to be "Suitable for the navigation", or some such term.

 

Article 3 of the Canal Byelaws "As to Vessels to be used on Canals" reads "Fitness of Vessels: No person shall bring use or leave in any canal any vessel which is not in every respect fit for navigation on the canal or part thereof where it is intended to be used."

I can imagine the argument that a boat too wide to use a canal with 7' locks might reasonably have a contract, say, to carry goods on a lock-free pound, but I don't think "I need a boat more than 62' to live on and family might visit" is a particularly strong argument against the obligation to engage in bona fide navigation.

 

Edited April 28 by Tam & Di