Boat builder ideas

[brianbitmap]

I'm planning to have a mini Dutch barge built, about 10 metres, mainly for use on the Thames.  I know Branson used to do one that size but I never liked the design much as it had a rear access wheelhouse.  I've got my own design and internal layout planned, and now need to find a good builder.  I have approached one builder of "bespoke" barges and have been singularly unimpressed.  Does anyone have any ideas on who might be good to take on a project like this? 

[magnetman]

A lot of boat fabricators don't want too much customer input in case it turns out to be a bad Boat. 

 

If I was getting a steel Boat built and had a bit of money I would talk to C Toms in Cornwall. They know a thing or two but would need the design to be produced by a naval architect. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, brianbitmap said:

I'm planning to have a mini Dutch barge built, about 10 metres, mainly for use on the Thames.  I know Branson used to do one that size but I never liked the design much as it had a rear access wheelhouse.  I've got my own design and internal layout planned, and now need to find a good builder.  I have approached one builder of "bespoke" barges and have been singularly unimpressed.  Does anyone have any ideas on who might be good to take on a project like this? 

Welcome to the forum, Do you have much experience with boat design?

[MtB]

Were I a boat builder, I too would run a mile from any would-be customer wanting a hull built to their own design. 

 

Unless of course they could convince me of their professional hull-designing credentials.

 

 

[Francis Herne]

R W Davis at Saul Junction?

Well respected yard and they've built a wide variety of Dutch-style barges.

 

EDIT: removed bit about getting to the Thames, I somehow forgot about the K&A...

They work on everything from narrowboats to small coastal freighters, compared to say Peter Nicholls who builds to a couple of standard designs and probably wouldn't do a custom one.

Edited January 25 by Francis Herne

[David Mack]

What is not clear to me is are you saying that:

1: you want to slightly modify a boatbuilders' existing Dutch barge design, and have it fitted out to your own internal layout;

2. you have a fully detailed design, which you are looking for someone to fabricate; or

3. you have some design ideas of your own for a boat that is significantly different from existing designs, but which would need to be developed further to define the exact hull shape, framing dimensions etc before it could be constructed?

 

If 1. then talk to whoever builds the design you like to see how your aspirations can be accommodated with minimum change to the existing product.

If 2, then all you need is a fabricator, but it will be up to you to resolve the inevitable queries that will come up during the construction.

If 3, then you need a boat designer (who may or may not be a qualified naval architect) to fully develop the design from your concept to detailed drawings and specifications. The designer will know who to recommend to build the boat, and will be willing (for a fee) to supervise the construction and resolve the design queries on your behalf.

Option 1 will cost little more than the builder's standard offering. Options 2 and 3 are likely to be significantly more expensive.

 

 

[blackrose]

14 hours ago, brianbitmap said:

I'm planning to have a mini Dutch barge built, about 10 metres, mainly for use on the Thames.  

 

You might want to post your question on the DBA forum as some of their members probably know a bit more about barge design than most on here. 

 

https://www.barges.org/

 

By the way, if we're being pedantic a new build barge isn't a Dutch barge if it's being built in this country, but you can call it a Dutch style barge if that's what it is.

Edited January 25 by blackrose

[Steve56]

1 hour ago, Francis Herne said:

R W Davis at Saul Junction?

Well respected yard and they've built a wide variety of Dutch-style barges.

One issue would be no route to the Thames (except via Land's End!)

I would second that. They have built a number of barges as well as many other styles of boat over the years. The quality of there steelwork is excellent. Dependent on size should be able to go across the K&A to London. It would certainly be worth having a chat with them.

[Bee]

PM sent

[brianbitmap]

Hi everyone and thanks for the input.  I'm not a designer but used to have a barge that I took across the Channel and all round France, Belgium, Netherlands and across Germany to Poland and back, so have quite a bit of experience as a user, and a clear idea about what works and what doesn't.  

If I can find a builder that can do the hull design for a cut down Luxemotor, all well and good.  If not, the Branson 34ft hull is perfectly Ok for what I want and would just need a few changes to the superstructure.  Branson can do this for a fee and produce the cutting files, in which case I would just need a competent yard who can do the build and supervise the fitout.  

I also want to find a yard that builds to a quoted price, and not like the "bespoke" yard I'm currently dealing with that has a contract with a clause saying they can put up the price during build if their costs go up.  (The yard in question has been mentioned on this forum before, and I would endorse what has been said).

Interesting that a few replies have mentioned RW Davis.  I was actually up there last week looking at an American style trawler hull they have.  My last boat was an twin engine trawler yacht and its my second favourite boat style after the Dutch barge.  I was impressed by what I saw at the yard and appreciate the endorsements I've seen on the forum here.  Thanks for that.

 

I'm also thinking of going (at least hybrid) electric, but have no experience of that, and would appreciate any feedback anyone has.

 

By the way, on the question of whether a boat built in the UK counts as a Dutch barge, ---Brussels sprouts don't always come from you-know-where 🙂

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, brianbitmap said:

By the way, on the question of whether a boat built in the UK counts as a Dutch barge, ---Brussels sprouts don't always come from you-know-where

 

 

 

A Dutch barge has to be built in the Netherlands - what you should probably look for is a 'Ditch Barge'.

Edited January 25 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Tee]

Neither does a Chinese takeaway (other ethnic meals are available)

[brianbitmap]

2 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Neither does a Chinese takeaway (other ethnic meals are available)

Ah, surely you mean a Chinese style takeaway?  I did order a real Chinese takeaway once but it was really cold by the time it got here.

[Tracy D'arth]

Mars bars are not from another planet either.

[Tonka]

22 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Mars bars are not from another planet either.

Ruined my childhood now

[ditchcrawler]

24 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Mars bars are not from another planet either.

Thats debatable

[Tonka]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats debatable

Galaxy and Milky Way are from outerspace though 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, brianbitmap said:

I also want to find a yard that builds to a quoted price, and not like the "bespoke" yard I'm currently dealing with that has a contract with a clause saying they can put up the price during build if their costs go up.

So you want the boatbuilder to take all the costs risk. We are currently living in an uncertain world, and nobody can be sure how much material costs will change between now and the time your boat is completed. Neither can we know what wage inflation is going to be over the period, and how much more a boat builder is going to have to pay his staff so they don't wander off to a competitor.

If you expect a boatbuilder to give you a fixed price now, you had better be prepared to accept the healthy premium he will want to cover all that cost risk.  And don't make any changes during the build, even small ones. You will get charged a lot for those.

I suspect you will find it difficult to even get a price on that basis. Building up a cost estimate to the degree of certainty to quote a fixed price is itself quite a task, with no certainty for the boatbuilder that you will commission the work in the end. Far easier for the him to record staff time materials and other costs as the job proceeds, and just bill those (with a profit markup) on a monthly basis. 

Good boatbuilders are not short of work. Why would they take all the risk and hassle you are proposing when other customers are easier to deal with?

[IanD]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

So you want the boatbuilder to take all the costs risk. We are currently living in an uncertain world, and nobody can be sure how much material costs will change between now and the time your boat is completed. Neither can we know what wage inflation is going to be over the period, and how much more a boat builder is going to have to pay his staff so they don't wander off to a competitor.

If you expect a boatbuilder to give you a fixed price now, you had better be prepared to accept the healthy premium he will want to cover all that cost risk.  And don't make any changes during the build, even small ones. You will get charged a lot for those.

I suspect you will find it difficult to even get a price on that basis. Building up a cost estimate to the degree of certainty to quote a fixed price is itself quite a task, with no certainty for the boatbuilder that you will commission the work in the end. Far easier for the him to record staff time materials and other costs as the job proceeds, and just bill those (with a profit markup) on a monthly basis. 

Good boatbuilders are not short of work. Why would they take all the risk and hassle you are proposing when other customers are easier to deal with?

 

I had exactly this conversation with Ricky after he'd given me a quotation and before build started. He said that he'd be happy to work either way, but if I wanted a guaranteed price it would have to be significantly higher than the quotation (at least +10%?) to allow for possible unforeseen cost increases during build -- and also any additions/changes to the spec during the build would be charged extra anyway.

 

Given that all the material/price rises due to Ukraine hit hard during the build (steel, wood, generator, electrical gear, internal materials and fittings...) and I added on quite a few extra bits/features during the fitout, I was quite happy that the final delivered cost -- all of which was itemised as to where the extra money went -- came in less than 10% higher than the quotation from 18 months earlier 🙂

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Good boatbuilders are not short of work. Why would they take all the risk and hassle you are proposing when other customers are easier to deal with?

 

^^^This^^^

 

It works both ways, not that you'd know that from the way the media writes about employing either tradesmen or construction firms for small projects. The better quality suppliers will be just as picky about choosing their clients as the OP is being about choosing their builder. The media encourages people to think 'cash is king' and people with money can demand the earth, collect reams of free quotes then line them up on the table and choose one. It really doesn't work like that. If a good firm gets the impression this is happening them tend to lose interest rapidly and just quote high with little attention to detail. It tends to work better if a client interviews a few builders and chooses one on the basis of their abilities to do the work, tells them this and asks for an outline estimate with the intention of going ahead with them if it looks affordable, with no other firm in the picture.

 

Bit of a rant, I know!