Gas-free boat … any good for Constant Cruising

[JungleJames]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Well that would be a rather ignorant misapprehension. Since a properly installed, tested and operated LPG system isn't dangerous, avoiding one on a boat is of no benefit.

 

Yes you're right there doesn't necessarily need to be a benefit, but there shouldn't be a disbenefit, and I'm afraid not having gas for year round liveaboard use is definitely a disadvantage. In my opinion anyway.

I'm sorry, but I've explained how gas is not necessary.

To say it is definitely a disadvantage to be gas free is incorrect.

 

How, if I had a diesel cooker onboard, is it an advantage to have a gas system? It's a waste, and a disbenefit.

Ditto if I have enough electricity to not need gas, to some people at least.

 

As for saying there should not be a disbenefit if you just decide you fancy something a bit different. Wrong.

1- If you fancy something a bit different to the norm, it matters diddly squat if there is a disadvantage to it somewhere. It is whatever leaves you happy.

2- Everything has a disadvantage, literally everything. Gas has a disadvantage. Heck, we should just kill ourselves if we can't do anything that has a disadvantage. Oh wait no, there might be a disadvantage to that as well. We are screwed.

 

Lastly. Whilst you are right gas is perfectly safe. It is incorrect to say safety cannot be used as a benefit.

To you it isn't.

But to others who look at things differently, it could really be a benefit.

 

Let's say someone has just escaped a gas explosion at home. 

Quite understandably they are going to be very nervous around gas. On their newbuild canal boat they may go gas free for the reason of safety, and this is a very fair benefit to them.

 

What your post probably should have said is-

"Despite all these reasons, I still would not have a gas free boat". 

 

Which is fair enough.

But everything has advantages and disadvantages, and done right both options will work on a canal boat. Both of them are the correct decision to whomever made that decision.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

41 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If you're going to have all this anyway for propulsion on an electric/series hybrid boat like mine then it's a no-brainer because it's "free" (cheaper than gas, anyway), electric cooking means no gas locker or cylinders or piping or regulations, and I for one prefer an electric oven/induction hob.

 

So depending on circumstances, a "gas-free" boat can either make no sense at all ( @blackrose )  or a great deal of sense ( @IanD ) -- as usual with boats there's no single "right" or "wrong" answer... 😉

But it’s not free for a lot of the year, it’s only free when there is enough solar to charge the battery bank, then if moving your more then likely going to need to run the generator, as you found out on your recent move, looks like your generator was running about 4.5hrs a day, so having an electric boat doesn’t mean a free system most of the year. Also even when on shore power and no solar there will be a large cost for an all electric boat if used as a livaboard. So for cooking a gas system could work out a lot cheaper then an all electric cooking system.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

I'm sorry, but I've explained how gas is not necessary.

To say it is definitely a disadvantage to be gas free is incorrect.

 

How, if I had a diesel cooker onboard, is it an advantage to have a gas system? It's a waste, and a disbenefit.

Ditto if I have enough electricity to not need gas, to some people at least.

 

As for saying there should not be a disbenefit if you just decide you fancy something a bit different. Wrong.

1- If you fancy something a bit different to the norm, it matters diddly squat if there is a disadvantage to it somewhere. It is whatever leaves you happy.

2- Everything has a disadvantage, literally everything. Gas has a disadvantage. Heck, we should just kill ourselves if we can't do anything that has a disadvantage. Oh wait no, there might be a disadvantage to that as well. We are screwed.

 

Lastly. Whilst you are right gas is perfectly safe. It is incorrect to say safety cannot be used as a benefit.

To you it isn't.

But to others who look at things differently, it could really be a benefit.

 

Let's say someone has just escaped a gas explosion at home. 

Quite understandably they are going to be very nervous around gas. On their newbuild canal boat they may go gas free for the reason of safety, and this is a very fair benefit to them.

 

What your post probably should have said is-

"Despite all these reasons, I still would not have a gas free boat". 

 

Which is fair enough.

But everything has advantages and disadvantages, and done right both options will work on a canal boat. Both of them are the correct decision to whomever made that decision.

 

"Done right" is the key -- which means not needing to run the generator to do cooking/provide power because the batteries/inverter can't support the demand. This was common in older "gas-free" boats, but not nowadays.

[JungleJames]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would point out that the fact it has a lithium battery bank only came late in the conversation, and even then the capacity given made no sense for a gas fitted boat, let alone a gas free one.  On the facts as first presented, it did look a problem buy because it seemed winter charging could only be via the alternator(s) and/or Travelpower. It was the likely recharge time required for an LA bank that persuaded me it was a poor buy.

At the beginning the type of battery was never mentioned, and the type of heating was not mentioned (bar an electric fire).

So at the beginning we never had enough facts to make a decision. 

Assuming it had lead acid was just that, an assumption.

Just like I assumed it probably had lithium, but that was just that, an assumption.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

"Done right" is the key -- which means not needing to run the generator to do cooking/provide power because the batteries/inverter can't support the demand. This was common in older "gas-free" boats, but not nowadays.

 

I think this again misses the vital point. You can have the largest battery bank in the world, but if the recharging procedure can't support the load, then all you end up with is destroyed batteries. It seems to me too many seem blind to the recharging required for any type of boat and only concern themselves with bank capacity.

[JungleJames]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

"Done right" is the key -- which means not needing to run the generator to do cooking/provide power because the batteries/inverter can't support the demand. This was common in older "gas-free" boats, but not nowadays.

Yes, but that is the same for everything, correct?

A gas install has to be done right, so as to make sure you don't have to be permanently connected to a gas main!!!!

Anyways, we are in agreeance I think.

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think this again misses the vital point. You can have the largest battery bank in the world, but if the recharging procedure can't support the load, then all you end up with is destroyed batteries. It seems to me too many seem blind to the recharging required for any type of boat and only concern themselves with bank capacity.

Not on this thread good sir.

It's been clear from anyone suggesting it, that a proper charging infrastructure is necessary.

In fact, I think boats should have a separate built in generator to avoid idle running of main engines! 

 

However yes, overall on this forum, the impression you get, is the impression I get.

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

But it’s not free for a lot of the year, it’s only free when there is enough solar to charge the battery bank, then if moving your more then likely going to need to run the generator, as you found out on your recent move looks like your generator was running about 4.5hrs a day, so having an electric boat doesn’t mean a free system most of the year.

 

I meant "free" to install; the costs of running such a system are actually a bit cheaper than gas, even if all the power comes from the generator -- and are pretty small anyway as pointed out by the gas enthusiasts 😉

 

The 4.5 hours a day was because I was cruising fast and continuously for long days and using a lot of energy for propulsion, an average of 22kWh/day from the generator including domestic use (cooking, inverter zero-load, AC generally). I estimate that cooking was less than 10% of this, 2kWh/day at most.

 

If you want to compare costs, the generator uses about 0.4l/hr per kW generated, so electricity costs about 44p/kWh. A 13kg Calor refill costs about £45, which is £3.50 per kg, and this contains 13kWh/kg which is 27p/kWh. However with gas rings -- most of the use for me -- only about 40% of the energy in the fuel ends up in the pan/food, meaning 68p/kWh delivered. Induction hobs are typically 85% efficient, meaning 52p/kWh delivered, 25% cheaper than gas.

 

And of course if any part of the total energy consumed comes from solar -- very little for me in October (less than 10%) but will be much higher for more normal cruising in summer -- then the difference gets even bigger.

 

As so often the actual numbers matter rather than vague hand-waving statements... 😉

Edited November 3, 2023 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

But are your numbers a true reflection of how it actually works in the real world?

 I would always have gas for cooking even on an all electric boat, but everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another👍

Edited November 3, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

But are your numbers a true reflection of how it actually works in the real world?

 I would always have gas for cooking even on an all electric boat, but everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another👍

Which actual numbers are you disputing? The ones about cooking energy costs are factual and easily available, and are true regardless of what else onboard power is used for.

 

(and if plugged in on shoreline electric is cheaper still, I pay 25p/kWh)

 

Your preference is for gas cooking, mine is for electric -- neither is right or wrong because, well, preference is a personal opinion... 😉

Edited November 3, 2023 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Well one is the cost of electric 44p per Kw, that varies considerably, so you cant use that as a accurate figure, I pay 62p per Kw. The price of a 13kg gas bottle my last two £49 and £54 so not everything is consistent. Then the cost of diesel anything between £1:10-£1:50 per litre, so not everything set is set in stone to get a true reflection of costings.

Edited November 3, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Well one is the cost of electric 44p per Kw, that varies considerably, so you cant use that as a accurate figure, I pay 62p per Kw.

You misunderstood what I wrote -- 44p/kWh is for electricity from the generator, which is what you were talking about in the post I replied to.

 

For shoreline I'm paying £50 for 200kWh which is 25p/kWh.

Edited November 3, 2023 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Lady M said:

 

It may be that gas is seen as dangerous so better avoided.

 

My wife (she is the one that does the cooking) doesn't like gas cookers, wouldn't have one in a house and doesn't want one on a boat. Over the past 20 years I have offered many times to fit one

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

You misunderstood what I wrote -- 44p/kWh is for electricity from the generator.

 

For shoreline I'm paying £50 for 200kWh which is 25p/kWh.

But that figure will vary with the price of diesel, just as a bottle of gas, so the calculations of cost could vary both ways.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

But that figure will vary with the price of diesel, just as a bottle of gas, so the calculations of cost could vary both ways.

<sigh> obviously true -- for example, your cost for gas is higher than the one I gave.

 

Allowing for this, it's still true that the cost of onboard electric cooking with power from a generator is comparable to or more likely cheaper than cooking with Calor gas.

 

With shoreline power it can be anywhere from a lot cheaper (using my prices) to comparable (using your prices).

 

Solar power will reduce the cost in both cases, depending what fraction of the power comes from it.

 

In any case the cost of cooking is small compared to heating (and propulsion when cruising) because both these use many times more energy than cooking.

 

Running cost for cooking is not a good reason to reject going gas-free... 😉

Edited November 3, 2023 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> obviously true -- for example, your cost for gas is higher than the one I gave.

 

Allowing for this, it's still true that the cost of onboard electric cooking with power from a generator is comparable to or more likely cheaper than Calor gas.

 

With shoreline power it can be anywhere from a lot cheaper (using my prices) to comparable (using your prices).

 

Solar power will reduce the cost in both cases, depending what fraction of the power comes from it.

 

In any case the cost of cooking is small compared to heating (and propulsion when cruising) because both these use many times more energy than cooking.

 

Running cost for cooking is not a good reason to reject going gas-free... 😉

The OP has decided to walk away from this boat, so obviously not the best choice for CCing in her opinion and not worth the extra investment to make it so.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

The OP has decided to walk away from this boat, so obviously not the best choice for CCing in her opinion and not worth the extra investment to make it so.

And a sensible decision that was 🙂

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

And a sensible decision that was 🙂

👍have a good weekend 👍

[David Mack]

On 03/11/2023 at 02:10, JungleJames said:

My next question would be, do I really need to cook with gas when I have the ability to cook with electricity? I will save a little on what is an expensive newbuild, I can give myself extra storage space, as what would be a gas locker can be given over to storage. I also avoid lugging gas bottles around, and I have 1 less system to possibly maintain. A system that I really do not need now.

 

An installed generator will surely take up at least as much space as a gas locker, so no extra storage space.

Yes 1 less system, but a generator will take a lot more to maintain, needing regular oil and filter changes etc. as well as being more costly to repair if anything does go wrong,  whereas with gas you probably only need to change the hose tails and regulator every few years.

If you have the generator anyway for other reasons, or have a hybrid boat, electric cooking may make sense. For everyone else it's just more cost to install and maintain for little if any benefit.

Edited November 4, 2023 by David Mack

[JungleJames]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

An installed generator will surely take up at least as much space as a gas locker, so no extra storage space.

Yes 1 less system, but a generator will take a lot more to maintain, needing regular oil and filter changes etc. as well as being more costly to repair if anything does go wrong,  whereas with gas you probably only need to change the hose tails and regulator every few years.

If you have the generator anyway for other reasons, or have a hybrid boat, electric cooking may make sense. For everyone else it's just more cost to install and maintain for little if any benefit.

I have to admit I was thinking of a traditional engine room and say putting a generator where it wouldn't take up usable space. Or as I have also seen. A modern version of a back cabin, with the gennie under a raised floor.

 

But I accept in certain cases, you are correct. 

 

The benefit of this could be looked at another way as well. You say it's only worthwhile going gas free if you have a gennie for something else.

But- the other way of looking at it, is if you go full on gas free with a gennie, it brings its own indirect benefits. You flip your reasoning on its head, and it still counts.

To me, a gennie is a given if building a newbuild anyway, and it has nothing to do with going gas free. It's to do with efficient charging in the winter, because using a main engine in idle is both inefficient and no good for the engine.

 

Cost of maintaining the gennie? Instead of comparing it to the cost of changing gas hoses (Which can be used in the comparison as well), I'd be comparing it with the ease or not of charging batteries with the main engine (longer noisy hours with ME), the reduced fuel consumption, the reduced hours on the main engine, and the fact the main engine will be happier with reduced idle hours. 

 

Only if you refuse to see other benefits would you compare costs purely with gas. I see a multitude of benefits and flexibility, so I don't just compare costs with gas.

 

Of course, if you are constantly on the move during winter, or constantly plugged in to a shore supply, and have solar for summer, then a gennie is of much less benefit to you, and you'd likely go with gas cooking.

 

Its horses for courses, and to say a gennie is definitely more expensive than gas is refusing to see the other side. 

 

Just like I said to the OP, if you already have decent lithium setup, and with the travelpower, the boat in question could be very suitable if you stay on the move. Less so if you tie up for 2 weeks at a time.

[IanD]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

An installed generator will surely take up at least as much space as a gas locker, so no extra storage space.

Yes 1 less system, but a generator will take a lot more to maintain, needing regular oil and filter changes etc. as well as being more costly to repair if anything does go wrong,  whereas with gas you probably only need to change the hose tails and regulator every few years.

If you have the generator anyway for other reasons, or have a hybrid boat, electric cooking may make sense. For everyone else it's just more cost to install and maintain for little if any benefit.

 

And of course if you're going to have a generator plus big LFP battery bank plus high-power inverter plus solar for house-quality AC (including electric cooking) on a new-build gas-free boat, you might as well add an electric motor (because you've got almost everything else needed already) and not have a diesel propulsion engine at all -- cheaper, quieter, less pollution, lower running costs, less maintainance... 😉

 

But installing all this in an existing boat makes little sense (and would cost a fortune!) if you've already got an engine that works and gas cooking -- so for most people, cooking with gas is the obvious choice.

 

BTW a decent inbuilt gennie costs *way* more than a gas installation... 😞

Edited November 4, 2023 by IanD

[JungleJames]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And of course if you're going to have a generator plus big LFP battery bank plus high-power inverter plus solar for house-quality AC (including electric cooking) on a new-build gas-free boat, you might as well add an electric motor (because you've got almost everything else needed already) and not have a diesel propulsion engine at all -- cheaper, quieter, less pollution, lower running costs, less maintainance... 😉

 

But installing all this in an existing boat makes little sense (and would cost a fortune!) if you've already got an engine that works and gas cooking -- so for most people, cooking with gas is the obvious choice.

 

BTW a decent inbuilt gennie costs *way* more than a gas installation... 😞

Good God man, noooooo.

 

A lovely Gardner in its own engine room is still required.

Anyway, wouldn't have that big a battery bank or generator. Waste of space!

Because once you have your eye candy of a Gardner you may as well use it!!!

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by JungleJames

[Didne]

Errrrmmm …. right … well … I still haven’t got a boat yet and I’ve had a quote from a proper gas-safe boat fitter for getting gas and a solid fuel stove fitted on this boat and it wasn’t as ridiculous a price as I thought it might be … although I gather getting new gas bottles can be tricky ? … and the boat is still available … so I do realise some of you consider the gas and solid-fuel stove to be unnecessary, but they are things I would like in a boat … So I’m considering this one again … so my question is … Are their any other things about the set up to be wary of ? … My untrained naive novice thoughts are  ;

 

batteries … lithium … I sort of understand that batteries need care (I’m not entirely sure what that entails) and that if they’re not cared for properly they die and being lithium will be tres expensive to replace … is that right ? … if I’m not living on the boat straight away (probably be a couple of years before I can do that) am I likely to have mega problems looking after the batteries ?

 

this travelpower thing … I’m not going to pretend to understand it … I gather it somehow gives me 240v power when I’m not on shorepower … I don’t feel a compelling need to have that available too often at the mo, I’m not planning running a washing machine or using an electric oven when not on shorepower … but there was mention that the travelpower thing can prematurely wear out the engine … so can it be disengaged from the engine to prevent that when not needed ?
 

Anything else about this boat that might make it tricky ?
 

Thank you o wise ones, … Didne … xxx

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1. If the lithium charging set up is spot on then it will look after the batteries. That really means an installation that ignores US red neck blogs and use someone who really understands it all. With the correct set up I would suggest it is many times more difficult to wreck lithiums than lead acids. Long life from lead acids require hard work and a good deal of knowledge.

 

2. The Travelpower is really a mini 240 AC power station or genitor that can supply your AC loads when the engine is running. If there is no AC load switched on then the Travelpower will generate zero electricity, so effectively turned off, but note it might be used to power the charger for the lithium batteries, and if so it can't really be turned off.

 

I think the "wear out the engine" thing comes from an appalling marinisation by Beta and customers ignoring the instructions about minimum running speed. Regular inspecting how tight the pulley is on the crankshaft should minimise the danger of wrecking the engine.

 

All in my view, there are probably other views.

[JungleJames]

Yep.

The lithiums should be fine many years into the future, so long as everything is set up correctly. 

 

So a decent Battery Management System (BMS) with cell balancing.

It is likely integrated into the batteries on the boat you are looking at. How good it is, will be open to debate. Whether it includes cell balancing will have to be checked. Unfortunately going by some of the answers the broker has given in the past, I don't trust that they could give you proper answers to this. 

Some installers prefer to fit a trusted BMS external to the batteries. 

 

Next is some form of alternator controller, to try and make sure the alternator isn't stressed by the charging of the batteries.

I'm not exactly sure how these work with TravelPowers. I assume in a similar fashion. 

 

If you really wanted to be sure of the setup, and how reliable it's going to be, you'd want it to be looked over by someone that knows their stuff. 

Or you could just trust it was setup right in the first place!! Up to you.

 

I'd be inclined to assume if it was setup from newbuild and is still working now, it has probably been done correctly. 

 

Travelpower?

Like anything, don't put high loads on it with the engine at idle.

But engines shouldn't be run in idle purely for the purpose of charging batteries anyway.

Yes people do, but the engine isn't thanking you for it. Thankfully with lithium batteries, you should have less need to sit alongside the tow path running your engine in idle.

 

 

 

[Stroudwater1]

Despite the quote being apparently not too bad have you tried looking for a boat already fitted with gas and a Heritage style range? If you look under heritage on apolloduck you will find  narrowboats with them fitted. 
Quotes can be inclined to go up once the fitter looks more closely but Im sure you realise that ?