Proposed new accessible electric narrowboat.

[Andrew Grainger]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You previously said heating was electric.

 

 

 

If you are planning a solid fuel stove then this opens up a totally new 'can of worms' and will make it very difficult and expensive trying to make  your boat to pasivhaus standards.

 

 

Combustion air

Another consideration is the ventilation requirement for the woodburning stove. Building Regs stipulate that 'Combustion appliances shall be so installed that there is an adequate supply of air to them for combustion, to prevent overheating and for the efficient working of any flue' - Requirements J1, Approved Document J.

This means that instead of the solid fuel stove drawing the combustion air from the room, it ideally needs to have an air supply duct drawing fresh air from the outside connected to the body of the stove itself. Not all stoves have this option; here is a list of stoves that take a direct air supply

You may wish to talk to us about whether you need a woodburning stove which requires a partial or total direct air supply. If it is a very air tight house, or even an extension to an existing house, built to passive house standard or similar, look at total direct air stoves. For Passiv Haus homes a DIBt stove may be required.

 

Stoves for Airtight Houses : Stoves for airtight homes, UK stove building regulations (stovesonline.co.uk)

Absolutely not planning a stove. I meant filtering air from all particulates, notably stoves on the cut!

21 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The biggest air quality nuisance is other people having stoves on their Boats. 

 

This would be particularly relevant in places like battle bridge basin or other London marinas. 

 

I'm getting a feeling the OP Boat is not moored on the towpath. 

 

 

You are right. 

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

= not moored on the towpath

 

Or anywhere else !

I have been clear from the start I am starting a feasibility study for a brand new boat. I am however a current Narrowboat owner. 

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

= not moored on the towpath

 

Or anywhere else !

I have been clear from the start I am starting a feasibility study for a brand new boat. I am however a current Narrowboat owner. 

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

= not moored on the towpath

 

Or anywhere else !

I have been clear from the start I am starting a feasibility study for a brand new boat. I am however a current Narrowboat owner. 

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

= not moored on the towpath

 

Or anywhere else !

I have been clear from the start I am starting a feasibility study for a brand new boat. I am however a current Narrowboat owner on a permanent mooring. 

[magnetman]

Thats cleared that up !

 

Interesting project to filter other peoples pollution. 

 

The canal by dint of being a linear hole in the ground is likely to be a polluted area in a city because of the way the bits on each side have been targeted by developers for inappropriate construction of buildings due to the idea that being by water is desirable. 

 

Add to this the boat stoves and traffic pollution and its not a very good environment for someone sensitive about air quality. 

[ditchcrawler]

20 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

 So, all electric (engine, heating, cooking), high levels of insulation, MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier, max solar PV. Accessibility for as we age. 
Examples, contacts, ideas all welcome thank you. 

Most marinas don't have sufficient shore power to support that, most are 16 amp if you are lucky, some may be 32 amp but not easy to find, so domestic cookers are out. To comply with the BSS you require a level of natural ventilation so MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier could well be a problem 

[magnetman]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Most marinas don't have sufficient shore power to support that, most are 16 amp if you are lucky, some may be 32 amp but not easy to find, so domestic cookers are out. To comply with the BSS you require a level of natural ventilation so MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier could well be a problem 

Worth checking that. 

 

I like a bit of air in a Boat so it never came up but I have an idea that ventilation is an advisory not a BS scheme fail. Especially if you have no fuel burning appliances. 

 

 

 

It seems like a generally Good Idea for humans inhabiting a confined space to ensure they have enough oxygen but I think the BS scheme is not that concerned unless other consumers are gobbling up said oxygen at a rate of knots. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Worth checking that. 

 

I like a bit of air in a Boat so it never came up but I have an idea that ventilation is an advisory not a BS scheme fail. Especially if you have no fuel burning appliances. 

 

I'm inclined to suggest ventilation of a confined living space (e.g. inside of a boat) that relies on a mechanical device powered by electricity is rather a dopey idea unless you can devise a way fo make it fail-safe. Which seems unlikely on the face of it.

[magnetman]

The @IanD mentioned this with the electric boat recently. 

 

 

Just now, MtB said:

 

I'm inclined to suggest ventilation of a confined living space (e.g. inside of a boat) that relies on a mechanical device powered by electricity is rather a dopey idea unless you can devise a way fo make it fail-safe. Which seems unlikely on the face of it.

Yes I did add a bit to my post !

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

I'm inclined to suggest ventilation of a confined living space (e.g. inside of a boat) that relies on a mechanical device powered by electricity is rather a dopey idea unless you can devise a way fo make it fail-safe. Which seems unlikely on the face of it.

And it still wouldn't keep the BSS inspector happy. Although its not a failure it will give hassle 

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I like a bit of air in a Boat so it never came up but I have an idea that ventilation is an advisory not a BS scheme fail. Especially if you have no fuel burning appliances. 

 

 You are of course correct

[magnetman]

My belief is that the BS scheme is not here to bypass the well espoused theory of survival. 

 

Its mostly there to stop terrible explosions on Boats when large groups of school children happen to be passing which can cause lung compression.

In particularly explosive events the children can be propelled away from the Boat in urban areas and be impaled on railings and also cause severe damage to large plate glass windows. 

 

The others were sadly drowned when a group of cyclists with no duty of care collided with them and they all fell orf a bridge over a former gas works canal branch and became trapped in discarded shopping trolleys and weed growth caused by compost lavatory users emptying their urine into the canal. 

 

This is an undesirable outcome 

Thats why the BS scheme doesn't allow you to have the Calor gas bottle in a location where you can easily close the valve after each use. 

[Up-Side-Down]

20 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Thanks for all the comments, I am new to this forum.
To clarify, the proposal is a new build Narrowboat, c45ft length. With a permanent mooring with shore power when required. Part time live aboard, part time cruising, some extended cruises though minimal in winter months.
Objective is to fit out to standards as close as possible equivalent to pasivhaus for housing. 
So, all electric (engine, heating, cooking), high levels of insulation, MVHR with air filtration and dehumidifier, max solar PV. Accessibility for as we age. 
Examples, contacts, ideas all welcome thank you. 

So start looking at marine heat pumps now!

 

Beacon Park Boats – 01873 830240; www.beaconparkboats.com – have an example in a hire boat and they are a very forward-thinking company: this example from their hire fleet is electric btw. They are about twenty minutes away from Goytre Wharf where the Abergavenny & Monmouth Canal Trust, mentioned above, have their electric trip boat moored. I've visited both organisation (twice) in the last year on fact finding missions and both are helpful and knowledgeable. 

[MtB]

 

I think the first bit of research the OP should do is to find out which are the next canals, after the Mon and Brec, in line for getting charging points installed. 

 

Currently it looks as though the Mon and Brec is the only suitable canal for him to cruise the wholly electric boat he plans, with no diesel back-up genny on board. 

 

 

[Andrew Grainger]

35 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

So start looking at marine heat pumps now!

 

Beacon Park Boats – 01873 830240; www.beaconparkboats.com – have an example in a hire boat and they are a very forward-thinking company: this example from their hire fleet is electric btw. They are about twenty minutes away from Goytre Wharf where the Abergavenny & Monmouth Canal Trust, mentioned above, have their electric trip boat moored. I've visited both organisation (twice) in the last year on fact finding missions and both are helpful and knowledgeable. 

Thanks that is helpful. I’m not sure given the very small interior space that a heat pump would be technically viable or desirable providing I can get the insulation and ventilation right. 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Worth checking that. 

 

I like a bit of air in a Boat so it never came up but I have an idea that ventilation is an advisory not a BS scheme fail. Especially if you have no fuel burning appliances. 

 

 

 

It seems like a generally Good Idea for humans inhabiting a confined space to ensure they have enough oxygen but I think the BS scheme is not that concerned unless other consumers are gobbling up said oxygen at a rate of knots. 

I am working with a BSS inspector on this. Don’t think it is an issue with the regs. 

[Up-Side-Down]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Grainger said:

Thanks that is helpful. I’m not sure given the very small interior space that a heat pump would be technically viable or desirable providing I can get the insulation and ventilation right. 

You might be surprised! They don't take up an awful lot of space in an EV and, for those with range anxiety , they have become a 'must' in the winter months I understand!

[Andrew Grainger]

23 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

You might be surprised! They don't take up an awful lot of space in an EV and, for those with range anxiety , they have become a 'must' in the winter months I understand!

2 problems I am aware of. First finding a water source heat pump with a small enough output and second  to work well I am told by a specialist they need a decent heat demand. 

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Andrew Grainger said:

2 problems I am aware of. First finding a water source heat pump with a small enough output and second  to work well I am told by a specialist they need a decent heat demand. 

I looked at using a heat pump (actually a marine AC unit) to heat my boat, and also cool it in summer -- specifically, this one (the biggest 16000BTU version):

 

https://www.frigomar.com/en/products/self-contained-unit-inverter-bldc/

 

Excellent efficiency (almost 5kW maximum output for 1kW of power) and can be throttled down to 25% -- note that it's a blown air unit so you have to run 5" diameter ducting through the boat.

 

The problem is that it uses fresh water from the sea/river/canal and that the minimum temperature for this is +5C to stop it freezing in the heat exchanger -- so fine for most boats at sea, but not the canals in the winter when you *need* the heating... 😞

 

In theory you could use a massive skin tank and fill the system with antifreeze, but the unit will still turn itself off below +5C intake temperature. Also I was told by somebody who tried this (skin tank) that it didn't really work and they had to go back to fresh water intake.

 

Unless you're only ever going to do short cruises away from base (a big battery bank will last up to 2 days) or no more than a couple of hours per day in summer (recharging from solar, but you'll only get about 5kWh per day on a boat that size) you'll need an onboard generator, and cocooned diesel ones are expensive (around £15000 installed). It would be nice to run this on HVO but this isn't widely available on the canals, if at all.

 

Finesse used to reckon that the cost of the electric drive including batteries, inverter, and generator was around £30000 but that was several years ago. Given the price rises I saw during construction of my boat (a couple of grand just for the generator!) I expect this would be closer to £40000 today. They've built a lot of electric (well, series hybrid...) boats and don't cut corners, I can certainly recommend them.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem is that it uses fresh water from the sea/river/canal and that the minimum temperature for this is +5C to stop it freezing in the heat exchanger -- so fine for most boats at sea, but not the canals in the winter when you *need* the heating... 😞

 

We looked at installing a similar system in the 'Cat' but were told that the sea temp roughly in a line (based on land) from Hull to Liverpool is not of a high enough temperature in the Winter to work and, even South of this line temperatures can be below +5c.

 

We were diving off Anglesey in the Summer and just a few feet below the surface we were in 9 degrees C.

[Peanut]

If heat recovery and ventilation is properly designed and specified for the volume of the boat and air change needed then any BSS requirements would completely met.

I saw a very compact heat recovery and ventilation unit by Hitachi, at the Self Build and Renovation Centre in Swindon. The exhibition area gets changed, so it won't be there now, but they may have a link. They also do a day course for 'green' energy, house centred, but all applicable to any use.

The first rule, is to fix the leaky bucket, before spending money on technical fixes

If space is at a premium, there are some high performance insulation materials available, that are thinner than the more common sort, but for a price.

[Willonaboat]

I looked into installing a Kensa Shoebox water source heat pump on our widebeam. We took GU canal water temperture readings at random intervals over the 2022/23 winter at a depth of 20" below the surface and approx two feet out from the toepath (which seemed to represent an approximate average depth/distance where the proposed skin tank would be fitted for the closed-loop heat pump). The bad news was that at numerous points over the winter the measured water temperature was hovering around 3 degrees C, which, as the technical department at Kensa pointed out, was too low. They were also not comfortable with the water at that depth being effectively stagnant, and therefore would eventually freeze as the heat was extracted from the water. The end result was that a water source heat pump was/is not viable on a (shallow) canal with little or no water movement. Kensa have installed heat pumps on boats though - their website has details.

 

We plan to install a MVHR system (no gas, no stove) as the better ones can recover 90+% of the heat that would otherwise passively escape via mushroom vents.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Peanut said:

If heat recovery and ventilation is properly designed and specified for the volume of the boat and air change needed then any BSS requirements would completely met.

I saw a very compact heat recovery and ventilation unit by Hitachi, at the Self Build and Renovation Centre in Swindon. The exhibition area gets changed, so it won't be there now, but they may have a link. They also do a day course for 'green' energy, house centred, but all applicable to any use.

The first rule, is to fix the leaky bucket, before spending money on technical fixes

If space is at a premium, there are some high performance insulation materials available, that are thinner than the more common sort, but for a price.

 

Better than sprayfoam?

[PeterF]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Better than sprayfoam?

Silica aerogel possibly, but then it is a manual cut and fit to the complex boat shape with issues of sealing edges / joins etc.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Silica aerogel possibly, but then it is a manual cut and fit to the complex boat shape with issues of sealing edges / joins etc.

As well as being horrendously expensive it's also flat and not bendable, so problematic on a curved roof or hull sections.

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[manxmike]

I'd be interested to know roughly the size of budget for this boat - so far I can see the cost going up and up with no ceiling in sight. The battery bank alone will be huge to allow for heating and cooking, never mind propulsion.

As was pointed out earlier - electric cars (and boats) are not particularly eco or green, the electricity has to come from somewhere to charge those enormous battery banks, usually from a power station (coal, oil, diesel, nuclear).

Having said which, good luck, even the planning stage will be fascinating.

By the way, some suppliers state their power comes from totally renewable sources - since they all feed into (and therefore out of) the national grid, most of the power available doesn't come from renewables. Unless your supplier has laid in their own cables and you're no longer connected to the national grid!

Edited December 18, 2023 by manxmike
renewable energy

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I'd be interested to know roughly the size of budget for this boat - so far I can see the cost going up and up with no ceiling in sight. The battery bank alone will be huge to allow for heating and cooking, never mind propulsion.

As was pointed out earlier - electric cars (and boats) are not particularly eco or green, the electricity has to come from somewhere to charge those enormous battery banks, usually from a power station (coal, oil, diesel, nuclear).

Having said which, good luck, even the planning stage will be fascinating.

 

Actually cooking takes far less energy than propulsion as well as considerably less power, because you don't cook at full power for eight hours a day. Heating with electric only (not a heat pump) is pretty much impractical especially in winter, this would use several times more energy than electric propulsion.

 

Even without power from solar an electric/hybrid boat is greener than a diesel one because even if all the power comes from a diesel generator it uses less fuel for propulsion because efficiency is higher, typically around half as much (depends on exactly where/how you cruise). If there's any spare energy left over from solar (I expect about 7kWh/day in summer on a 60' boat) then that reduces fuel use further. Against this there's the CO2 burden from the battery manufacture, though to be fair this is only for the extra bank size compared to what you'd have in a diesel boat, not the total.

 

But to be honest the CO2 contribution of boats on CART waters is something like 1000x smaller than cars in the UK -- so even if everyone on boats went 100% green (no diesel at all!) this is only equivalent to reducing the car emissions by 0.1%. So it's OK to see them as at least a bit green on a personal level, but electric canal boats are not going to make a jot of difference to even UK emissions.

 

Depending on builder and internal fitout, I'd be surprised if the OP could get the 48' boat they want for less than £200k, and it could well be more.

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Peanut said:

If heat recovery and ventilation is properly designed and specified for the volume of the boat and air change needed then any BSS requirements would completely met.

 

I think we all agree that ventilation is only advisory for the BSS but no matter how well matched, designed and specified it wont meet the BSS requirements as its powered and not free ventilation 

[Andrew Grainger]

42 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I'd be interested to know roughly the size of budget for this boat - so far I can see the cost going up and up with no ceiling in sight. The battery bank alone will be huge to allow for heating and cooking, never mind propulsion.

As was pointed out earlier - electric cars (and boats) are not particularly eco or green, the electricity has to come from somewhere to charge those enormous battery banks, usually from a power station (coal, oil, diesel, nuclear).

Having said which, good luck, even the planning stage will be fascinating.

By the way, some suppliers state their power comes from totally renewable sources - since they all feed into (and therefore out of) the national grid, most of the power available doesn't come from renewables. Unless your supplier has laid in their own cables and you're no longer connected to the national grid!

Budget has yet to be established and is subject to the feasibility, that said I am realistic, this is not going to be cheap and it is possible it turns out to be simply uneconomic! 
Batteries will be costly but are getting cheaper all the time. 
As for grid power, some suppliers are much better than others eg Octopus. Also I have bought a  crowdfunded share of a large onshore wind farm and am installing solar and batteries at our home which together is sufficient to cover all my electricity needs, home and boat, with some surplus solar to export. 

[ditchcrawler]

48 minutes ago, manxmike said:

As was pointed out earlier - electric cars (and boats) are not particularly eco or green, the electricity has to come from somewhere to charge those enormous battery banks, usually from a power station (coal, oil, diesel, nuclear).

 

Over 50% or UK electric these days is green and often no coal, but I suspect its still being burn but the electricity not being used .