Swapping boats?

[phillarrow]

Hi all,

 

First post on here and I suspect this is going to be a very silly question to those with experience, but it's something I just can't get my head around...

 

What happens when you buy a new boat?

 

What I mean is, if you live aboard a boat and want to buy a new one, do you need the money to buy the new one first, then sell the old one? Do new boat builders take part exchange? Is there a 'chain' like with buying houses? Also, what do you do with your stuff, how do you swap it between boats - is there a 24 period where you can own both boats in order to swap it all over?

 

The context for these questions is that my partner and me are planning on buying a boat for continuous cruising when we retire.

Our current plan is to buy a second hand boat, try it for a year and then, if we feel sure it's what we want to do for the next 10-15 years, get a new boat built to our exact specifications.

The reason to start with a second hand boat is twofold. Firstly, to make sure it's what we want to do, and depreciation will be less with a second hand boat than in the first few years of a new boat. Secondly, so we can work out exactly what we want in terms of layout, storage etc. and then get the exact boat built to suit our needs based on what we've learned over the first year.

With my pension and savings, we will be able to afford to buy a boat outright (i.e. no need for a loan) but we wouldn't be able to afford to then buy a brand new one in a year's time unless/until we have sold the first boat. How does this work in practice when people move from one boat to another?

[David Mack]

If you are getting the new boat built to your specifications you will be making stage payments to the builder through the course of the build, so you will need to have (almost) all of the money available before you sell the first boat. So if you don't have it in cash, that probably means some sort of loan which you repay once the first boat is sold.

[Alan de Enfield]

Generally you need to rent a container (for your 'stuff') and move into a rented place / flat.

 

The problem is that it can take several months to sell a boat depending on availability of surveyors and negotiations about reducing price because 'the paint is the wrong colour' etc. So you will have no idea when your boat will actually sell.

 

You should have a fair idea when you new-build will be completed  but you will have paid for it before it is finished as most builders need 'stage payments' during the build so you could need the money from your sale many months before your new boat is ready.

 

Some boat brokers will "we buy any boat" and buy on the day for cash - BUT you will probably only get 75% of its actual market value, only you can decide if that is a cost saving compared to paying out for a bridging load for 'several' months,

Edited November 27, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

 

And your timescales are unrealistic. Even if you have worked out exactly what you want from boat no. 2 after a year afloat on boat no. 1, it will still take a further year or more to get boat no. 2 designed, specified and built. Unless you buy an off-the-shelf boat, but then you don't get any input to the design and specification.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

And your timescales are unrealistic. Even if you have worked out exactly what you want from boat no. 2 after a year afloat on boat no. 1, it will still take a further year or more to get boat no. 2 designed, specified and built. Unless you buy an off-the-shelf boat, but then you don't get any input to the design and specification.

 

Depending on the builder (who, how busy they are, length of order book...) and how much you want done differently to "normal", from starting specification discussions to final delivery is unlikely to be as short as a year for a custom-built boat. On top of this there's often also a considerable delay from paying a deposit to book a build slot to construction actually starting. Total time from deposit to delivery was over two years for mine, which I gather is not unusual...

[mrsmelly]

Its an impossible one to answer. The combinations are too many. Over 32 years of living aboard on 8 different boats one brand new we did all manner of moves. We never borrowed money but sometimes would move like a house move. For instance when we bought a second hand four year old Hudson we moored beside the owners just built brand new Hudson whilst he moved his stuff over from the one we were buying. Other moves we just spent a couple of nights or so in other accomodation. The new one was built/fitted and I paid from money I had whilst living on my other boat, Any and which way can and has been done by people over the years.

[phillarrow]

Thanks folks, I hadn't factored in the staged payments, that certainly will have an impact on how we can go about things. We were planning on keeping the house and renting it out whilst we live aboard, but if we still intend to start with a second hand boat, then we would need to either move back onto land for a while, or take the plunge and sell the house to finance the new boat. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Boat builder time is a flexible concept. Rare for a new build to be finished when they say it will be. If you have to arrange alternative accommodation while the boat is being built, be prepared for delays, which can affect rental cost, or friends/relations goodwill, depending on where you are staying.

[phillarrow]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 

And your timescales are unrealistic. Even if you have worked out exactly what you want from boat no. 2 after a year afloat on boat no. 1, it will still take a further year or more to get boat no. 2 designed, specified and built. Unless you buy an off-the-shelf boat, but then you don't get any input to the design and specification.

Thanks David but I don't think I said in my first post that I was intending to move aboard a new boat after a year? What I meant was that after cruising for a year we'd have a better idea of exactly what we want out of our long-term boat, and so would start the process of commissioning a bespoke boat at around that time.

[Tracy D'arth]

The easier way is to buy the first 2nd hand boat and keep looking at other boats for sale. Then when you find that there is a good 2nd hand boat that you fall in love with, you buy it and forget about waiting 3 years for a new build and then another year getting all the new boat problems sorted out.

Never had a new boat, frankly I would not want one, there are loads of used boats that I would rather have. The have more charisma, patina, personality and  interest than a new build that I could not realistically afford.

[LadyG]

52 minutes ago, phillarrow said:

We were planning on keeping the house and renting it out whilst we live aboard, but if we still intend to start with a second hand boat, then we would need to either move back onto land for a while, or take the plunge and sell the house to finance the new boat. 

It's a good idea to have bricks and mortar, renting out brings income, and you still have the capital which should appreciate.

Buying a good secondhand boat should be way forward IMHO. There is no need to replace with a new boat unless the first one has a major flaw. Otherwise it can be maintained with a bit of effort. Things like paintwork can be done to a professional standard while you take a two week break.

Upgrading the inside can be done in a similar manner, the living area, the galley, and the sleeping area can all be done in stages. Most boats are fairly standard, and a craftsman fitted job will not date. My advice is to research, only look at well built boats, maybe ten years old, and find a good one. 

Of course I did not do this, I bought the only one I saw, but I was in a hurry, and it all worked out, pretty much.

I don't find it difficult to adapt to boat living, and though I would have rather had a craftsman fitted boat it's not the end of the world, and of course i did not know if living onboard would suit.

Livjng  in a house is also a compromise, probably more than boats in the long term.

PS lots of people admire the style of my boat, as @Tracy D'arth says, an older boat has adapted to its life. 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by LadyG

[phillarrow]

43 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It's a good idea to have bricks and mortar, renting out brings income, and you still have the capital which should appreciate.

Buying a good secondhand boat should be way forward IMHO. There is no need to replace with a new boat unless the first one has a major flaw. Otherwise it can be maintained with a bit of effort. Things like paintwork can be done to a professional standard while you take a two week break.

Upgrading the inside can be done in a similar manner, the living area, the galley, and the sleeping area can all be done in stages. Most boats are fairly standard, and a craftsman fitted job will not date. My advice is to research, only look at well built boats, maybe ten years old, and find a good one. 

Of course I did not do this, I bought the only one I saw, but I was in a hurry, and it all worked out, pretty much.

I don't find it difficult to adapt to boat living, and though I would have rather had a craftsman fitted boat it's not the end of the world, and of course i did not know if living onboard would suit.

Livjng  in a house is also a compromise, probably more than boats in the long term.

PS lots of people admire the style of my boat, as @Tracy D'arth says, an older boat has adapted to its life. 

 

That's really good advice, thanks. I think there needs to be a bit of a mindset change for me in all honesty. In my mind, the idea of updating the galley feels a bit like throwing good money after bad, but that's where I need to change my thinking. I've been thinking of boats in the same way as cars and caravans, i.e. finite and expendable and not worth the trouble or cost of updating. What you're describing is a bit more like treating it as a house - once you've got the 'home' make it yours and then keep on updating it and decorating it as necessary.

 

One of the drivers behind working towards a new boat is that this is what my partner's parents did when they retired and I know how much she loved visiting them on it, so I was thinking about giving her what they'd had. However, things were a lot cheaper back then! 

[Peanut]

I wouldn't underestimate the challenge of selling your boat, boats which are lived on get far harder wear than hobby boats, and have far more stuff on board.  Having somewhere to stash your stuff, to empty the boat, and prepare it for sale would be a good idea. As mentioned, a container or other storage would be needed. You are unlikely to achieve a good price if the boat is cluttered and not been cleaned, or refreshed for sale. That is difficult if you are still living on it. Buyers can be put off by a pile of your priceless possessions, laundry, and your unmade bed.  You are selling a dream.

You could do this after you purchase the new one, but not if you need the proceeds of the sale to finance the new one.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Boat builder time is a flexible concept. Rare for a new build to be finished when they say it will be. If you have to arrange alternative accommodation while the boat is being built, be prepared for delays, which can affect rental cost, or friends/relations goodwill, depending on where you are staying.

 

Mine certainly wasn't... 😉

 

If you can find an existing boat that does what you want it'll be considerably cheaper and available a lot sooner than having a new boat built, especially if funds are limited.

 

If you want something unusual (like I did) and can afford the cost then a new build makes more sense, but don't expect it to be ready when you first expected, and expect it to cost more than predicted -- that way you won't be disappointed... 🙂

Edited November 27, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Mine certainly wasn't... 😉

 

But anything can be finished 'on time' if you give an extended lead time.

 

Didn't you say yours took 2 years to build ?

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But anything can be finished 'on time' if you give an extended lead time.

 

Didn't you say yours took 2 years to build ?

It took about 18 months from starting the hull, and that was longer than predicted. Delays in materials and equipment partly due to Ukraine didn't help (or with the cost), but when you're doing things differently it always takes longer than expected because one change leads to another...

 

I'm not complaining about this, it's similar to what I do for a job and I'm well aware that anything new or non-standard always takes longer than expected or predicted, and I didn't have any hard deadlines to meet -- but many people aren't as flexible or understanding... 😉

Edited November 27, 2023 by IanD

[Jen-in-Wellies]

A failing of Einstein's theories of relativity is that they don't describe the phenomenon of "boat time". 😀

Clever bloke he was, but he never went boating, or got something done at a boat yard.

[Stroudwater1]

27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A failing of Einstein's theories of relativity is that they don't describe the phenomenon of "boat time". 😀

Clever bloke he was, but he never went boating, or got something done at a boat yard.

It appears Einstein  was a keen yachtsman Jen 🤣. Agree it’s all relative.  

 

https://www.yachting.com/en-gb/news/albert-einstein-the-passionate-sailor

 

 

[rusty69]

30 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

It appears Einstein  was a keen yachtsman Jen 🤣. Agree it’s all relative.  

 

https://www.yachting.com/en-gb/news/albert-einstein-the-passionate-sailor

 

 

Yes, and also the originator of some famous quotes:-

 

• If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
• Sailing is a bit like refusing to eat bacon. 
• A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
• You can't blame gravity for falling in love.
  and
• Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.

Edited November 28, 2023 by rusty69

[Peanut]

It's a bit like, bus time, or train time, they go backwards in time, whether you are waiting or travelling.

[manxmike]

I laugh at some of the pictures I see advertising boats for sale, untidy, cluttered, dirty dishes in the galley and on any available flat surface, unmade beds, clothes strewn about. I can only assume the wife has said "sell the damn thing" so he's deliberately taken the worst photos possible. "Well I posted it on line darling, but no-one seems interested"

[Didne]

7 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I can only assume the wife has said "sell the damn thing" so he's deliberately taken the worst photos possible. "Well I posted it on line darling, but no-one seems interested"

OR

 

I can only assume the husband has said "sell the damn thing" so she's deliberately taken the worst photos possible. "Well I posted it on line darling, but no-one seems interested

 

 

[DandV]

We have friends who commisioned a new build after extensive reaearch.

Premium hull builder and a competant boat bulder.

They had the boat for seven seasons, doing 500 engine hours a year, cruising the network. But they did have a list of things that had to get fixed or replaced. 

A multitude of battery problems.

A new calorifier, a new toilet, both after irrepairable leaks.

A stern tube that required replacement to stem leakage. And a replacement bowthruster.

They even  had to have it repainted after premature paint failure over mill scale.

 

We bought a seven year old boat that we had for five years, again cruising the network for 500 engine hours a year.

But it needed nothing more then routine servicing , or repairs that I could accomplish myself.

The only thing that required replacement in our time, were the deckboards above the engine. A  local boatyard cut them to size and we picked them up as we cruised past. 

The paint was still gleaming when we sold. 

 

But they were the very same boat. We bought it after it had been very thoroughly debugged.

 

 

[IanD]

7 hours ago, DandV said:

We have friends who commisioned a new build after extensive reaearch.

Premium hull builder and a competant boat bulder.

They had the boat for seven seasons, doing 500 engine hours a year, cruising the network. But they did have a list of things that had to get fixed or replaced. 

A multitude of battery problems.

A new calorifier, a new toilet, both after irrepairable leaks.

A stern tube that required replacement to stem leakage. And a replacement bowthruster.

They even  had to have it repainted after premature paint failure over mill scale.

 

We bought a seven year old boat that we had for five years, again cruising the network for 500 engine hours a year.

But it needed nothing more then routine servicing , or repairs that I could accomplish myself.

The only thing that required replacement in our time, were the deckboards above the engine. A  local boatyard cut them to size and we picked them up as we cruised past. 

The paint was still gleaming when we sold. 

 

But they were the very same boat. We bought it after it had been very thoroughly debugged.

 

 

Absolutely, if you can find a boat a few years old in good nick that does what you want it'll cost you considerably less and is likely to be less trouble than a brand new one.

 

A new build boat is an expensive option, and in my view only worth it if you want something that isn't available secondhand -- which was the case for me...

[Dave_P]

On 27/11/2023 at 16:40, Alan de Enfield said:

Generally you need to rent a container (for your 'stuff') and move into a rented place / flat.

 

The problem is that it can take several months to sell a boat depending on availability of surveyors and negotiations about reducing price because 'the paint is the wrong colour' etc. So you will have no idea when your boat will actually sell.

 

You should have a fair idea when you new-build will be completed  but you will have paid for it before it is finished as most builders need 'stage payments' during the build so you could need the money from your sale many months before your new boat is ready.

 

Some boat brokers will "we buy any boat" and buy on the day for cash - BUT you will probably only get 75% of its actual market value, only you can decide if that is a cost saving compared to paying out for a bridging load for 'several' months,

I sold my boat a few months back.  I put the advert on Apollo Duck on the Sunday night.  First viewing was on Tuesday but it wasn't the right boat for them.  Second viewing was on Wednesday and they offered asking price right there and then and paid deposit.  Slipway and survey was on Friday.  Survey results came on the following tuesday - all fine.  They came and picked up the boat on the Saturday and paid the balance.  From placing the advert to the boat gone, 13 days.  Boats should not take months to sell if they're well prepared for sale, advertised honestly, and priced correctly.

 

My only regret is paying for a whole month's advert on Apollo Duck.