Gas-free boat … any good for Constant Cruising

[Tony Brooks]

From what I read and see, it seems drip feed (pot burner) diesel stoves like the Bubbles need a longer flue than can be accommodated on most narrowboats to get optimum combustion, especially at higher outputs. It also seems the burner pots need very regular cleaning, especially of the almost hidden air holes. I also get the impression that there are no longer 12V pressure jet boilers such as the Kobola available, although it seems large Webasto types may be pressure jet, but they are probably too large for a narrowboat.

 

I agree that with the cost of fitting, the gas could still make this a good buy IF the price is right. I will stick my neck out and say that if the lighting is 240V AC then the "minimum number of strand" standards for the cable may well mean the existing main lighting wiring may well be acceptable for 12V LED lighting. I suspect the water pump will be 12V already, and a decent 240V fridge plus quality inverter should be fine. that just leaves 12V outlets for laptops, pones etc. to be fitted.

 

It all needs careful checking out.

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I doubt that very much, not in my experience anyway. It's just not the way it usually works. 

 

It could do in this case if the price of the boat is depressed by not having a gas cooker by a few grand and being unable to sell it.

[JungleJames]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Really? How many liveaboards do you know? Nearly all I know have one or the other, myself included. They're fine as long as they're used as a supplementary or secondary form of heating.

 

 

 

Hence why, in the rest of my sentence, I admitted I was seemingly in the minority.

 

I just think, personally, a Kabola would be a much better option. As mentioned, as a liveaboard you want backups. Well a Kabola is capable of being an all round much better main heater or back up. Lose a stove, and you are reliant on something outside what it's designed for.

A Webasto/ Eberspacher is not really designed as a main source of permanent heating. Something I'd want as a liveaboard. 

 

But hey, that's me. Not necessarily others.

 

[Tony1]

39 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I doubt that very much, not in my experience anyway. It's just not the way it usually works. 

 

The value of new installations comes through use to those living on or using the boat so it's still shouldn't be seen as "dead money". However the cost of those installations isn't generally recouped (even partially) when the boat is resold.

 

I think that is true with many upgrades, but I disagree in this case.

I think the base value of that boat with its current setup will always be a couple of thousand lower than it would be if it had a stove and gas install. You're not going to get all or even most of your money back, but with those features in place, its always going to fetch a higher price than it would without them (until it gets much older). 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tony1

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

The OP should be aware that there are rules and regulations about boats, at least if she/he knows the rules they can decide to obey them or not, but thay are at least making the decision from having undertaken due dilligence.

 

Whilst there are those on the forum will Poo-Poo it and say 'who cares', or 'who is going to find out', LEGALLY if a non-gas boat is having gas fitted it becomes a 'major craft conversion' (defined as any thing that can affect the safety of the boat) which then requires the boat to have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) undertaken by a suitably approved surveyor.

 

Like any law - you are only fined if you are caught !

 

The cost of the PCA will be between £1000 & £2000 (assuming it passes, does not require any extra work & nothing else is found)

 

As stated you may well 'get away with it, or you may not, it would be your choice.

[blackrose]

23 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think that is true with many upgrades, but I disagree in this case.

I think the base value of that boat with its current setup will always be a couple of thousand lower than it would be if it had a stove and gas install. You're not going to get all or even most of your money back, but with those features in pace, its always going to fetch a higher price then it would without them (until it gets much older). 

 

 

Ok you may be right in this case, I'm not sure. but in general it's unwise to spend money on new installations on the basis or expectation that you're going to get anything back all all when it comes to selling the boat.

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The OP should be aware that there are rules and regulations about boats, at least if she/he knows the rules they can decide to obey them or not, but thay are at least making the decision from having undertaken due dilligence.

 

Whilst there are those on the forum will Poo-Poo it and say 'who cares', or 'who is going to find out', LEGALLY if a non-gas boat is having gas fitted it becomes a 'major craft conversion' (defined as any thing that can affect the safety of the boat) which then requires the boat to have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) undertaken by a suitably approved surveyor.

 

Like any law - you are only fined if you are caught !

 

The cost of the PCA will be between £1000 & £2000 (assuming it passes, does not require any extra work & nothing else is found)

 

As stated you may well 'get away with it, or you may not, it would be your choice.

 

Is this an RCD thing Alan? If so I think it can probably be safely poo-pooed! 🤣

Edited October 30, 2023 by blackrose

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

@Didne go and view other boats, walk away from this one and forget it. 
  Don’t read anymore of the thread about fitting this, fitting that, as the expense and hassle of getting this boat suitable is too much., especially your first boat.
 Everyone’s an expert at fitting other peoples boats and spending other peoples money, but they’re not the ones dealing with the stress and headaches. Please go and view more suitable boats, this boat is not a livaboard and will cost too much to fix. You want to buy a boat and enjoy it, not buy one start ripping it out and getting ripped off doing it up. Good luck👍
 

Edited October 30, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

10 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Did that instruction relate to the engine behind used in conjunction with the Travelpower, or is that just a general warning about the use of that engine regardless?

 

 

All battery charging -- this is from the Beta manual...

 

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Whilst there are those on the forum will Poo-Poo it and say 'who cares', or 'who is going to find out', LEGALLY if a non-gas boat is having gas fitted it becomes a 'major craft conversion' (defined as any thing that can affect the safety of the boat) which then requires the boat to have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) undertaken by a suitably approved surveyor.

 

Like any law - you are only fined if you are caught !

 

The cost of the PCA will be between £1000 & £2000 (assuming it passes, does not require any extra work & nothing else is found)

 

As stated you may well 'get away with it, or you may not, it would be your choice.

The definition of a Major Craft Conversion is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/2 and is rather different.  If it was anything at all that can affect the safety of a boat, there would need to be a lot of PCAs!

 

A post construction assessment is required following a major craft conversion. In this context, it means something that alters the craft to such an extent it may not meet the essential requirements.

 

The essential requirements are in Regulation 6.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/6 and  relates to endangering persons, property and the environment as well as complying with the wider Schedule 1 requirements. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/schedule/1.  The gas requirements are quite modest e.g. no.leaks

 

So, I think it is a leap to say installing gas is always a major craft conversion and therefore required a PCA.  It is quite possible to do gas installation work that would neither be safe nor meet the RCD (e.g  leak) but it is equally possible to change an olive and leave a leak - and not even Alan would say that is a major craft conversion requiring a PCA

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A post construction assessment is required following a major craft conversion. In this context, it means something that alters the craft to such an extent it may not meet the essential requirements.

 

The specifications detail the type and size of piping as well as the means & methods of installation (and of course other things such as being leak-free')

If the system installed is capable of being installed incorrectly, and potentially being non-compliant, then a PCA is required - alternatively (I'd suggest) if a qualified installer certified that it was installed in full compliance with the regulations and that it was 'safe' it would not require a PCA.

 

The boat owner is legally responsible should an 'accident' occur that leads back to work being done, the onus of responsibility is shifted to the surveyor undertaking the PCA, or, if I'm correct, to the 'qualified installer' who certified it as correctly installed and safe.

[ditchcrawler]

I know non of you go there, but from facebook today 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I know non of you go there, but from facebook today 

 

And there was I always being told what a wonderful company Whilton are to deal with.

 

The Facebook report rather reinforces my opinion/experience of them. 

 

I wouldn't touch them with your 'barge pole' let alone mine - It'd probably be stolen along with my fingers.

[manxmike]

4 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

@Didne go and view other boats, walk away from this one and forget it. 
  Don’t read anymore of the thread about fitting this, fitting that, as the expense and hassle of getting this boat suitable is too much., especially your first boat.
 Everyone’s an expert at fitting other peoples boats and spending other peoples money, but they’re not the ones dealing with the stress and headaches. Please go and view more suitable boats, this boat is not a livaboard and will cost too much to fix. You want to buy a boat and enjoy it, not buy one start ripping it out and getting ripped off doing it up. Good luck👍
 

As above, plus one!

If you really want a boat you will be unable to actually use for months and months, which will be a money pit, which will present you with a fresh problem every time you get something sorted, then look for something that isn't going to cost a lot to start with.

A seven year old boat is not going to be cheap even without a gas system installed, following the suggestions offered on here could easily double the cost and could present legal problems (PCA).

There are plenty of boats out there more suited to your requirements - go and find one.

Edited October 30, 2023 by manxmike
missed a word "and"

[JungleJames]

1 hour ago, manxmike said:

As above, plus one!

If you really want a boat you will be unable to actually use for months and months, which will be a money pit, which will present you with a fresh problem every time you get something sorted, then look for something that isn't going to cost a lot to start with.

A seven year old boat is not going to be cheap even without a gas system installed, following the suggestions offered on here could easily double the cost and could present legal problems (PCA).

There are plenty of boats out there more suited to your requirements - go and find one.

Just out of interest.

Why then do plenty of people:

1. Fit new stoves

2. Fit lithium batteries and new alternators (If this one even needs that, we are preaching without knowing the full facts).

 

Why do these other people not get told how stupid it is? Because whilst they may be doing it for different reasons, that is pretty much what's needed as a minimum for this boat. 

If that doubles the cost of the boat, I'd be very very surprised.

 

The OP needs to investigate everything. Not just write it all off.

 

 

 

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The specifications detail the type and size of piping as well as the means & methods of installation (and of course other things such as being leak-free')

Where does one find the detailed specification in the contact of the RCR/PCA?  I can't see it in the legislation.

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

Just out of interest.

Why then do plenty of people:

1. Fit new stoves

2. Fit lithium batteries and new alternators (If this one even needs that, we are preaching without knowing the full facts).

 

Why do these other people not get told how stupid it is? Because whilst they may be doing it for different reasons, that is pretty much what's needed as a minimum for this boat. 

If that doubles the cost of the boat, I'd be very very surprised.

 

The OP needs to investigate everything. Not just write it all off.

 

 

I agree with you that its at least worth further investigation. But I do think a lot depends on the price of this boat compared to a boat of the same age and size, that already has gas and a SF stove. 

If this boat is 10k cheaper than a normal boat, then there's probably enough of a cost saving that its worth buying it and paying for a gas and SF stove install etc. Lets say a SF stove plus install will cost 2.5k, and a gas install plus a cooker will cost what- £2k? So the OP might need to spend 4-5k for the bare essentials. 

And I feel it would be wise with this boat's unusual setup to allow an extra contingency budget- but bear in mind any new boat will have some costs involved in doing some changes you want made.

So if this boat is only 5k cheaper than a standard boat, then there is no incentive at all to take a chance on it.  In fact think you could probably drive a hard bargain with this one. 

I suspect somebody who has the gas and other skills needed will probably snap this up, do the work, and make a bit of profit on it.

But with this boat, the whole decision is based on the price, and the price of the work needed. 

I imagine both big tasks are fairly quick too. My SF stove took 3 days to install.

The OP likes it a lot, and that is also a factor- but not one that should encourage risk-taking. This is a risk for a newbie- it would be great if there was a marine professional who could take a look at the current setup, and give advice on the feasibility and possible complications involved with the install work. 

 

ETA- there is also this query around the PCA issue. Maybe the OP could just email the BSS people and ask? 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tony1

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If the system installed is capable of being installed incorrectly, and potentially being non-compliant, then a PCA is required - alternatively (I'd suggest) if a qualified installer certified that it was installed in full compliance with the regulations and that it was 'safe' it would not require a PCA.

 

Well, anything and everything is capable of being installed correctly.  One could drive a nail through the gas pipe when hanging a picture of you tried.  Your way of looking at it would mean that swapping a cooker on a like-for-like basis would require a PCA as it is definitely possible to do so incorrectly.

 

Your suggestion about no PCA if gas is installed professionally is a very sensible one - but has no firm foundation in the RCR. Either gas installation always requires a PCA, as your previous position or it doesn't always require a PCA.

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The boat owner is legally responsible should an 'accident' occur that leads back to work being done, the onus of responsibility is shifted to the surveyor undertaking the PCA, or, if I'm correct, to the 'qualified installer' who certified it as correctly installed and safe.

Would it not depend, Inthe usual way, on who had been negligent?  There is no strict liability for boat accidents as far as I am aware.

 

More generally, it seems to me, that it all depends on whether work comprises a major craft conversion.  This phrase is defined in the regulations but is not that clear.  Changing the method (e.g. paddle wheels to propellor) is a MCC.  Whilst the definition is paramount, some regard could be given to the words themselves.  For example, it does not say "any modification or alteration" which would doubtless catch a new gas installation.  At the end of the day, adding gas to a boat would not, in usual parlance, amount to a major craft conversion

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tacet

[JungleJames]

7 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I agree with you that its at least worth further investigation. But I do think a lot depends on the price of this boat compared to a boat of the same age and size, that already has gas and a SF stove. 

If this boat is 10k cheaper than a normal boat, then there's probably enough of a cost saving that its worth buying it and paying for a gas and SF stove install etc. Lets say a SF stove plus install will cost 2.5k, and a gas install plus a cooker will cost what- £2k? So the OP might need to spend 4-5k for the bare essentials. 

And I feel it would be wise with this boat's unusual setup to allow an extra contingency budget- but bear in mind any new boat will have some costs involved in doing some changes you want made.

So if this boat is only 5k cheaper than a standard boat, then there is no incentive at all to take a chance on it.  In fact think you could probably drive a hard bargain with this one. 

I suspect somebody who has the gas and other skills needed will probably snap this up, do the work, and make a bit of profit on it.

But with this boat, the whole decision is based on the price, and the price of the work needed. 

I imagine both big tasks are fairly quick too. My SF stove took 3 days to install.

The OP likes it a lot, and that is also a factor- but not one that should encourage risk-taking. 

Or, if not already, future proof it (Ok, poor choice of words) with lithium, and keep it gas free.

You get many benefits once lithium is fitted. Whereas a gas install just gives you a different way of cooking.

 

But a lot depends on how much the boat will be moved, thus keeping batteries topped up without loads of idle running. 

A permanent moorer with no plug in ability, and it's probably a less good idea, as a decent generator is definitely needed, instead of something to investigate in the future.

 

Moving every couple of days, and a small generator may suffice, if needed at all.

 

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, JungleJames said:

Or, if not already, future proof it (Ok, poor choice of words) with lithium, and keep it gas free.

You get many benefits once lithium is fitted. Whereas a gas install just gives you a different way of cooking.

 

But a lot depends on how much the boat will be moved, thus keeping batteries topped up without loads of idle running. 

A permanent moorer with no plug in ability, and it's probably a less good idea, as a decent generator is definitely needed, instead of something to investigate in the future.

 

Moving every couple of days, and a small generator may suffice, if needed at all.

 

 

To be honest James, introducing the idea of lithium batteries does complicate the question a bit.

But that said, if I were a newbie I would be looking to swap to lithium asap anyway- regardless of anything else I did with the boat. I think given that they'll probably last 15-20 years, they are becoming competitive on price with lead acids. Its kind of a no-brainer really. 

And as a liveaboard, if I were the OP I would automatically plan on upgrading to at least 1000w of panels- at the least.

 

I have 1400 watts of panels, and in the summer they give enough energy for most cooking, but I choose to use the excess solar power for heating water, which saves running the engine when not cruising. 

So my personal preference would be to use the solar for hot water, but to still to get a gas cooker installed. And to get lithium batteries regardless.

It was said further up the thread, contingency systems are great on a boat.

There's a cost involved as well- using the engine to generate the charge for cooking (which you'd have to do in winter) would use a lot of diesel, and add many running hours to the engine- so then you've got more frequent services and more engine wear- which you can avoid by installing gas. 

But that's only my personal take on it, others will have different priorities etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ex Brummie]

If the OP really wants to CC, then a lot of the comments will not be as dire as stated by people who consider moving for 2-3 hours every 14 days.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

Where does one find the detailed specification in the contact of the RCR/PCA?  I can't see it in the legislation.

They are not in the legislation, which specifies the requirements in high level terms only. British Marine has produced a code of practice (or some similar title) which sets out one way (but not the only way) of complying with the RCR. This code essentially lists large numbers of standards which each component of the boat should comply with. In practice only the largest of volume boatbuilders could possibly have the resources to acquire, read, understand and fully apply all these standards, so the average 'cottage industry' narrow boat builder is winging it with general good practice, but not every I dotted and t crossed.

[Didne]

Do you know, I’m so pleased I came on here and asked the question … I’d absolutely no idea how complex my seemingly simple solution might turn out to be, and the repercussions involved … and how amazingly helpful you all would be … yes, I will (well 99% anyway !’) walk away from the gas-free boat … it is an interesting conundrum, but I feel you are right in that it is too much of a project to get involved in for my first boat … and yet I can’t help but be intrigued and interested by the twists and turns this conversation is taking and the interest it is generating … if nothing else I’m learning bucketloads from you all already … a lot of it is way above my head at the moment, but I think if I stick around here I’ll get there eventually … can’t thank you all enough … Wow … xxx
 

 

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

ETA- there is also this query around the PCA issue. Maybe the OP could just email the BSS people and ask? 

PCA (and RCR compliance in general) is a matter for your local trading standards department, and the BSS have no role, other than they accept RCR certification in lieu of a BSC for new boat. I can't see them expressing an opinion on the PCA issue.

[Didne]

Btw apparantly it does have 12 v …

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 minutes ago, Didne said:

Btw apparantly it does have 12 v …

How much is the owner asking,Have you a link to it?