Proposed new accessible electric narrowboat.

[Andrew Grainger]

Anyone with experience of building a new, accessible and all electric narrowboat? Just starting feasibility and information gratefully received.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Welcome to the forum. Can you give any more details of the project? Is this boat for an organisation, or a personal/family one? Size of boat? Range?

There are people here who have had electric boats build, or converted dinosaur juice powered ones to electric. Similarly, there are people involved in community, or society boats who will know about building them to be accessible. Some more details will help.

[magpie patrick]

All boats are one-offs, but an electrically propelled disabled accessible boat more so than most. 

 

I can't offer practical experience but I know who can. The Monmouthshire, Brecon and Abergavenny Canal Trust operate one from Goytre, 60 feet long, 8 foot 6 wide and double ended (can be steered from either end) so also has a motor at each end. They started running it in 2019 I think. My main experience is in steering it from Goytre to Govilon that Autumn. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

As @Jen-in-Wellies has asked, for yourself or charitable work? If for a charity you can try this charity for information regarding the build, as they’ve had an electric widebeam built recently.

 https://etheltrust.co.uk/

[ditchcrawler]

There is one on the Coventry canal at Nuneaton Home - The Hargreaves Narrowboat Trust  

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Anyone with experience of building a new, accessible and all electric narrowboat? Just starting feasibility and information gratefully received.

 

The very first thing to consider is where the electricity is going to come from.

 

Are you charging it from a shore electricity supply at the home mooring, or diesel generator(s) on board? Or both? 

 

 

[Tim Lewis]

There is one at Milton Keynes:

 

https://www.bmkwaterway.org/electra/story/

[Andrew Grainger]

Thanks for all the comments, I am new to this forum.
To clarify, the proposal is a new build Narrowboat, c45ft length. With a permanent mooring with shore power when required. Part time live aboard, part time cruising, some extended cruises though minimal in winter months.
Objective is to fit out to standards as close as possible equivalent to pasivhaus for housing. 
So, all electric (engine, heating, cooking), high levels of insulation, MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier, max solar PV. Accessibility for as we age. 
Examples, contacts, ideas all welcome thank you. 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

some extended cruises

 

You will need to find a charging method as an alternative to solar for your extended cruising as you are unlikley to be able to fit sufficient solar to a 45 foot narrowboat (probably only about 30 feet of usable roof space).

Obviously you will have unlimited electricity when on your mooring, but I'd suggest you look at having, at least, a 5Kw and probably a 7kw cacooned diesel generator built in whilst you have the opportunity. 

 

Whilst trying 'to be green' and use electricity, as there are no EV charging facilities on the canals, you will have to accept that you need to run a diesel engine to provide the power you will need on an 'all electric boat'.

 

I'd budget for a total of around £10,000 for the generator, as, being an electric boat you will also need a fuel tank installing (normally a generator can tap into the main diesel tank.

 

It will need to be planned in at an early design stage.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

8 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Thanks for all the comments, I am new to this forum.
To clarify, the proposal is a new build Narrowboat, c45ft length. With a permanent mooring with shore power when required. Part time live aboard, part time cruising, some extended cruises though minimal in winter months.
Objective is to fit out to standards as close as possible equivalent to pasivhaus for housing. 
So, all electric (engine, heating, cooking), high levels of insulation, MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier, max solar PV. Accessibility for as we age. 
Examples, contacts, ideas all welcome thank you. 

As @Alan de Enfield has said, what you are looking to do is currently nigh impossible without a diesel generator. Boats are not big enough to either gather the required solar energy to live a 21st century life in winter, or sufficiently insulated to get near passive heating. .A narrowboat has limited roof area for solar panels. A wide beam is better and can generate enough power for summer cruising, but not electric cooking. Cruising in a wide beam is limited to only disparate parts of the network. In winter, solar energy per day drops by an order of magnitude over summer, exactly the time you would want your electric heating to work. There are currently no heat pumps, air, or water source, known that are suitable for a  based boat and little practical experience with trying to make one work. The only UK navigation authority with some sort of electric charging network to allow reliable long range cruising is on the Norfolk Broads. The others, including the biggest, Canal River Trust don't have any such thing, nor any plans to build one. They don't have the budget to maintain what they have, let alone add anything new.

For heating, the insulation thickness is directly competing with the limited volume of internal living space, especially in a narrowboat. The outer shell is steel, with high heat conductivity. The boat is sitting in water that is very good at removing heat from the lower parts of the boat.

@IanD has had an electric/battery boat with diesel generator recently build by Finesse Boats, who know a lot about electric drives now. @peterboat has converted boats to electric drive by solar power, but uses fuels for heating and cooking.

The life style you are looking at would be better served in a new build land building, with some surrounding land, where the low energy density of renewables and the design constraints of passive housing are less of an issue. It requires more footprint area than most inland boats can give. Plus grid electricity is more readily available. The questions you are asking come up regularly from new members. Boats are not the eco lifestyle they are thinking they are.

[1st ade]

11 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

There is one at Milton Keynes:

 

https://www.bmkwaterway.org/electra/story/

if @Andrew Grainger will give me contact details (by PM) I'll try and put him in touch with the people who run Electra - they learnt a lot and not just about boats, but moorings, parking, wheelchairs, turning points, the general public etc...

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Boats are not the eco lifestyle they are thinking they are.

 

^^^This^^^ is worth repeating.

 

Yes an all-electric boat sounds wonderfully 'eco' but to get the electricity in sufficient quantity, one has to burn diesel. So they are not 'eco' at all really. 

 

One can insulate to the full extend possible and cover the boat with solar panels but I think even Peter with his widebeam boat with space for 5kW of solar says he cannot cruise all day every day on solar alone. on a 45ft narrowboat I doubt there will be space for more than about 2kW of panels. Electric cooking and water heating will further reduce the cruising range available. 

 

Also bear in mind solar hardly works at all in winter. 

 

 

[Rebotco]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You will need to find a charging method as an alternative to solar for your extended cruising as you are unlikley to be able to fit sufficient solar to a 45 foot narrowboat (probably only about 30 feet of usable roof space).

Obviously you will have unlimited electricity when on your mooring, but I'd suggest you look at having, at least, a 5Kw and probably a 7kw cacooned diesel generator built in whilst you have the opportunity. 

 

Whilst trying 'to be green' and use electricity, as there are no EV charging facilities on the canals, you will have to accept that you need to run a diesel engine to provide the power you will need on an 'all electric boat'.

 

I'd budget for a total of around £10,000 for the generator, as, being an electric boat you will also need a fuel tank installing (normally a generator can tap into the main diesel tank.

 

It will need to be planned in at an early design stage.

Not strictly correct - there have been electric charging facilities along the Mon and Brec for at least 20 years!

Although this is a CRT canal, it may be the charging infra structure was installed by the electric boat hire companies.

[Andrew Grainger]

4 hours ago, 1st ade said:

if @Andrew Grainger will give me contact details (by PM) I'll try and put him in touch with the people who run Electra - they learnt a lot and not just about boats, but moorings, parking, wheelchairs, turning points, the general public etc...

Thank you that’s very helpful. Apparently I can’t PM you as I am new to this forum. 

6 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

As @Alan de Enfield has said, what you are looking to do is currently nigh impossible without a diesel generator. Boats are not big enough to either gather the required solar energy to live a 21st century life in winter, or sufficiently insulated to get near passive heating. .A narrowboat has limited roof area for solar panels. A wide beam is better and can generate enough power for summer cruising, but not electric cooking. Cruising in a wide beam is limited to only disparate parts of the network. In winter, solar energy per day drops by an order of magnitude over summer, exactly the time you would want your electric heating to work. There are currently no heat pumps, air, or water source, known that are suitable for a  based boat and little practical experience with trying to make one work. The only UK navigation authority with some sort of electric charging network to allow reliable long range cruising is on the Norfolk Broads. The others, including the biggest, Canal River Trust don't have any such thing, nor any plans to build one. They don't have the budget to maintain what they have, let alone add anything new.

For heating, the insulation thickness is directly competing with the limited volume of internal living space, especially in a narrowboat. The outer shell is steel, with high heat conductivity. The boat is sitting in water that is very good at removing heat from the lower parts of the boat.

@IanD has had an electric/battery boat with diesel generator recently build by Finesse Boats, who know a lot about electric drives now. @peterboat has converted boats to electric drive by solar power, but uses fuels for heating and cooking.

The life style you are looking at would be better served in a new build land building, with some surrounding land, where the low energy density of renewables and the design constraints of passive housing are less of an issue. It requires more footprint area than most inland boats can give. Plus grid electricity is more readily available. The questions you are asking come up regularly from new members. Boats are not the eco lifestyle they are thinking they are.

Thanks and I understand the challenges Are substantial, that’s why I am looking into this. I have already done a project on land. If I conclude there is no other way than rely on diesel I shall not proceed! I do accept that in winter I shall not be able to cruise any distance and will be substantially reliant on shore power. That said, my heat demand should be very low if I can get enough insulation and use mechanical ventilation with heat recovery. 

[1st ade]

39 minutes ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Thank you that’s very helpful. Apparently I can’t PM you as I am new to this forum

Keep posting (sensible) questions, and you will soon be able to - I'm a Town Councillor for one of the Parishes in Milton Keynes with a "canalside" presence (and an interest in waterways!) so have quite a bit to do with an Electric boat that might drop visitors off once or twice a week...

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Andrew Grainger said:

That said, my heat demand should be very low if I can get enough insulation and use mechanical ventilation with heat recovery. 

 

This is something I've never seen used on a boat. In houses I've always suspected the amount of energy recovered is less than the amount electrical energy it takes to recover it.

 

Have you any calculations showing it is worthwhile from an energy-saving point of view please? 

 

In houses, the living space is virtually sealed up and mechanical ventilation is used to maintain a controlled number of air changes per hour to keep oxygen levels up and CO2 levels down. Its nothing to do with energy efficiency AIUI. On a boat (with or without a solid fuel stove), the ventilation is conventionally passive via air vents. I suspect mechanical ventilation with heat recovery might move you backwards in the fight to get all your energy from the sun.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by MtB
Clarify a point.

[Ronaldo47]

A decade or so ago, one of the hire companies did offer a couple of electric boats.  The downside I saw as a potential hirer was that you virtually had to follow a fixed itinery from boatyard to boatyard where overnight charging facilities had been provided, and the idea of spending several nights in  boatyards rather than out in the country, was not appealing.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typo

[Andrew Grainger]

46 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This is something I've never seen used on a boat. In houses I've always suspected the amount of energy recovered is less than the amount electrical energy it takes to recover it.

 

Have you any calculations showing it is worthwhile from an energy-saving point of view please? 

 

In houses, the living space is virtually sealed up and mechanical ventilation is used to maintain a controlled number of air changes per hour to keep oxygen levels up and CO2 levels down. Its nothing to do with energy efficiency AIUI. On a boat (with or without a solid fuel stove), the ventilation is conventionally passive via air vents. I suspect mechanical ventilation with heat recovery might move you backwards in the fight to get all your energy from the sun.

 

 

I suspect you are right, this may be new territory in the boating world and no I’ve not yet got calcs. I do know the energy draw is very low. Other important benefits include air filtration (getting rid of smoke from stoves), and dehumidification particularly as we are London based. 

[David Mack]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Grainger said:

I suspect you are right, this may be new territory in the boating world and no I’ve not yet got calcs. I do know the energy draw is very low. Other important benefits include air filtration (getting rid of smoke from stoves), and dehumidification particularly as we are London based. 

If you are going to have a stove then you lose the ability to recover heat from a substantial proportion of the air leaving the boat cabin, making the whole process even less worthwhile.

[Alan de Enfield]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Other important benefits include air filtration (getting rid of smoke from stoves),

 

You previously said heating was electric.

 

18 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

So, all electric (engine, heating, cooking),

 

 

If you are planning a solid fuel stove then this opens up a totally new 'can of worms' and will make it very difficult and expensive trying to make  your boat to pasivhaus standards.

 

18 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Objective is to fit out to standards as close as possible equivalent to pasivhaus for housing. 

 

Combustion air

Another consideration is the ventilation requirement for the woodburning stove. Building Regs stipulate that 'Combustion appliances shall be so installed that there is an adequate supply of air to them for combustion, to prevent overheating and for the efficient working of any flue' - Requirements J1, Approved Document J.

This means that instead of the solid fuel stove drawing the combustion air from the room, it ideally needs to have an air supply duct drawing fresh air from the outside connected to the body of the stove itself. Not all stoves have this option; here is a list of stoves that take a direct air supply

You may wish to talk to us about whether you need a woodburning stove which requires a partial or total direct air supply. If it is a very air tight house, or even an extension to an existing house, built to passive house standard or similar, look at total direct air stoves. For Passiv Haus homes a DIBt stove may be required.

 

Stoves for Airtight Houses : Stoves for airtight homes, UK stove building regulations (stovesonline.co.uk)

[magnetman]

Neighbours stoves. 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You previously said heating was electric.

 

 

I suspect it has been noted that other boats at the mooring have stoves. 

[David Mack]

21 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Neighbours stoves. 

 

I suspect it has been noted that other boats at the mooring have stoves. 

In that case why just stoves? Filtration of air entering the boat should stop particles from any source, such as diesel engines or dust from the towpath.

[magnetman]

The biggest air quality nuisance is other people having stoves on their Boats. 

 

This would be particularly relevant in places like battle bridge basin or other London marinas. 

 

I'm getting a feeling the OP Boat is not moored on the towpath. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

I'm getting a feeling the OP Boat is not moored on the towpath. 

 

 

 

 

I have a very strong feeling that the boat is currently just a twinkle in the OP's eye and doesn't yet even exist 'on paper'.

 

23 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Just starting feasibility....................

 

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have a very strong feeling that the boat is currently just a twinkle in the OP's eye and doesn't yet even exist 'on paper'.

 

 

 

= not moored on the towpath

 

Or anywhere else !