Gas-free boat … any good for Constant Cruising

[JungleJames]

4 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Despite the quote being apparently not too bad have you tried looking for a boat already fitted with gas and a Heritage style range? If you look under heritage on apolloduck you will find  narrowboats with them fitted. 
Quotes can be inclined to go up once the fitter looks more closely but Im sure you realise that ? 

Heritage units are diesel or electricity.

So you wouldn't need gas unless using it for heating/ water.

 

In fact, I'm not even sure where the mention if Heritage comes from.

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. If the lithium charging set up is spot on then it will look after the batteries. That really means an installation that ignores US red neck blogs and use someone who really understands it all. With the correct set up I would suggest it is many times more difficult to wreck lithiums than lead acids. Long life from lead acids require hard work and a good deal of knowledge.

 

2. The Travelpower is really a mini 240 AC power station or genitor that can supply your AC loads when the engine is running. If there is no AC load switched on then the Travelpower will generate zero electricity, so effectively turned off, but note it might be used to power the charger for the lithium batteries, and if so it can't really be turned off.

 

I think the "wear out the engine" thing comes from an appalling marinisation by Beta and customers ignoring the instructions about minimum running speed. Regular inspecting how tight the pulley is on the crankshaft should minimise the danger of wrecking the engine.

 

All in my view, there are probably other views.

From @nicknorman last time a lithium install for a newbie was being discussed:

 

^^^ If this is a new build then you might as well get the charging side sorted out properly from the outset. I would recommend Ed Shiers at Four Counties Marine Servies. Top bloke, very competent and specialises in Lithium installs. https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/lithium-batteries/

 

[Stroudwater1]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

Heritage units are diesel or electricity.

So you wouldn't need gas unless using it for heating/ water.

 

In fact, I'm not even sure where the mention if Heritage comes from.

Apologies, I misread, indeed the OP wants a solid fuel stove! 

 

Re Lithium it seems the boat already has them? Perhaps I have misread that too....

 

Its not clear they would be a necessary investment at first if not fitted as the OP states they are not using for livaboard initially. As long as you dont use electricity wilfully lead acids are perfectly fine and a fair bit more straightforward it seems. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

39 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

As long as you dont use electricity wilfully lead acids are perfectly fine and a fair bit more straightforward it seems. 

 

I don't totally agree with that. To maximise life, lead acids need to be kept at as close as possible to 100% charged all the time. The deeper the discharge and the longer it sits, the more sulphation (loss of capacity) will take place. Given that to fully charge a LA bank takes many, many hours, however powerful the charge source is because within half an hour or so the batteries themselves will start to limit the charging current so well before they are fully charged they will only accept a few amps. They also self discharge, so without any owner intervention they just get more and more discharged and more and more sulphated. Then we get to the very limited cyclic life compared with lithiums, which in itself will result in eventual battery failure. Some types need regular topping up, even more so if you fit equipment designed to give faster charging.

 

In short, the owner needs to carefully monitor the state of charge and ensure the bank is fully recharged on a regular basis. There are instruments that can help, but most seem to have some limitations that the owners needs to understand if they are not going to be misled.

 

As long as the charging voltage of a Li system is carefully controlled, they will take the maximum current the charge source can deliver - to the extent that steps have to be taken to ensure the charge source does not overheat and burn out. However, on a decent Li system the charging voltage and maximum charging current will be automatically controlled, so the owner does not have to worry. The self discharge is very low and I have seen no figures for the equivalent of LA sulphation, so capacity is maintained, even if the battery is left discharged (no fully) for long periods. Then the cyclic capacity of Lis is absolutely vast compared with LAs. The fact Lis do not take it upon themselves to limit the charging current means they recharge very fast indeed. It seems with a typical amount of solar they easily within the day with some left over.

 

In short, get the voltage control right and they are almost fit and forget. Charging current (at the correct voltage) is only to protect the charge source.

 

I think the reasons you think lead acids are more straightforward is because you are familiar with them and there is an awful lot of advice about describing how to "home brew" a suitable Li charging system, which is confusing to say the least, but nowadays commercial products are readily available (be it at a price) that does the whole charging control thing for you.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Tony1]

 

3 hours ago, IanD said:

From @nicknorman last time a lithium install for a newbie was being discussed:

 

^^^ If this is a new build then you might as well get the charging side sorted out properly from the outset. I would recommend Ed Shiers at Four Counties Marine Servies. Top bloke, very competent and specialises in Lithium installs. https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/lithium-batteries/

 

 

As I said, its a real pity you dont have a local expert to come and check the boat out for you- in all its aspects, not just electrics or gas etc. 

This is the general point with all boats of making sure that the stuff you are paying for actually works ok, otherwise you might have large bills afterwards to fix things. 

Also, I presume that if you press ahead with your interest, you would be getting a professional survey anyway, right? 

 

I would reiterate Ian's point about getting an expert like Ed Shiers to look over the lithium install, just in case there are any issues with any of it.

I would definitely ask if there is documentation/details/receipts etc for the lithium and travelpower install. E.g. was it all done from new, or was it part of a DIY fitout by the owner? Many DIY fitouts are excellent of course, but its good to know either way.

There has been talk that in a few years we may see new BSS regulations requiring lithiums to be installed by a professional (whatever that really means). That change may not happen- but if it does, you won't have to worry about it, as long as you have a document proving they were professionally installed. 

Also, was the travelpower new or used when it was installed? You might be able to knock a few quid off the asking price here or there with those sort of details. 

Which reminds me, it's been said on here before that if the fitout is done by the owner, they are responsible for getting an RCD certificate for the boat- so you should probably ask to see that, if there is one. But again, that would go for any boat. People seem to view the RCD certificate differently in terms of its importance, but its worth knowing if there is one. And if not, you can take it from there, e.g. maybe negotiate a further discount. 

 

No matter whether you've got reliable quotes for the gas and stove installs, if I were in your shoes, I would only consider this boat if the price is right.

For me personally, the cost of the boat plus the cost of the additional installs needs to be at least £5k cheaper than an equivalent fully equipped boat of the same age, quality, and condition- and preferably more than 5k.

I think you should be getting a bit of a 'risk discount' with this one, because you are taking a chance that the installs will both go as planned and on budget, with no snags/delays.

Also ensure the quotes are fixed, not 'subject to having a closer look'- and get them in writing. 

They should include making good any damage to cupboards/walls etc that might be done by the installs, and leaving the boat interior as it was.

It sounds obvious, but the guy who did my stove was about to walk away leaving exposed bits of woodwork that had been half ripped out to make space, until I reminded him that his quote covered everything being made good after the stove install.

Minor details can catch you out- e.g. my SF stove quote included a chimney that would have come out of the roof at a slight sideways angle, which I think looks a bit rubbish.  So I had to add on more money to get the chimney/collar adjusted so that chimney was vertical. 

 

You might end up with a boat you really love at a great price, and with a brand new SF stove and gas cooker, which all sounds great.

But its equally likely you'll have some unforeseen snags and have to fork out a few more grand before its all done the way you want it- so you should go into it aware of the risks, and with enough fall back funds to deal with unexpected snags during the installs, or new fixes that might be spotted as you find out more about the boat.  

There are many other points to think about when buying any used boat (surveys, offers, the overall process, hull condition, recent blacking, engine service records, you name it)- but its one step at a time I guess.

 

One of the next steps if you proceed will be to ask here for recommendations for DEFRA compliant stoves. Getting the right stove is a whole other question! 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Tony1

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I think you should be getting a bit of a 'risk discount' with this one, because you are taking a chance that the installs will both go as planned and on budget, with no snags/delays.

 

I not sure that is 'good advice'. The owner could easily say "It is how I wanted it, why should I pay (give a reduction) because it is not what you want, if it is not what you want why buy it ?"

 

It's like buying a house and saying the house owner I want a reduction because I'm going to have to rip out those Victorian hall floor tiles and put down some modern laminate flooring - they are 'orrible.

 

You buy what you can see, you just ensure that you have sufficient money left to change it to suit your taste - don't expect the seller to fund your changes.

[Tony1]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I not sure that is 'good advice'. The owner could easily say "It is how I wanted it, why should I pay (give a reduction) because it is not what you want, if it is not what you want why buy it ?"

 

It's like buying a house and saying the house owner I want a reduction because I'm going to have to rip out those Victorian hall floor tiles and put down some modern laminate flooring - they are 'orrible.

 

You buy what you can see, you just ensure that you have sufficient money left to change it to suit your taste - don't expect the seller to fund your changes.

 

I think you make a fair point, but for me personally, this is a matter of perspective. 

It could be argued that the market for gas-free boats is very limited at the moment, and there will not be a lot of interest in this boat. Most of the interest that exists will be from people considering installing gas. 

So at least to an extent, I think the price of the boat should reflect that situation- assuming that the seller wants to get a sale in a reasonable time.

But if they are prepared to wait for a 'gas-free' buyer to come along, then yes- they could hold out for a higher price, based on your reasoning. 

 

So I think it partly depends on how willing the seller is to accept offers from people who are interested in installing gas- because those buyers will be viewing that boat with a significantly different perspective than a buyer who wants to be gas-free. And the perspective of those buyers does involve some degree of uncertainty and risk. 

 

To borrow your analogy, this might be similar to someone selling a house that has a septic tank, instead of being plumbed into mains sewage.

That's a more extreme example, perhaps, but just as an illustration- this boat lacks two features that perhaps 90% of boaters currently consider to be pretty much essential (whether that is right or wrong is not the point I'm making). 

If the price of the boat does not make allowance for the risks associated with installing those two features, then many buyers will just walk away. 

You can see form the replies here- the vast majority have simply said:  "walk away/why take the chance on it/find a boat that already has what you need" etc. 

My guess is that very few people will be interested in this boat, and that's one reason why I personally would want to build in a 'risk discount' of at least five thousand, unless there were other features that really drew me to the boat. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Tony1

[Didne]

You guys are amazing … thank you so much for all your generosity with taking the time to reply and sharing your knowledge and experience … it’s a huge learning curve … I’m reading and rereading and trying to take it all in …

 

this business about having a ‘local expert to check it out’ … is that a service that anyone offerers when you view the boat in the way that you can pay an AA man to check out a second hand car you’re thinking of buying ? … or is there no middle way until you go whole hog and have a survey ? … though I’m not sure that a survey covers the electrical system anyway ? …

 

Point taken that cost for alterations may suddenly get bigger and end up more complicated … it was Dave Freeman did the gas fitting and solid fuel stove quote for me … he got access to the boat (I wasn’t there … I haven’t met him) but as well as being a boat gas fitter I know he’s also a surveyor and also a BSS examiner so I figure he knows his stuff …. 
 

xxx

 

 

[MtB]

52 minutes ago, Didne said:

it was Dave Freeman did the gas fitting and solid fuel stove quote for me … he got access to the boat (I wasn’t there … I haven’t met him) but as well as being a boat gas fitter I know he’s also a surveyor and also a BSS examiner so I figure he knows his stuff …. 

 

Yes he's quite knowledgeable but is he Gas Safe Registered for boats? 

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Didne said:

You guys are amazing … thank you so much for all your generosity with taking the time to reply and sharing your knowledge and experience … it’s a huge learning curve … I’m reading and rereading and trying to take it all in …

 

this business about having a ‘local expert to check it out’ … is that a service that anyone offerers when you view the boat in the way that you can pay an AA man to check out a second hand car you’re thinking of buying ? … or is there no middle way until you go whole hog and have a survey ? … though I’m not sure that a survey covers the electrical system anyway ? …

 

Point taken that cost for alterations may suddenly get bigger and end up more complicated … it was Dave Freeman did the gas fitting and solid fuel stove quote for me … he got access to the boat (I wasn’t there … I haven’t met him) but as well as being a boat gas fitter I know he’s also a surveyor and also a BSS examiner so I figure he knows his stuff …. 
 

xxx

 

 

 

 

If I've understood it right, you're looking for a reasonably knowledgeable person to come and have a general look over the boat, and check that all the systems seem to be working ok, so that you can decide whether its worth proceeding further with your interest? 

 

An expert like Tony Brooks would be able to tell very quickly if there were any significant issues with the boat, and there are several others on here you could trust to do a good assessment of a boat- e.g. Tracey. But not everyone will able/willing to travel to the boats location when you need them. 

 

I'm wondering if the easiest thing would be to get your man Dave Freeman to do a sort of pre-survey assessment, whilst its in the water? 

If you explain to him what kind of inspection you want doing, he may agree to take a look at it, but even that will probably set you back a couple of hundred. 

 

But bear in mind, normally you would make an offer that was 'subject to survey'. 

If the survey then reveals some significant issues needing repair etc, you can negotiate a price reduction from your initial offer, based roughly on how much if costs to fix the things found in the survey. So there is a sort of contingency within the buying process, to help you pay for unexpected issues that can arise with any boat purchase. And if anything really bad is found in the survey, you can just walk away. 

 

Because the lithium batteries are probably going to cost at least £1500 to replace if they are damaged, I would make my offer also 'subject to batteries and charging system being in satisfactory condition'.

I would want to make sure that they were assessed before completing a purchase, and it may be Mr Freeman is able to do that as part of a survey. 

 

A specialist like Ed Shiers is also ideal for that bit- but because he's very good, he's also very very busy. 

 

Perhaps if you can share the general area of the boat (to within say 20-30 miles?), someone on the forum may even volunteer to come and do your initial 'once-over' check of the boat, if it turns out that Mr Freeman is reluctant to do that for some reason

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Tony1

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes he's quite knowledgeable but is he Gas Safe Registered for boats? 

 

Yes he is. He undertook my last BSC examination. Friendly and knowledgeable guy who fits out his his own boats. He has made a lovely job of converting his ex-fuel boat Dextra into a liveaboard/leisure boat.

[LadyG]

At some stage in the process, the prospective purchaser has to bite the bullet, does she really want this boat, or looking for something which better fits her needs.

The whole purchase process is unlike buying a car or buying a house. One has to accept the vendor is not always going to be open to the downsides, or  mention major faults, but in general I believe most sales go through without drama. 

However, in my opinion its best to start with a list of requirements, my essentials were good boat, well maintaned, good engine, good stove,  supplementary heating, good paintwork, well laid out and suited to cc.

Nice to have a particular stove, but it's a nice to have.

Nice to have good batteries, solar, etc., but generally one will not charge the other six months of the year, on a narrowboat. 

It's not easy to keep batteries fully charged for six months of the year, some sort of generation eg running the engine will be required.

I am pretty minimalist with respect to electricity usage, but struggle to keep batteries happy if the sun does not shine sufficiently.

I don't use any 240v appliances. 

OP could ask  Dave Freeeman if he thinks it's worth progressing with a survey, and if the boat be a reasonable buy, assuming the survey is positive, ie no major engineering  or other costs .

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by LadyG

[Didne]

Hmmm … well … right …  Thank You Guys … you’ve made some really good points for me to consider … but it looks like it’s all mute now anyway … went on the boat again on Saturday for a second viewing … the whole point of looking at boats of this size is to enable elderly mum to come for holidays and days out … which means needing space to accommodate her plus a couple of crew to help with her since I cannot look after her and the boat at the same time … having hitherto been all enthusiast, everything changed once she got on the boat … too old, too tired, likes her own bed, nothing to do (huh?!?) … then on Sunday we went out for a trip on a little day boat and all I got from mum the entire time we were out on the water was ‘when are we going home? … can we go home now?’ … hmmm … well … not much fun for either of us … at least I’ve found out before its too late … and if that’s the way it’s going to be then I’m starting again and this time I’ll be looking at smaller boats, just big enough for me and nobody else … I had people lining up to take care of her on boat trips … I’m sure they’ll be a whole lot less eager to do it at home … so back to square one ... disappointed to say the least … 

 

I know you’re all eager to see the boat for yourselves so here it is … still for sale if you’re interested … xxx

 

‘Moonbeams and Stardust’ … she’s moored up at Fradley Junction 

 

https://www.nationwideboatsales.co.uk/shop/moonbeams-stardust/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peanut]

I see your mum, won't have a bedroom of her own?

[Didne]

yes … i was beginning to have misgivings about that too … not that it matters now …

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 21/11/2023 at 09:34, Didne said:

 

‘Moonbeams and Stardust’ … she’s moored up at Fradley Junction 

 

https://www.nationwideboatsales.co.uk/shop/moonbeams-stardust/

 
 One of the worst internal layouts I’ve seen, I very much doubt this boat has been CCing much, Will be for sale for a while. Maybe the posters on here that were saying not to walk away and get gas/solid fuel fire/lithium/solar fitted will be arranging viewings as I type, what a bargain 😂😂

 I’m glad you’ve walked away from this one and good look with your search👍

Edited November 22, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[doratheexplorer]

Why would anyone build a boat of that size, with no actual bedroom and the kitchen and lounge at opposite ends of the boat? 

 

It's not a reverse layout, it's a perverse layout!

[JungleJames]

On 21/11/2023 at 04:34, Didne said:

Hmmm … well … right …  Thank You Guys … you’ve made some really good points for me to consider … but it looks like it’s all mute now anyway … went on the boat again on Saturday for a second viewing … the whole point of looking at boats of this size is to enable elderly mum to come for holidays and days out … which means needing space to accommodate her plus a couple of crew to help with her since I cannot look after her and the boat at the same time … having hitherto been all enthusiast, everything changed once she got on the boat … too old, too tired, likes her own bed, nothing to do (huh?!?) … then on Sunday we went out for a trip on a little day boat and all I got from mum the entire time we were out on the water was ‘when are we going home? … can we go home now?’ … hmmm … well … not much fun for either of us … at least I’ve found out before its too late … and if that’s the way it’s going to be then I’m starting again and this time I’ll be looking at smaller boats, just big enough for me and nobody else … I had people lining up to take care of her on boat trips … I’m sure they’ll be a whole lot less eager to do it at home … so back to square one ... disappointed to say the least … 

 

I know you’re all eager to see the boat for yourselves so here it is … still for sale if you’re interested … xxx

 

‘Moonbeams and Stardust’ … she’s moored up at Fradley Junction 

 

https://www.nationwideboatsales.co.uk/shop/moonbeams-stardust/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yikes.

I wonder if your mum was actually trying to do you a favour without being quite so blunt. 

Can I ask. Which of you was sleeping in the kitchen?!!!

 

If that is deemed a good price, then it's like that because of the layout and bland, cheap and boring decor.

To me though, that is not a good price. 

Half it and I still wouldn't touch it, as it doesn't even have a decent shell that you could rip out and start again.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

31 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

Yikes.

I wonder if your mum was actually trying to do you a favour without being quite so blunt. 

Can I ask. Which of you was sleeping in the kitchen?!!!

 

If that is deemed a good price, then it's like that because of the layout and bland, cheap and boring decor.

To me though, that is not a good price. 

Half it and I still wouldn't touch it, as it doesn't even have a decent shell that you could rip out and start again.

Yet you were one of the posters telling her not to dismiss it and it could be a good deal if fitted with what she needed😂 maybe if the details were put on in the first post the thread would of been a lot shorter and more straight to the point as to what a non suitable boat this was. I would say not just for CCing but just as a Narrowboat to own.

Edited November 22, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[GUMPY]

Bet your money it never went anywhere🤔

 

Notes: Axon Propellor

 

🤣

[JungleJames]

5 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yet you were one of the posters telling her not to dismiss it and it could be a good deal if fitted with what she needed😂 maybe if the details were put on in the first post the thread would of been a lot shorter and more straight to the point as to what a non suitable boat this was. I would say not just for CCing but just as a Narrowboat to own.

Well there is the argument, that as I kept saying the nay sayers didn't have all the facts at first, that agreed, neither did I.

But did any of us really expect this?

I just assumed, ok, you like it. So don't rule it out. But this is beyond my wildest nightmares!!!

5 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Bet your money it never went anywhere🤔

 

Notes: Axon Propellor

 

🤣

It does look extremely tidy and unused!!!

Didn't Didne say at the beginning that it had low hours on the engine?

 

I think the way of getting most of your money back on this boat, is to strip it for parts. Someone will take the engine and gearbox!!

 

I do feel quite bad. Didne liked this boat, and here we all are chastising it!

I do think she has had a lucky escape though. A couple of months down the line, and I think she'd have regretted it.

Just like I reckon the current owners soon regretted it! Hence it's low use.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

6 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

Well there is the argument, that as I kept saying the nay sayers didn't have all the facts at first, that agreed, neither did I.

But did any of us really expect this?

I just assumed, ok, you like it. So don't rule it out. But this is beyond my wildest nightmares!!!

Yes agree it’s bad, self fitout by someone who had no intention of leaving a marina, I think the clue was when the op said it had electric fires, so glad she’s moved on from this.👍

[JungleJames]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes agree it’s bad, self fitout by someone who had no intention of leaving a marina, I think the clue was when the op said it had electric fires, so glad she’s moved on from this.👍

It does look like self fit out.

But I wonder if they just didn't think.

All the best intentions, but one of those that thought they could reinvent the wheel.

Couple months cruising later, realised they had screwed up. Sat in a marina ever since.